Indian Special Forces

[shuvo@y2k10]

Israelis are very smart when it comes to weapons developement both for internal and external customers.
The IWI has kept the Galil (AK based) as well as Tavor(bullpup) line functional by introducing new variants time to time.
In addition they have come up with 2 new designs: one is Arad (Ar-15 based) and Caramel (SCAR type).
Hence, all different types of weapons are available to them in-house.

We on the other hand copied the FAL and named it SLR. FN FAL was a short stroke piston design and held promising future. Instead of coming with new variants and keeping the SLR line alive, we in the 90s jumped to Insas, which is a long stroke piston based system. Insas took a long time to mature, and when it finally became mature from 1994-2015 by clearing all bottlenecks, we suddenly drop the 5.56 caliber and move to import. This line could be kept alive by coming out with newer variants.

Further, we became guinea pigs with import of large number of Tavors, when no other big country was introducing them with their SFs.

Now we are buying a direct gas impingement rifle Sig 716 and planning to import another long stroke design AK203, when we have equivalent AK designs in house like Ghatak, TAR, AK7 etc.

Seeing the recoil of Sig 716 in full auto, there is always a question in my mind, that after 10 years, will the army again switched back to 5.56 caliber like it did in the past with SLR, and order another import?

 

[Gessler]

Tar 21 is dropped project of IDF while X95(micro Tar) is still going strong.
Isreal top most SF shayetet-13 and Sayeret Matkal preferred AK Over M4 till 2010.
View attachment 71350
Preference over AK in SF kept the Galil project alive.
View attachment 71351
There paratrooper have always been a big fan of the M4 after AK which they carried till 2000 when M4 was issued as primary rifle for IDF, and will not give it up for the Micro- Tavor. like they have not let go of there AK till M4 was proved itself in combat.
X95 is most common rifle among IDF
View attachment 71358

We are NOT talking about service rifles of IDF regulars. Those are bought & issued by the thousands and obviously political & economic considerations come into play at that scale.

I'm talking exclusively about SOF units where preference & performance is all that matters.

There SF after 2010 have taken the M4 and x95 in sizeable numbers and still they have AK in there inventory.
View attachment 71359

This pic (and other such images, there are many) is not of real ops/training - it's a photoshoot conducted by AGILITE, an Israeli manufacturer of vests, helmets & kit. They have working relationship with IWI so obviously will only feature their weapons in the shoots. One such shoot:

Behind the Scenes- Agilite and IWI at the Battle Element Soft Shell Photoshoot

Exclusive Behind the Scenes look at the filming of the Agilite Battle Element Soft Shell photo shoot. The photo shoot was a collaboration between Agilite and Israel Weapons Industries (IWI) at the now abandoned former IWI weapons factory in Tel Aviv. Watch Special Operators wearing Battle...

agilitegear.com

So don't be taken in by promotional content. Real-world pics of Israeli SOF are pretty rare.

And yes, M4s (and recently ARADs) far outnumber any Tavor/X95 variant in their SOF use.

 

[Narendra s rawat]

X-95 in IDF SF service is extremely limited.

Shayetet 13 uses AKs and Galil MARs and some ACEs. Sayeret Matkal uses M4s, CQBRs and recently IWI Arad. Yamam use CQBRs and Arads. X95 use is extremely limited. Like Galil SARs in Para SF. There are a few lying around, but not really used all that much.

IWI Arad is not seen in Yamam war it is recently launched in sep 2019 till now it is in development phase while as you said M4, cqbr is go to weapon for sayeret matkal but X95 is nothing like Galil SAR it doesn't lack modularity, durability X95 just need some time like M4 and they can be next primary weapon for isreali SF. Galil,tar 21 are dropped project of IDF while X95 is the only rifle project that has proven itself over M4 in IDF.

