Indian nuclear submarines

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

This is an overstatement. You were doing good till this.

SSBN is indeed a waste and is not an overstatement. Give me one proper reason to have SSBN to strike nearby foes. SSBN is needed to strike countries which are half way around the world and hence ICBM can't target properly such far distance and curvatures of earth.

The first strike taking out everything and desperate second strike is just bullshit. Only fools speak like this

Oh, no, there is quite a lot things USA can do about it.
For example, they can stop every western country from supplying high-tech products to India, which are generally the core part of those Indian indigenous weapons. It will take India at least couple of years to replace them with local or Russian components at the cost of lower performance

India has indigenised lot of its items that it is capable of making its own arms. Many systems like SAM, BMD, planes, tanks, artillery have been indigenised to Indian needs. There are many other items which are under advanced stage of development and can be fast tracked with accident tolerance. So, India does not rely on USA or any western goods critically. They are just good to have

If you mean India initiates a nuclear war to wipe out Pakistan, USA is very capable of handling the rest of Indian nuclear force. But this time, the Russians will join them;

Expelling 200 million your own citizens (15% of total population) is a perfect suicide strategy.

You are speaking as if India is some child which can be taken out by USA? India has 4 times more population than USA and has decent enough technology to thwart any offensive attacks. Does USA have superman? India can handle US Navy with such a large peninsula covering large area.

Also, 15% of the population are not our own people but foreign invaders who should have left long time ago. The other 85% don't care for these 15% as there is hardly any goodwill. These 15% have allegiance to middle east and expelling them will be similar to expelling Hindus by Pakistan in 1947 or expelling Jews by Arabs in 1948. But this will cause mass calamity in middle east as they claim to be leaders of Islam and hence can't refuse to take their own people. But they also suffer from massive food deficiency and hence will be hard pressed to handle such large numbers.

If India must not expel muslims, then India must be given sufficient incentives like investments and avoid any irritation or threats by any country needing Arab oil. USA must know to behave well with India and ensure that Pakistan or external muslims do not cause nuisance anywhere in India like Kashmir or any other part. India can't be taken for granted.

Coming back to topic, Indian Arihant is a complete waste as SSBN. The 750km missile is a dead give away that it is intended to be SSN with some missile firing ability rather than SSBN. SSN is useful in using as a choke point for Arab oil, threatening ships in IOR- both civilian (oil tanker) and navy ships as well as acting as a deterrence. The 750km missile is good for firing against ports and harbours to cripple enemy navies.

Arihant exists to ensure Naval dominance of Indian navy in the IOR region and is not SSBN

 

[hit&run]

SSBN is indeed a waste and is not an overstatement. Give me one proper reason to have SSBN to strike nearby foes. SSBN is needed to strike countries which are half way around the world and hence ICBM can't target properly such far distance and curvatures of earth.

The first strike taking out everything and desperate second strike is just bullshit. Only fools speak like this

With Adjective like this, no debate will happen.

I wonder if you understand Nuclear warfighting and Nuclear Deterrence.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

With Adjective like this, no debate will happen.

I wonder if you understand Nuclear warfighting and Nuclear Deterrence.

I have extensive understanding of nuclear deterrence. I did not intend the adjective at you but in general those who spread fake news without giving proper details.

Please give me the proper plan in which SSBN is useful by answering the following questions:

• What is nuclear deterrence?
• How does nuclear deterrence work and what is so special about it that is not available in other forms of defence? Also consider that in war, there will be losses and mere losses are not enough to stop a war. In WW2, USSR lost 3 crore people out of total 17 crore population and still they did not surrender.
• Explain what is first strike and second strike and their significance
• How much destruction can a nuclear warhead of 200kT cause to a target? Specify in terms of method in which nuclear bomb will destroy, the area which will be destroyed in terms of radius for urban areas and rural areas, the different type of explosions like air-burst and surface explosion.
• What role can SSBN play other than striking long distance targets on other side of earth

After you give these details, I promise to speak in detail about the point you are raising.

