Indian Special Forces

[FalconSlayers]

@abingdonboy sir I respect your views and even I am in very much for of extreme modernization of our sf as you can see in my previous post
But your view on Chinese sf that can outperform us by using advanced training and latest equipments by copying west is not possible
That mordern training with taking other countries example rather than experiencing your own is not possible
China can or may outperform any American counterpart but in sf they can't challenge even Somalian sf(infact they are very good)
For this need to experience bullet coming towards you in intentions of killing you, you need to experience casualties, failure, has to experience war and that's why even America having more advanced tech is also spending billions for experience
Equipment and advanced training is based on terrain and type of warfare you experience not what you copy from other country's warfare
Then only you will know how to fight fiercely with anger, cruelty and they will know the way to survive in difficult warfare
If I am wrong, sorry but thats what I know so if you feel wrong then it's your view and I will not reply further this

Exactly, focussing on training only is like cramming and having experience means understanding it.

 

[pipebomb]

Reliability aside, versatility is the cornerstone of any infantry's standard platform. The LAC is different in that it places heavy emphasis on ranged engagements due to it's exclusively mountainous terrain, meanwhile the LOC has open peaks and ridges, forests, lakes etc that require versatility from your small arms capability. Logistically it's an unnecessary pain to outfit and distribute your units with different platforms and ammunition within the same geographic location, never mind the training. Therefore, the guideline has evolved around the world to adapt the same platform to perform within the deployed AO with some exceptions (again, like the LAC). Example, US troops posted in the middle of nowhere in Afghanistan would most likely use the M16A4 with a magnified optic due to the rocky and open ground for kilometers, while those expected to deploy in more urban terrain or deployed in a FOB outside but still near a city would be using the M4A1 and adapting it accordingly with an ACOG/LPVO and RMR to bring that long-short effectiveness. SIG-716 aside, It makes little sense to deviate into two different platforms on the basis of a standard rifle and carbine. The training and logistics would be and is torturous, especially considering troops don't spend a lot of time down range here. 5.56 x 45mm platforms, especially the AR-15 styled ones are incredibly versatile and user friendly. It's not that there isn't a good 7.62 x 39 platform out there, a modrrnized variant of the VZ.58 would blow the AK out of the water, but that's a pipe dream.

Exactly, the choice of 7.62x39 is the problem. And sad part is no one can question them even if IA had chosen .22l.

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

Is looking like a malnourished 15 yr old from Bihar one of the enlisting criteria for PLA

You sure that is an appropriate statement to make?

 

[Fire and groove]

Exactly, focussing on training only is like cramming and having experience means understanding it.

Chinese SF can do their job. People need to do more intricate research, they're definitely short for experience but their operational profile so far and their performance in exercises is commendable. There was a hostage rescue operation they conducted in Afghanistan being an example of just that. There's frankly little objective grounds to underestimate them to any extent.

 

[SGOperative]

Chinese SF can do their job. People need to do more intricate research, they're definitely short for experience but their operational profile so far and their performance in exercises is commendable. The hostage rescue operation they conducted in Afghanistan being an example of that. There's frankly little objective grounds to underestimate them to any extent.

Being objective and saying this they are directly copying Americans to modernize and change and it just not includes the gear but their training too which might not be that effective in a terrain which we wittiness on LOC

 

[Fire and groove]

Being objective and saying this they are directly copying Americans to modernize and change and it just not includes the gear but their training too which might not be that effective in a terrain which we wittiness on LOC

That depends. To what level are they adapting American tactics into their training? Because they also train with the Russians extensively in mountain warfare.

 

[SGOperative]

That depends. To what level are they adapting American tactics into their training? Because they also train with the Russians extensively in mountain warfare.

The level of copying they are doing of American's is just out of the world i mean in 5 yrs they took a 180 degree turn also interesting stuff would be to see how good their commanders are cause SSG men were good too in 1965 but wrong intel and bad leadership changed the course same in 1971

 

[Fire and groove]

It is the experience that matters gentlemen.

I think you're inferring a romanticised notion of experience. Training matters substantively more than experience. Why? Because personal experience is limited in scope and application until it's institutionalized and incorporated into training. Till then, that "experience" is only as useful as that operators continued service. Which brings me to us: Indian operators while experienced don't have said experience recorded, organized, analyzed and then researched for that experience to be truly applicable simply because we don't have research institutions set up beyond something like CENJOWS, let alone one that researches special operations or dare i say, CQB. So we're basically wasting experience while the PLA SOF are scrounging and researching whatever they can get their hands on.

 

[SGOperative]

I think you're inferring a romanticised notion of experience. Training matters substantively more than experience. Why? Because personal experience is limited in scope and application until it's institutionalized and incorporated into training. Till then, that "experience" is only as useful as that operators continued service. Which brings me to us: Indian operators while experienced don't have said experience recorded, organized, analyzed and then researched for that experience to be truly applicable simply because we don't have research institutions set up beyond something like CENJOWS, let alone one that researches special operations or dare i say, CQB. So we're basically wasting experience while the PLA SOF are scrounging and researching whatever they can get their hands on.

It is not as small as you are thinking and training matters too. CQB how many units will find useful in a war? Also for SOF units the experience comes in handy and the separate probation for each Para SF unit is also useful here. So everything is not supposed to be signed by the highest body.