Tavor with RAT word ZRX Suppressor

IDF are also considering Tavor 7 for marksman role to replace Sp25

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/idf-troops-to-soon-get-latest-tavor-7-bullpup-assault-rifle-591575

 

[Gessler]

An older post of mine going over the issues with our TAR-21s, and why an AR-15 could be preferred over them:

Indian Special Forces (archived)

@Violent peaceful @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @abingdonboy Question: What exactly are the things (equipment not clothing), that these guys got that ours lack ? Low profile belt. Multiband Radio. Camouflaged helmet Tactical Vest Communication set are almost never present. NVG...

defenceforumindia.com

 

[Narendra s rawat]

An older post of mine going over the issues with our TAR-21s, and why an AR-15 could be preferred over them:

Indian Special Forces (archived)

@Violent peaceful @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @abingdonboy Question: What exactly are the things (equipment not clothing), that these guys got that ours lack ? Low profile belt. Multiband Radio. Camouflaged helmet Tactical Vest Communication set are almost never present. NVG...

defenceforumindia.com

Nice observation
what do you think about recent procurement of scar h and l, mk 48 , m107 and if you are in position of changing above rifle which will you change and which you will keep on your procurement list?
All other memeber are also invited to give your list of rifle,LMG,sniper you have in your list for SF.

 

[Marliii]

IWI arad or carmel for ar.but even a fully kitted ar15 would work.quad nvg from tonbo and best comms and protective gear.

 

[Immanuel]

It is so good for CQB that Israel's own SF don't use it.

To expand....

Bullpups (not Tavors but in general, going back to AUG days) as a CQB-oriented concept were thought up during the times when regular platforms were all battle rifle-length like M16A2.

Since then advances in metallurgy & gas system design, together with new ammo types ensured that even short-barrel carbines could be properly employed in CQB without compromising on muzzle velocity, or being unable to successfully suppress as was the case with early AR-15 pattern CQBRs like XM4. So today with likes of HK416D and DD Mk.18 available, one need not look to bullpups as an answer for CQB. In fact the more evenly-spread weight & mass distribution makes regular rifles like AR-15s more suitable.

That's why pretty much all SOFs in the world worth their pennies - including those from countries that otherwise issue bullpups to regular infantry (like UK, Israel, Australia, France until recently etc.), routinely use only AR-15 based platforms for their assaulters.

So while IWI successfully made Indian SF the guinea pig for Tavors (we were among first to adopt it), Israel's own SFs to this day prefer AR-15s as their go-to rifle platform. Rarely are any Tavors seen, outnumbered by M4s perhaps 20 to 1 - either in military SOF and also Yamam. And you bet your a$$ it's not cuz of lack of funds or procurement lethargy.

Agilite IDF-The Units: Sayeret Egoz - YouTube

Israeli SF Use Tavors, Uzis, X-95s, variants of AR-15s extensively. Actually, depending on the missions, unit, the weapons change which should the norm for any proper SF.

 

[Phantom sierra]

 

[Killbot]

Nice observation
what do you think about recent procurement of scar h and l, mk 48 , m107 and if you are in position of changing above rifle which will you change and which you will keep on your procurement list?
All other memeber are also invited to give your list of rifle,LMG,sniper you have in your list for SF.

I'd junk everything. I don't know why they need an AMR.

As for rifle, I'd go for Car-816 or IWI Arad as they are reasonably priced piston driven ARs. HK 416 is slightly more expensive, but would also fit that description. Negev NG7 for LMG, because it has been ordered by the army. And looks like the army will order more of them. Another reason for ordering Car-816 is that they seem to be on track to win the Army's new CQB Carbine tender, if it materialises.

Coming to sniper rifles, they already have Sako TRG-42s. No need for anything else. A training establishment is what is required. The Sig 716i can be repurposed to be an urban marksman rifle with a good 1-8 LPVO, bipod and IR module. It is effective to 600m making sub MOA groups with match ammo out to 600m. Good enough for a DMR.