 

[hit&run]

I have extensive understanding of nuclear deterrence. I did not intend the adjective at you but in general those who spread fake news without giving proper details.

Please give me the proper plan in which SSBN is useful by answering the following questions:

• What is nuclear deterrence?
• How does nuclear deterrence work and what is so special about it that is not available in other forms of defence? Also consider that in war, there will be losses and mere losses are not enough to stop a war. In WW2, USSR lost 3 crore people out of total 17 crore population and still they did not surrender.
• Explain what is first strike and second strike and their significance
• How much destruction can a nuclear warhead of 200kT cause to a target? Specify in terms of method in which nuclear bomb will destroy, the area which will be destroyed in terms of radius for urban areas and rural areas, the different type of explosions like air-burst and surface explosion.
• What role can SSBN play other than striking long distance targets on other side of earth

After you give these details, I promise to speak in detail about the point you are raising.

It means you do not know nuclear war fighting.

Understanding deterrence without understanding Warfighting is shallow stuff.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

It means you do not know nuclear war fighting.

Understanding deterrence without understanding Warfighting is shallow stuff.

Don't keep telling the same thing. If you understand, then explain in detail. Otherwise, it will be deemed that you don't understand anything but just reacting to protect your ego. I have clearly given my stance about nuclear warfare and the plans/counterplans for it. You are the one who is running away from answering question.

 

[hit&run]

Don't keep telling the same thing. If you understand, then explain in detail. Otherwise, it will be deemed that you don't understand anything but just reacting to protect your ego. I have clearly given my stance about nuclear warfare and the plans/counterplans for it. You are the one who is running away from answering question.

No ego at all.

SSBNs are the most essential part of both Nuclear deterrence and Nuclear warfighting. You gotta let it sync into your understanding otherwise you will exhaust yourself negating this truth. When I was talking about it I was only commenting on India's current situation.

I have been debating and reading on this subject for almost 10 odd years. I was looking for keywords in all your posts and questions but found none.

1. It does not take much time to reach this conclusion that your understanding is superficial but predictably focus on isolated Indo-Pak, Indo-China nuclear quagmire.

2. Also, I found your perception about the Nuclear threat flawed when I saw you are claiming an authority on technicalities, not diplomacy or Geopolitics. There is still a levy for those base their assumptions of threat on how USA or Russia perceive us today.

3. The third critical flaw in your thinking is that you have frozen India's nuclear weapon development programme to minimum credible deterrence when it is nothing but buying the time tactic as we lost the race in 1960 to be as close as we can to Warfighting arsenal.

Here we I just gave you a clue what to read.

BTW I am not bound to answer your question but if I will add my submissions when I will see there is a need for me to add.

3. Deterrence is not Warfighting. And this a nothing but a deception to buy more time.

1 & 2. Nuclear weapon state becomes the target of all Nuclear weapon states, notwithstanding your geopolitical credibility or friendships.

So what is more important Survival or the Numbers?

 

[Anikastha]

In case INS Arihant has to fire its 10-12 missiles in anger against Pakistan. Here is my list of targets.
1. GHQ
2. Chaklala
3. Islamabad
4. Karachi
5. Karachi
6. Sargodha
7. Bholari
8. Murid
9. National Development center
10.Kahuta

Fire what ever left on China.

Dont forget newbrand naval base in Balochistan. Than base is constructed right behind a huge hill to avoid another Operation Trident.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

SSBNs are the most essential part of both Nuclear deterrence and Nuclear warfighting. You gotta let it sync into your understanding otherwise you will exhaust yourself negating this truth. When I was talking about it I was only commenting on India's current situation.

You have called something which is blatantly false as truth and started giving irrelevant logics and points. How is SSBN useful is womthing you have never answered. If your whole point is that you are not bound to answer my question, then you are not supposed to come to forums. I am asking a very valid question, not irrelevant one. So, if you want to hold meaningful discussion, you must clearly answer questions.

It does not take much time to reach this conclusion that your understanding is superficial but predictably focus on isolated Indo-Pak, Indo-China nuclear quagmire.