 

[Fire and groove]

It is not as small as you are thinking and training matters too. CQB how many units will find useful in a war? Also for SOF units the experience comes in handy and the separate probation for each Para SF unit is also useful here. So everything is not supposed to be signed by the highest body.

Many. The world is going urbanize more and more and CQB along with UO will only become more relevant as the world develops. Even putting that aside, the very nature of special operations forces usually revolves around closing the distance and conducting CQB whether it be SR, sabotage, SADO etc.

 

[SGOperative]

Many. The world is going urbanize more and more and CQB along with UO will only become more relevant as the world develops. Even putting that aside, the very nature of special operations forces usually revolves around closing the distance and conducting CQB whether it be SR, sabotage, SADO etc.

Yeah but difference is there right? For ex the way the US SOF mostly raide a house or a compound or tunnels now compare that with out SFs job they seem similar but are different and for Chinese SOF they are not tested is the best word i could find, during 2020 Clashes they dint deploy them while We did to gain a Strategic Advantage. The leadership has a very big role to play in the use case for them.
Edit: US SOF fighting in Tunnels is what i could find the most comparable to our Guys Job.

 

[mupper]

PLA SOF is a real thing it can hurt you.

PLA SOF:-
View attachment 124818

That pic is close to 20 years ago at this stage.

 

[Honey]

PLA SOF is a real thing it can hurt you.

PLA SOF:-
View attachment 124818

 

[mupper]

Training matters too, at this rate PLA SOF will be exposed to better and more realistic training than Indian units and they also are going to start getting real world experience as the PLA will soon become quite expeditionary.

Remember China sees itself as a peer to the US, their units will this train accordingly. Indian units only measure themselves against the pakis

They are also popping up in unexpected places training and perhaps more. Off the top of my head I can list almost 2 dozen countries from Asia to Africa, to South America even in Europe.. they have trained in/trained others/ activly operated in the last decade.

 

[mupper]

Yeah but difference is there right? For ex the way the US SOF mostly raide a house or a compound or tunnels now compare that with out SFs job they seem similar but are different and for Chinese SOF they are not tested is the best word i could find, during 2020 Clashes they dint deploy them while We did to gain a Strategic Advantage. The leadership has a very big role to play in the use case for them.
Edit: US SOF fighting in Tunnels is what i could find the most comparable to our Guys Job.

That's not accurate.

 

[Fire and groove]

Yeah but difference is there right? For ex the way the US SOF mostly raide a house or a compound or tunnels now compare that with out SFs job they seem similar but are different and for Chinese SOF they are not tested is the best word i could find, during 2020 Clashes they dint deploy them while We did to gain a Strategic Advantage. The leadership has a very big role to play in the use case for them.
Edit: US SOF fighting in Tunnels is what i could find the most comparable to our Guys Job.

Not really. The way we raid a house in encounters is generally by blowing it apart with thermobarics unless METT-TC has civilian elements present. But when it comes to classified raids into insurgent OBJs, our actions on target are remarkably CQB oriented, which makes sense. It would be a waste to throw away any and all potential information with explosives, especially considering this is a counter insurgency campaign.
The problem with your idea of deployment is that Galwan didn't fall under the special operations scope to justify their use, which we actually didn't. We deployed the SFF, which i believe is no longer a special operations force and is at best special operations capable, with the anticipated existence of a proper special operations unit/task force element embedded within (SG?). However i don't believe the SFF men deployed were from this SOF element, atleast not in full capacity. Maybe acting as observers. Either way, it would make sense why China wouldn't deploy their SOF, because it's unnecessary and overplays their hand.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Chinese SF can do their job. People need to do more intricate research, they're definitely short for experience but their operational profile so far and their performance in exercises is commendable. There was a hostage rescue operation they conducted in Afghanistan being an example of just that. There's frankly little objective grounds to underestimate them to any extent.

Please provide more info on the hostage rescue in Afghanistan. I’m unable to find any info regarding this.

 

[ALBY]

Well yes but 1000 is relatively cheap by military standards but by small arms standards actually pretty expensive, especially when you compare to the cost of the SIG-716 which is just all around a better product. 1k for a stamped sheet metal AK is ludicrous but like I said it’s political

Correct me if i am wrong. This so called 1K usd per peice is calculated after accounting to the cost of setting up of factory infra etc etc. If thats true then its Ok as if u are making something from scratch it will cost some capital costs.
I had told this couple of times before too. The costing of weapons by OFB is fucking weird. OFB sells the shit quality Ghatak and Insas rifles to Police forces for similar amounts. Ie 70K something.
If OFB is going to make these weapons independently nothing much to be expected as you can't compare the Indian made Tars with its Bulgarian originals. In the words of one of my friends who is serving in Kerala Police SOG Tar feels like a Kudumbasree(women self group) product thanks to the crappy fit and finish, and its said that they had reverted Tars send to them in favor of Bulgarian ones.

 

[Tactical Doge]

In the words of one of my friends who is serving in Kerala Police SOG Tar feels like a Kudumbasree(women self group) product thanks to the crappy fit and finish

കുടുംബശ്രീ Lmaoooooooooooooo

 

[thefewthefearless]