INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Vorschlaghammer]

Regarding high recoil of the firearm,I want to say something bout 7.62 NATO.

7.62 x 51mm NATO was designed in '50s in order to replace larger .30-06 springfield (in metric convention,7.62 x 63mm) round that had been servicing as standard issue battle rifle cartridge of USA since World War I.Their initial goal was to replace it with a cartridge that has at least SAME ballistic properties as itself if not more so in order to do that what they did was,they took empty casing of .30-06 and filled it with newer improved propellants and primers that significantly improved its performance,but also made it little heavier,so they downscaled it a little bit and fill up again with newer propellants to such amount that kept its ballistic properties (muzzle velocities,amount of pressure created by it etc.) to almost same (though,a little bit improved) levels.This simple 'jugaad' reduced weight of already heavier .30-06 as well as shortened it too,while also improved its performance a little bit then former one.Hence,a new cartridge was born designated as 7.62 x 51mm NATO.

So,basically we're firing an upgraded .30-06 cartridge from our OFB 7.62 that was already panned for having insane amount of recoil.

The sad part is that the idea of making bullets lighter for self loading guns isn't new. In fact the Pedersen rifle that competed with M1 Garand and went toe to toe upto the final round of testing was chambered in .276 pedersen, which was actually somewhat superior to the 6.8 SPC that is being talked about these days. US Ordnance in those days was still romanticizing about long range battles fought with bolt action rifles, and continued with .30-06. After WW2 ended, almost all major participants analysed that almost all the firefights didn't need full power cartridges and initially were going the intermediate way. The first model of the FAL was chambered in 7.92x33 kurz from StG44. The british were working on their EM-2 bullpup, and created the excellent .280 Enfield cartridge which had a perfect balance in range, stopping power, and recoil. But then big bro US stepped in and pretty much forced NATO to adopt the 7.62x51 which is essentially .30-06 with a half inch shorter case. And not less than 2 decades after that US abandoned the 51 and adopted 5.56. And now 40 years later we're back to square 1.

Goes to tell how different factors hold back progress.

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

@Kunal Biswas Since you have the most experience handling the INSAS here, which pattern of magazine and magazine release do you think would be ergonomically better for the OFB rifle ? AK style nose-in-rock-back mags and mag release lever at the back of the mag well, or AR15 style straight push into extended mag well with push button release on the side ?

Also the OFB rifle mags look horrible. How tough could it be to just buy one commercial magpul 308 magazine from the US market and use that as a template here ?

 

[Johny_Baba]

The sad part is that the idea of making bullets lighter for self loading guns isn't new. In fact the Pedersen rifle that competed with M1 Garand and went toe to toe upto the final round of testing was chamber in .276 pedersen, which was actually somewhat superior to the 6.8 SPC that is being talked about these days. US Ordnance in those days was still romanticizing about long range battles fought with bolt action rifles, and continued with .30-06. After WW2 ended, almost all major participants analysed that almost all the firefights didn't need full power cartridges and initially were going the intermediate way. The first model of the FAL was chambered in 7.92x33 kurz from StG44. The british were working on their EM-2 bullpup, and created the excellent .280 Enfield cartridge which had a perfect balance in range, stopping power, and recoil. But then big bro US stepped in and pretty much forced NATO to adopt the 7.62x51 which is essentially .30-06 with a half inch shorter case. And not less than 2 decades after that US abandoned the 51 and adopted 5.56.

Goes to tell how different factors hold back progress.

Right brother.

Those damn 'muricans have ruined the assault rifle concept by first forcing overpowered 7.62 x 51mm,then forcing underpowered 5.56 x 45mm upon NATO,which eventually spread to whole world like a disease.

You want to know the name of culprit ?

Colonel René Studler

This highly Ambitious man was near his retirement during those time and wanted to leave a legacy that would be remembered for ever,and his legacy was 7.62 x 51mm round and M14 battle rifle.

This so called 'Armorer of the Free World' had doomed very first attempts to make a perfect firearm that was meant to fire 'TRUE' intermediate rounds.

FN FAL in .280 British could've become a remarkable assault rifle but alas!

For more information,read the book 'The FN FAL Battle Rifle' at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwvgfoEniBEtNjFTdkdOMkxsVms

 

[Johny_Baba]

@Kunal Biswas Since you have the most experience handling the INSAS here, which pattern of magazine and magazine release do you think would be ergonomically better for the OFB rifle ? AK style nose-in-rock-back mags and mag release lever at the back of the mag well, or AR15 style straight push into extended mag well with push button release on the side ?

Also the OFB rifle mags look horrible. How tough could it be to just buy one commercial magpul 308 magazine from the US market and use that as a template here ?

Though i'm a keyboard warrior,from what ever i happen to know bout firearms I would say AK style magazines and mag releases are wayyy better than those AR style STANAG mags and push button mag releases.

