Indian Special Forces

[Aditya Ballal]

What kind of helos are required to perform CSAR duties in contested airspace. I don’t think we should consider the V22 Osprey because that’s a pipe dream.
What aircraft or helos are used by other countries for such roles?

 

[tejas10]

I think we've had this conversation before but I'll say it again- that doesn't make any sense. You don't do SAR/CSAR on foot, the only way you can reasonably expect success is using helos, Garuds are the only CSAR trained unit India has and they are made ready for this mission 24/7, they are lacking the kind of specialist aviation assets that are really needed for the role though.

Abhi was in Paki custody before Army HQ had even alerted their local commanders, a ground operation from a PARA SF team was never on the cards, at best they'd have been at the crash site within a day?

yes you are correct, his mayday call resulted in IAF CSAR sortie from Srinagar base

 

[tejas10]

This dude then needs a professional tag.

Lol I am not a professional by any means. I did the standard enlistment as a grunt, fortunately picked up NCO and am now using uncle sams money to go to university

EDIT: I am doing a thesis on indo-us military relationship for uni so this forum is enlightening!

 

[Aditya Ballal]

yes you are correct, his mayday call resulted in IAF CSAR sortie from Srinagar base

Considering that there were only 6 souls onboard including the pilots, are CSAR ops done with only 4 personnel onboard the helo for rescuing and shot down pilot?

 

[tejas10]

Considering that there were only 6 souls onboard including the pilots, are CSAR ops done with only 4 personnel onboard the helo for rescuing and shot down pilot?

It would include the pilots in the casualty list. I am unaware of Garud chalks and how they roll out. Para is sticks of 6, if my knowledge suffices

edit: open source article on the mishap:https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india...f-chief-admits-big-mistake-1606217-2019-10-04

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I think we've had this conversation before but I'll say it again- that doesn't make any sense. You don't do SAR/CSAR on foot, the only way you can reasonably expect success is using helos, Garuds are the only CSAR trained unit India has and they are made ready for this mission 24/7, they are lacking the kind of specialist aviation assets that are really needed for the role though.

Abhi was in Paki custody before Army HQ had even alerted their local commanders, a ground operation from a PARA SF team was never on the cards, at best they'd have been at the crash site within a day?

Bro its Pakistan we are talking about and not Afghanistan or Iraq.They have air defence and Air assets to take care of helicopters easily.

I don't see how it would be wiser to use helicopters for lesser distance extraction in a place like LOC.

It would have to be a SF team on foot.

Yes if the distance was great i would rule out any extraction at all.

 

[tejas10]

Bro its Pakistan we are talking about and not Afghanistan or Iraq.They have air defence and Air assets to take care of helicopters easily.

I don't see how it would be wiser to use helicopters for lesser distance extraction in a place like LOC.

It would have to be a SF team on foot.

Yes if the distance was great i would rule out any extraction at all.

Or diplomatic accords and usage of Geneva convention which was used by the Paks in treatment and eventual negotiating release of the pilot

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Or diplomatic accords and usage of Geneva convention which was used by the Paks in treatment and eventual negotiating release of the pilot

We have so many assets(intel) in POK that if Wing Co Abhinandan was not caught we could have easily got him on foot via the infiltration routes EVEN WITHOUT ANY SF.

 

[tejas10]

We have so many assets(intel) in POK that if Wing Co Abhinandan was not caught we could have easily got him on foot via the infiltration routes EVEN WITHOUT ANY SF.

Good to know! I was not aware. My uncle was a RR Co In the height of the 90s insurgency. He always complains about lack of HUMINT in POK whenever I talk to him. Just general stuff, no classified disclosure.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Good to know! I was not aware. My uncle was a RR Co In the height of the 90s insurgency. He always complains about lack of HUMINT in POK whenever I talk to him. Just general stuff, no classified disclosure.

Well that depends. maybe he was deployed on a non active area or area with less assets.

There was a RR unit in 90 that used to kill terrorist at the same place on the same day of the week...its count was in double digits every month.

Intel was pretty strong then specially on FTs.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

It would include the pilots in the casualty list. I am unaware of Garud chalks and how they roll out. Para is sticks of 6, if my knowledge suffices

edit: open source article on the mishap:https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india...f-chief-admits-big-mistake-1606217-2019-10-04

IMO it’s highly unlikely Garuds would fly with a team of 4 for such a high risk op.
Do we even know if those who passed away were Garuds or from a relevant branch? Even if they were on a CSAR mission wouldn’t it have been wiser to use a Dhruv which are equipped with the SAAB self protection suite?

 

[tejas10]

Well that depends. maybe he was deployed on a non active area or area with less assets.

There was a RR unit in 90 that used to kill terrorist at the same place on the same day of the week...its count was in double digits every month.

Intel was pretty strong then specially on FTs.

yes that’s my point. He was deployed to the upper valley part and they used to cultivate cross-border assets daily. He mentioned the paucity of such resources now. Of course, this is deeply compartmentalized and we cannot know much thru this forum.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

WC Abhinandan was unlucky. He landed in a civilian area. He was caught by the villagers immediately after the landing and local police came very quickly. Thereafter paki army and isi came and took him in their custody.

No CSAR operations would have succeded. Not even by Americans SFs.

 

[tejas10]

IMO it’s highly unlikely Garuds would fly with a team of 4 for such a high risk op.
Do we even know if those who passed away were Garuds or from a relevant branch? Even if they were on a CSAR mission wouldn’t it have been wiser to use a Dhruv which are equipped with the SAAB self protection suite?

To my knowledge, IAF thought he was in India with his last data transmission. Didn’t he land in POK and shouted pro India slogans before realizing he was across the border? He was fairly beaten before the Pak army came to the ejection site.

 

[India Super Power]

@tejas10 I don't know have you ever meet any Indian sf or paratrooper but if your seniors or colleagues who have been exercised with Indian sf then u must have heard about us so I am asking you what American sfs or generals think about Indian sf on basis of
1. Training and skills
2. Weapons and equipments

 

[aystle]

Does NSG participate Annual Warrior Competition ?

 

[aystle]

Well stf comes under IB and yes you right NSG and QAT can work parallel with IB

Arming IB will be disastrous... IB will be another KGB of India.

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

Does NSG participate Annual Warrior Competition ?

Did in 18 and 19

 

[tejas10]

@tejas10 I don't know have you ever meet any Indian sf or paratrooper but if your seniors or colleagues who have been exercised with Indian sf then u must have heard about us so I am asking you what American sfs or generals think about Indian sf on basis of
1. Training and skills
2. Weapons and equipments

Incidentally, I know more from family members and some friends who have served in IA than from my professional career.
One of my BAT COs participated in Yudh Abhyas in 2009-10? With participants from IA para. I have asked him now that I have the courage to do so since I am no longer in service (lol) and he said they were a professional army. He mentioned a recurrent theme which I’ve noticed in Jane’s defense forum etc: that Indian army lacks a strong professional NCO corps for small unit tactics. Much of this tasking is left to officers. My information maybe outtdated so take it with a grain of salt. Albeit for SF, I’m sure there is much more familiarity between officers and NCOs in maneuvers.
In the American military , much of the maneuvering and small unit tactics are left to the enlisted personnel with the commanding officer writing the operations order, and that’s all.

lastly, I cannot comment on weapons etc. I’ve never even shot an INSAS. Although, I guess the Sig 7.62 makes sense for the mountains, as long as troops don’t mind humping the heavier ammo.

 

[not so dravidian]

You mean Ikhwan Ul Muslimeen?

lol, who?