 

[Killbot]

Why the fuck are they posting pics on fucking instagram if they are """"InViSibLE anD deAdLy"""".. Fucking clowns..

 

[Phantom sierra]

Why the fuck are they posting pics on fucking instagram if they are """"InViSibLE anD deAdLy"""".. Fucking clowns..

SFOI is one page that u can trust... It has serving sf officers as consultants. Usually the page posts pics which are a few years old

 

[Gessler]

Nice observation
what do you think about recent procurement of scar h and l, mk 48 , m107 and if you are in position of changing above rifle which will you change and which you will keep on your procurement list?
All other memeber are also invited to give your list of rifle,LMG,sniper you have in your list for SF.

Far as I know, we were intent on both SCAR and HK416 but due to HK export ban on India we had to go with SCAR. I'm in favour of junking the 7.62x54mm rimmed round altogether so Mk.48 is a welcome replacement for the Pikka. M107 is great, just wish the regular infantry had also bought them instead of the bolt-action M95.

If money, availability etc were no bar, I'd always prefer an HK416 as the go-to rifle carbine in 5.56. It's the most proven platform - not for no reason that it became mainstay with all of NATO Tier-1 teams. SIG 716 is excellent for marksmanship/battle rifle platforms. Mk.46 & Mk.48 are probably best MGs around, based on proven Minimi design.

I'd also introduce a sniper platform in .300winmag like the M2010. It's a nice compromise between .308 and .338 though when maximum reach is the priority, .338 is the way to go.

Agilite IDF-The Units: Sayeret Egoz - YouTube
View attachment 71383

Israeli SF Use Tavors, Uzis, X-95s, variants of AR-15s extensively. Actually, depending on the missions, unit, the weapons change which should the norm for any proper SF.

View attachment 71384

View attachment 71385

What I said to @Narendra s rawat above applies:

"This pic (and other such images, there are many) is not of real ops/training - it's a photoshoot conducted by AGILITE, an Israeli manufacturer of vests, helmets & kit. They have working relationship with IWI so obviously will only feature their weapons in the shoots.

So don't be taken in by promotional content. "

 

[Immanuel]

Every rifle will have it's short comings, a bullet doesn't care who it's hitting. Obsession with Rifles is fine but it's the shooter that matters more. Whether he fires from a Uzi, Tavor, militia grade AK or fully kitted SCAR, doesn't matter on field really if the shooter knows how to use the weapon. What they need is a reliable rifle that works in the field in extreme conditions. For example MARCOS using AK-103 or even vanilla AK for 'over the beach ops' is a no brainer , there really isn't a reliable equivalent. Same for AK-203, we may not like the choice but there is something absolutely comforting to have an AK considering the extensively diverse and extreme conditions our folk operate in.

 

[Immanuel]

Far as I know, we were intent on both SCAR and HK416 but due to HK export ban on India we had to go with SCAR. I'm in favour of junking the 7.62x54mm rimmed round altogether so Mk.48 is a welcome replacement for the Pikka. M107 is great, just wish the regular infantry had also bought them instead of the bolt-action M95.

If money, availability etc were no bar, I'd always prefer an HK416 as the go-to rifle carbine in 5.56. It's the most proven platform - not for no reason that it became mainstay with all of NATO Tier-1 teams. SIG 716 is excellent for marksmanship/battle rifle platforms. Mk.46 & Mk.48 are probably best MGs around, based on proven Minimi design.

I'd also introduce a sniper platform in .300winmag like the M2010. It's a nice compromise between .308 and .338 though when maximum reach is the priority, .338 is the way to go.



What I said to @Narendra s rawat above applies:

"This pic (and other such images, there are many) is not of real ops/training - it's a photoshoot conducted by AGILITE, an Israeli manufacturer of vests, helmets & kit. They have working relationship with IWI so obviously will only feature their weapons in the shoots.