That way of holding magazines in place is more reliable and sturdy than AR style push button release mags.During inception of AR-15 and its initial day in Vietnam,there were numerous complaints of loose magazine fittings in mag well and in some cases magazines used to drop out of mag well on its own.Soldiers were advised to not tie their magazines in 'jungle style' as it happened to increase load upon mag release spring and loosen it up,which creates malfunctions.Though they've pretty much fixed that problem since very long,it is still less reliable than AK style magazine release.

What AK lacks is magazine follower that actuates bolt hold open devices for 'quicker mag changes'.Some variation of AK,most remarkably initial prototypes of Zastava M70 rifle actually had a BHO and 'Yugo mags' that had such magazine followers,but they dropped the plan as it was more costly to produce than normal AKs.Though it does not mean AK couldn't have it.Just look at Sig SG550 family of firearm.I really love that weapon.Wish we had adopted it as standard issue firearm.

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

Though i'm a keyboard warrior,from what ever i happen to know bout firearms I would say AK style magazines and mag releases are wayyy better than those AR style STANAG mags and push button mag releases.

That way of holding magazines in place is more reliable and sturdy than AR style push button release mags.During inception of AR-15 and its initial day in Vietnam,there were numerous complaints of loose magazine fittings in mag well and in some cases magazines used to drop out of mag well on its own.Soldiers were advised to not tie their magazines in 'jungle style' as it happened to increase load upon mag release spring and loosen it up,which creates malfunctions.Though they've pretty much fixed that problem since very long,it is still less reliable than AK style magazine release.

What AK lacks is magazine follower that actuates bolt hold open devices for 'quicker mag changes'.Some variation of AK,most remarkably initial prototypes of Zastava M70 rifle actually had a BHO and 'Yugo mags' that had such magazine followers,but they dropped the plan as it was more costly to produce than normal AKs.Though it does not mean AK couldn't have it.Just look at Sig SG550 family of firearm.I really love that weapon.Wish we had adopted it as standard issue firearm.

Makes sense. Spetsnaz troops allegedly do AK pushups and the same hasn't been heard about the AR platform. I was going by the capability of the AR platform where you don't need to break your sight line, and could just press the button with right index finger, mag drops, grab spare mag with left hand, push it up in mag well and press the bolt release. In terms of ergonomics it's real neat. About mag follower based BHO, won't the bolt go forward when you take out the empty mag ? Then anyway you have to charge again with a fresh mag. Receiver embedded bolt catch like the SG550 seem a better solution.

And it is said that Mikhail Kalashnikov invented the AK, the Belgians made it better with the FNC, and then the Swiss perfected it into the SG550.

Edit: If you mean something like this

then the bulletproof build quality of the mags might diminish. It all depends on the integrity of the magazine tab.

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

This might be off-topic, but the 1995 movie "Heat" had one of the most realistic gunfight scenes in movie history. The stunt coordinator was an ex SAS guy and insisted on using real guns with blanks.


In this scene the sounds of the guns are as authentic as it gets in a movie. The sound of the shots echoing from the buildings add to the realism. It's not 100% accurate cause blanks don't recoil, but atleast something.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Makes sense. Spetsnaz troops allegedly do AK pushups and the same hasn't been heard about the AR platform. I was going by the capability of the AR platform where you don't need to break your sight line, and could just press the button with right index finger, mag drops, grab spare mag with left hand, push it up in mag well and press the bolt release. In terms of ergonomics it's real neat. About mag follower based BHO, won't the bolt go forward when you take out the empty mag ? Then anyway you have to charge again with a fresh mag. Receiver embedded bolt catch like the SG550 seem a better solution.

And it is said that Mikhail Kalashnikov invented the AK, the Belgians made it better with the FNC, and then the Swiss perfected it into the SG550.

AK style mags can be changed fast if mag release is made for that purpose.Look at magazine release of Polish Beryl.

This big paddle makes changing mags as faster as any other AR-15.

Regarding BHO i meant same,Receiver embedded BHOs,just like AR and SG550.It can even be made ambidextrous for example Bushmaster ACR.

Even in AKs,attempts have made to attach ambidextrous bolt hold open/bolt releases for example Early Variant of AK-12. (Watch at 1:32)

BTW here's video of Former Spetsnaz operative Sonny Puzikas doing 'AK Pushups'

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

AK style mags can be changed fast if mag release is made for that purpose.Look at magazine release of Polish Beryl.

This big paddle makes changing mags as faster as any other AR-15.

Regarding BHO i meant same,Receiver embedded BHOs,just like AR and SG550.It can even be made ambidextrous for example Bushmaster ACR.

