Indian Special Forces

[FalconSlayers]

lol, who?

Ikhwan Ul Muslimeen

 

[not so dravidian]

Ikhwan Ul Muslimeen

who is tat

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Incidentally, I know more from family members and some friends who have served in IA than from my professional career.
One of my BAT COs participated in Yudh Abhyas in 2009-10? With participants from IA para. I have asked him now that I have the courage to do so since I am no longer in service (lol) and he said they were a professional army. He mentioned a recurrent theme which I’ve noticed in Jane’s defense forum etc: that Indian army lacks a strong professional NCO corps for small unit tactics. Much of this tasking is left to officers. My information maybe outtdated so take it with a grain of salt. Albeit for SF, I’m sure there is much more familiarity between officers and NCOs in maneuvers.
In the American military , much of the maneuvering and small unit tactics are left to the enlisted personnel with the commanding officer writing the operations order, and that’s all.

lastly, I cannot comment on weapons etc. I’ve never even shot an INSAS. Although, I guess the Sig 7.62 makes sense for the mountains, as long as troops don’t mind humping the heavier ammo.

You are right.Indian Army relies a lot on officers specially young officers for winning battles.

 

[abingdonboy]

Bro its Pakistan we are talking about and not Afghanistan or Iraq.They have air defence and Air assets to take care of helicopters easily.

I don't see how it would be wiser to use helicopters for lesser distance extraction in a place like LOC.

It would have to be a SF team on foot.

Yes if the distance was great i would rule out any extraction at all.

Along the LOC the chances of a hot extraction are basically nil for the reasons you have outlined and hence why the Garuds never launched into POK

A ground op was never on the cards as he was >15kms inside enemy controlled territory, by the time he had landed there was already a crowd to meet him and he was within custody within 15 mins.

 

[abingdonboy]

They did not publicize it but i have confirmation On good authority. You can check IAF causality list to check units of personnel KIA
EDIT: IMO, a really disappointing picture overall in terms of integration and communications

I have no reason to doubt you, there's not many reasons why you would be flying a friendly helo whilst your AD is active other than for such missions

it should be also noted that the first units on the ground for that incident was a Garud CSAR team

 

[tejas10]

Tavor is a great weapon for it's price. It's pocket friendly, it's reliable, it has in-built tech that mostly doesn't need added accessories and it's great for CQB in any terrain.In short it was a good package for that time, considering it was half the price of a M4A1. Also remember the diplomatic ties strengthen with these kinds of deals.

Let me be honest. Tavor is a great rifle for CQB ,be it BUAs or jungles. The amount of in-built

just copped one the other day , great to shoot at the range

 

[AVINASH4061]

I think we've had this conversation before but I'll say it again- that doesn't make any sense. You don't do SAR/CSAR on foot, the only way you can reasonably expect success is using helos, Garuds are the only CSAR trained unit India has and they are made ready for this mission 24/7, they are lacking the kind of specialist aviation assets that are really needed for the role though.

Abhi was in Paki custody before Army HQ had even alerted their local commanders, a ground operation from a PARA SF team was never on the cards, at best they'd have been at the crash site within a day?

I don't agree. CSAR has nothing to do with the mode of infil and exfil. Also I know how capb Garuds are. They had to search/ extract of whatever waa left of the plane and crash in our territory and it was impossible for them and don't ask me about their faces. Leave alone they going on foot in HIGH ALTI mountains and doing CSAR.

 

[Hellenic Zeus]

No point in constituting separate special forces in IB. The IB comes under MHA which already has special/semi-special forces like NSG, CRPF QATs etc. In addition, each of the CAPFs have commando wings under them. That is enough for operations within India.

What is required is to modernize them, equip them with advanced weapons and gadgets and most importantly the political will to utilize them.

I think not, this is where we are wrong every time. Other countries that I have mentioned earlier, separate law enforcement and intelligence agencies separately which will help in intelligence gathering and more importantly preventing further leaks like what rampant in our country. These sf unit under IB will bridge that gap. All the countries I mentioned earlier have better tactical units in their law enforcement agencies, still operate sf units under intelligence agencies (fbi, NSA, etc). But all these are not my words but actual people who have knowledge in this field and have prevented numerous terrorist attacks since post 9/11 and upheld their national security

 

[AVINASH4061]

Manning manpad could been done by normal troops too

Given the weight of the so called portable LTDs, they can't even carry it in hilly terrain, let alone the High Alti mountains. Experience courtesy a jt ex.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Weren’t Garuds used in the recent stand off with China as forward combat controllers and manning manpads units in forward high altitude posts?

IMO the role of the Garuds should be something like this seen in this video.
@abingdonboy @rkhanna @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @AVINASH4061 and other senior members as well as others I’ve not tagged what do you guys think?

@AVINASH4061 sir, prior to the creation of Garuds and considering the Garuds are a much newer force than their army and navy counterparts who would perform the role of forward combat controllers and direct IAF assets in aerial support? Like designating and communicating target coordinates for air strikes etc?

 

[tejas10]

Given the weight of the so called portable LTDs, they can't even carry it in hilly terrain, let alone the High Alti mountains. Experience courtesy a jt ex.