So don't be taken in by promotional content. "

Not every pic of the Israeli SF in the field with Tavors or X-95 is a promotional image. Don't be ridiculous. IWI manufactures a lot of capable weapons and their SF have the luxury to pic and choose the best weapons they feel for the mission based also on the unit. What we need to do is provide a similar luxury and SF, infantry can pick and choose from a wide set of weapons to go battle with. Hence I don't mind that we have SIG 716s, SCARS, P-90s, FN-2000, Tavors, Uzis, Micro UZIs, Kitted out AKs, M-4s, M-16s, MP-5s, MPXs, MP-9s, AK103s, soon AK-203s etc in inventory

 

[Gessler]

Not every pic of the Israeli SF in the field with Tavors or X-95 is a promotional image.

Didn't say it was so. But all of the ones posted above are, in fact, promotional images that disproportionately feature Tavor for commercial reasons (Agilite & IWI are in partnership).

IWI manufactures a lot of capable weapons and their SF have the luxury to pic and choose the best weapons they feel for the mission based also on the unit.

Precisely my point - that most of the time they prefer AR-15s over Tavors.

 

[Immanuel]

Didn't say it was so. But all of the ones posted above are, in fact, promotional images that disproportionately feature Tavor for commercial reasons (Agilite & IWI are in partnership).

Precisely my point - that most of the time they prefer AR-15s over Tavors.

You don't know that, neither does anyone else. Operators are trained in several weapons and they choose based on missions. What you see is pics from training and that doesn't prove jack shit.

 

[Gessler]

What you see is pics from training and that doesn't prove jack shit.

Yea....unless it shows Tavor, then you will post it as conclusive proof of Tavor being used

Israeli SOF are far more secretive and image streams are far more strictly controlled by Govt than in West. So yea whatever conclusions are to be drawn will be drawn based on whatever info is available on open source domain. This is a fucking forum, not an intelligence dossier prepared by some intel agency so go figure.

Funny you talk of actual training drills not being proof of anything - while yourself posting promotional content created as advertisement material for some company, trying to show them as evidence of Tavor usage (as if I said Tavor wasn't used at all - I only said M4s are more preferred & outnumber them).

Glass houses much?

 

[Immanuel]

Yea....unless it shows Tavor, then you will post it as conclusive proof of Tavor being used

Israeli SOF are far more secretive and image streams are far more strictly controlled by Govt than in West. So yea whatever conclusions are to be drawn will be drawn based on whatever info is available on open source domain. This is a fucking forum, not an intelligence dossier prepared by some intel agency so go figure.

Funny you talk of actual training drills not being proof of anything - while yourself posting promotional content created as advertisement material for some company, trying to show them as evidence of Tavor usage (as if I said Tavor wasn't used at all - I only said M4s are more preferred & outnumber them).

Glass houses much?

Tavor was made originally a replacement for the M-4, across IDF, Tavors and X-95 outnumber the M-4s. I also only said, Tavors are used extensively across IDF and they outnumber the M-4s. There is no reason to dump on the Tavor and Indian SF use it along side the M-4. M-4 was bought and has it's own advantges.

[Redacted]

 

[Gessler]

Tavor was made originally a replacement for the M-4, across IDF, Tavors and X-95 outnumber the M-4s. I also only said, Tavors are used extensively across IDF and they outnumber the M-4s.

Who cares about across the regular IDF. INSAS also outnumbers M4 if you consider all of Indian military, that means INSAS is better than M4?

I already said to another member:

"We are NOT talking about service rifles of IDF regulars. Those are bought & issued by the thousands and obviously political & economic considerations come into play at that scale.

I'm talking exclusively about SOF units where preference & performance is all that matters."

Cock sucking much?

Sigh. Just when we were thinking we'd keep this thread clean.

@LurkerBaba @ALBY

 

[another_armchair]

Somebody who has an Instagram account please request these posters to stop posting images of operatives. They are marked men even after they leave the services. Don't make the enemy's job easier. It is very easy to identify from the silhouette and blurring the face is hardly enough.