Even in AKs,attempts have made to attach ambidextrous bolt hold open/bolt releases for example Early Variant of AK-12. (Watch at 1:32)

BTW here's video of Former Spetsnaz operative Sonny Puzikas doing 'AK Pushups'

Sadly the AK-12 seems shelved for now. Maybe the Russians are short on cash or have too many AK-74s sitting around. And the amazing thing about Sonny in the video is that the mag isn't even made of steel, instead brown bakelite. Makes one wonder what the hell was OFB doing when INSAS polymer mags cracked in Kargil.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Sadly the AK-12 seems shelved for now. Maybe the Russians are short on cash or have too many AK-74s sitting around. And the amazing thing about Sonny in the video is that the mag isn't even made of steel, instead brown bakelite. Makes one wonder what the hell was OFB doing when INSAS polymer mags cracked in Kargil.

A correction.

That magazine is called as 'Bakelite' magazine as it happens to have finish and colour of bakelite,but in reality they're made of glass reinforced polymers and epoxy resins.

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

A correction.

That magazine is called as 'Bakelite' magazine as it happens to have finish and colour of bakelite,but in reality they're made of glass reinforced polymers and epoxy resins.

Ah my mistake then. Epoxy resin with fibre reinforcement is as good as concrete since certain epoxies are strong enough to glue car chassis parts. Even our familiar Araldite is hard as rock when cured.

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

................................

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I think both are fine, Its up-to men in boots what they are used to ..

The magazine is heavy, Not sure why they don`t got fiber magazine as we have for 1b1, MICWS also feature the same ..

Their is no problem making a good magazine in country, We already do ..

@Kunal Biswas Since you have the most experience handling the INSAS here, which pattern of magazine and magazine release do you think would be ergonomically better for the OFB rifle ? AK style nose-in-rock-back mags and mag release lever at the back of the mag well, or AR15 style straight push into extended mag well with push button release on the side ?

Also the OFB rifle mags look horrible. How tough could it be to just buy one commercial magpul 308 magazine from the US market and use that as a template here ?

 

[Vijyes]

I think both are fine, Its up-to men in boots what they are used to ..

The magazine is heavy, Not sure why they don`t got fiber magazine as we have for 1b1, MICWS also feature the same ..

Their is no problem making a good magazine in country, We already do ..

Why Indians use 20 round magazines instead of 30?30 rounds magazine is better in terms of compactness (lower packaging)

 

[Kchontha]

Indian army uses 20 round magazine in its standard issued insas rifle because of weight carrying issue of individual soldiers. Across the world soldiers on an average carry one third of its body weight, the Indian soldiers far exceeds this. Additional weight on the magazines means more wieight in addition to each soldier carrying about 40 kg in battle which will impinge on manoeuvrability.

 

[cobra commando]

Despite the funding, OFB workshops are in 1800 conditions ..

They should learn from Pvt sector in this regards ..

Sandeep Unnithan:

"This is the range where the OFB tests each of its ARs, pistols and shotguns before they are despatched to customers. I've literally seen a thousand rounds being shot here in the short time that I was here. The first batch of 20 7.62X51 ARs are being proof tested here."

 

[Anikastha]

This might be off-topic, but the 1995 movie "Heat" had one of the most realistic gunfight scenes in movie history. The stunt coordinator was an ex SAS guy and insisted on using real guns with blanks.


In this scene the sounds of the guns are as authentic as it gets in a movie. The sound of the shots echoing from the buildings add to the realism. It's not 100% accurate cause blanks don't recoil, but atleast something.

Yea saw this....best bank robbery scene evrr.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00LD using Tapatalk

 

[Raj Malhotra]

The design philosophy of JVPC is better than INSAS as the lower receiver falls away, to field strip the weapon. This approach is adopted by practically all new designs, as it allows the sights mounted on top receiver cover to be more stable/fixed in relation to barrel.

 

[Mangal]

Shooting the new OFB 7.62x51 AR


Published on Aug 4, 2017
designed and developed in response to the Indian Army's requirement for a new 7.62 NATO AR.

================


Published on Aug 3, 2017
The INSAS 1B & 1B1 entered service in 1994 and continues to be the standard service weapon since 1999.

I think the 7.62×51 platform is good and looks rugged. One can tell just by looking at the way it is designed that its a good option to choose. The thing is the assault/ battel rifles have already reached a point in technological advancement where the factors that distinguish one rifle better from another are very few. We should not only be looking at the fit and finish of the weapon system. The current OFB rifle should be selected with the required optics and UBGL and given to soldiers. If any changes are suggested by our soldiers we can incorporate that over the period of time. We did this with INSAS in the initial stages and then with Tavors in early 2000. This would result in an excellent battle tested rifle as per Indian army's needs.
One more thing I would like to point out is the excellent stoppage record that the INSAS family rifles have shown in the previous competition.

 

[Raj Malhotra]

Indian army uses 20 round magazine in its standard issued insas rifle because of weight carrying issue of individual soldiers. Across the world soldiers on an average carry one third of its body weight, the Indian soldiers far exceeds this. Additional weight on the magazines means more wieight in addition to each soldier carrying about 40 kg in battle which will impinge on manoeuvrability.

20 Round Magzine is to keep height of weapon low when firing in prone position.

 

[Shaitan]

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