I noticed you are former para sf. Wanted to ask your experience on high altitude training in IA. It’s very well regarded worldwide. I did a course in Bridgeport, CA and there was a cadre who had the HAWS badge in his office. I never got a chance to ask him much about it.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I don't agree. CSAR has nothing to do with the mode of infil and exfil. Also I know how capb Garuds are. They had to search/ extract of whatever waa left of the plane and crash in our territory and it was impossible for them and don't ask me about their faces. Leave alone they going on foot in HIGH ALTI mountains and doing CSAR.

I agree with you.

I get your point on Garud aswell.Hence my comment.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Weren’t Garuds used in the recent stand off with China as forward combat controllers and manning manpads units in forward high altitude posts?

After the SFF did its job you could bring
in anyone.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Along the LOC the chances of a hot extraction are basically nil for the reasons you have outlined and hence why the Garuds never launched into POK

A ground op was never on the cards as he was >15kms inside enemy controlled territory, by the time he had landed there was already a crowd to meet him and he was within custody within 15 mins.

Yes but we were discussing a situation had he not been caught and contacted us from a hidden location.

RAW would activate its assets.

Wing Co Abhinandan would have been zeroed.

Para SF or SG or our assets in POK would have been activated.

Para operators cross LOC regularly and could have linked up with him and brought him back.

There is no way i would imagine Garuds getting down from a helo and bombasting Paki Infantry and Mujahideen battalion posts and extracted him.

Only Rambo does that shit.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

I don’t think this is the right thread to post this, but couldn’t think of which other thread to post it on.
Who provides security to the Chief the Navy? I’m referring to the gentleman in the safari suit in the tweet I’ve attached. Never seen any other service chief with SF protection other than COAS, so I wanted to know who protects the other 2 service chiefs?
Also @AVINASH4061sir, what do you feel about the COAS using Para SF members as bodyguards? Wouldn’t it be better if few members of the military police are trained for such kinds of roles atleast for peace areas?

 

[tejas10]

You are right.Indian Army relies a lot on officers specially young officers for winning battles.

Yep, there was apparently a huge issue where US NCO’s were communicating directly with general staff officers within the IA contingent and the officers there were displeased at not having a compatible liaison that befit their rank.
This is total hearsay but it reached consulate level during the exercise, I cannot confirm this. It does not bode well if politicking like this reaches a professional army’s ethos.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Yep, there was apparently a huge issue where US NCO’s were communicating directly with general staff officers within the IA contingent and the officers there were displeased at not having a compatible liaison that befit their rank.
This is total hearsay but it reached consulate level during the exercise, I cannot confirm this. It does not bode well if politicking like this reaches a professional army’s ethos.

Unfortunately our education system is such and also the rural population and exposure is such that we dont get a big pool of very educated or very very street smart kind of people for our non officer roles.

Our soldiers are very simple from very simole families.Most of them wont understand their foreign counterparts.

But they will also be willing to do anything on the command of their officer.

Its a balanced relationship.

But i think somehwere in the 90s things should have changed.

The Indian Police system is exactlythe same.

Even the US secret services had problems working with Indian counterparts during Obamas visit.

Recently a US Army Offical who visited both Indian and Paki DSSC said that he found both the Army to be outdated with their thinking.

I would completely agree with him.

However things are a little different in Para Battalions.

I think as we progress we would attract canidates who have a greater potential for them aswell as for the Army.

 

[tejas10]

Unfortunately our education system is such and also the rural population and exposure is such that we dont get a big pool of very educated or very very street smart kind of people for our non officer roles.

Our soldiers are very simple from very simole families.Most of them wont understand their foreign counterparts.

But they will also be willing to do anything on the command of their officer.

Its a balanced relationship.

But i think somehwere in the 90s things should have changed.

The Indian Police system is exactlythe same.

Even the US secret services had problems working with Indian counterparts during Obamas visit.

Recently a US Army Offical who visited both Indian and Paki DSSC said that he found both the Army to be outdated with their thinking.

I would completely agree with him.

However things are a little different in Para Battalions.

I think as we progress we would attract canidates who have a greater potential for them aswell as for the Army.

damn good point. There are many adages of Indian army enlisted digging a hole and filling it at the command of an officer that I have heard from my family. I hope that as the country advances, they can build and maintain a professional enlisted corps instead of relying on officers. Don’t want to bring caste and regimental system into this, but I suspect it maybe a mine field. For SF, I suspect the brotherhood runs above all that bullshit and they can operate as a team, no matter the circumstances.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

damn good point. There are many adages of Indian army enlisted digging a hole and filling it at the command of an officer that I have heard from my family. I hope that as the country advances, they can build and maintain a professional enlisted corps instead of relying on officers. Don’t want to bring caste and regimental system into this, but I suspect it maybe a mine field. For SF, I suspect the brotherhood runs above all that bullshit and they can operate as a team, no matter the circumstances.

The thing is NCO level entries are not there.

So would you wanna convert few officers into NCO and that would require restructuring the Army from the present system.

Or

You wait for NCO entries to be there which will take maybe 2 decades more and make the officer entry exam even tougher.

 

[tejas10]

The thing is NCO level entries are not there.

So would you wanna convert few officers into NCO and that would require restructuring the Army from the present system.

Or

You wait for NCO entries to be there which will take maybe 2 decades more and make the officer entry exam even tougher.

They don’t need to have NCO classification. Just promote from the current system. I made a sergeant in 4 years within the US army framework. The promotion rates in IA are shocking. Being a sepoy for plus 5 years etc. no incentive.