Also, I found your perception about the Nuclear threat flawed when I saw you are claiming an authority on technicalities, not diplomacy or Geopolitics. There is still a levy for those base their assumptions of threat on how USA or Russia perceive us today

The answer to your above points is in the quote below by me. I have always considered USA as a major threat and have extensively spoken about petroleum, Islam, etc which shows that I am actually speaking as a holistic manner, not centred around China or Pakistan. In fact, I consider China as a potential ally rather than enemy:

Actually, India is very well capable of defeating USA Navy. USA can't simply transport the goods from half way around the world and fight against a big power like India. China is not a threat and even a potential ally of India if concession on Tibet issue particularly Dalai lama issue is made.

If India decides to go all out and ramp up its production of defence, there is hardly anything USA can do about it. Also, India holds the key for Arab petroleum. If India decides to unleash and wipe out Pakistan or simply expel 20 crore muslims, middle east and their oil supply will go down. USA is strong only when the cowardly and poor character people like Vajpayee showed weakness. Otherwise, the mere threat of expelling 20 crore muslims and causing starvation in middle east is enough to terrorise USA and make them flinch. That has been done now and as a result, India is now getting a lot of respect in world stage along with jitters to USA. USA was shouting recently that Arabs are threatening USA and trying to extort. The reason why USA has ramped up its oil production to 11MBPD is also due to this threat of Arabs.

So, India should not simply focus on USA alone but try to build up its capability to be fit to fight against anyone and everyone who is against India, even the USA as well as other neighbours

If India must not expel muslims, then India must be given sufficient incentives like investments and avoid any irritation or threats by any country needing Arab oil. USA must know to behave well with India and ensure that Pakistan or external muslims do not cause nuisance anywhere in India like Kashmir or any other part. India can't be taken for granted.

The third critical flaw in your thinking is that you have frozen India's nuclear weapon development programme to minimum credible deterrence when it is nothing but buying the time tactic as we lost the race in 1960 to be as close as we can to Warfighting arsenal.

I have been consistently speaking of making lakhs of nuclear bomb, millions of missiles, lakhs of aircrafts and wiping out every enemy. I completely reject minimum deterrence. If you can show even 1 post where I called for minimum deterrence, I will agree that I am wrong.

Deterrence is not Warfighting. And this a nothing but a deception to buy more time.

I am seeking complete wipe out mercilessly. There is no question of deterrence but of dominance. It is important to dominate and decisively seek permanent solutions, not just deter anyone. I am known as a serious hawk on this forum and you are saying that I am seeking deterrence?

 

[aarav]

SSBN is indeed a waste and is not an overstatement. Give me one proper reason to have SSBN to strike nearby foes. SSBN is needed to strike countries which are half way around the world and hence ICBM can't target properly such far distance and curvatures of earth.

The first strike taking out everything and desperate second strike is just bullshit. Only fools speak like this

Well,one reason is the hypothetical possibility that the enemy takes down our nuclear bombs and delivery systems on land by first strike and then only way to punish remains the planned 5 ssbn and they having around 50 slbms ,hence the deterrence from first strike

 

[hit&run]

You have called something which is blatantly false as truth and started giving irrelevant logics and points. How is SSBN useful is womthing you have never answered. If your whole point is that you are not bound to answer my question, then you are not supposed to come to forums. I am asking a very valid question, not irrelevant one. So, if you want to hold meaningful discussion, you must clearly answer questions.

Useless Rant. You know nothing about anything, just a fanboy blabbering and inventing things on the hoof.

The answer to your above points is in the quote below by me. I have always considered USA as a major threat and have extensively spoken about petroleum, Islam, etc which shows that I am actually speaking as a holistic manner, not centred around China or Pakistan. In fact, I consider China as a potential ally rather than enemy:

Another confused defensive, confated rant of no use.

Speaking for China, condemning USA blah blah. You are not getting what is been told to you clearly that Being a nuclear weapon state means that now India is the target of every nuclear weapon state including France regardless of trade, Oil, Ena Meena Dika.

Now add all the arsenal of these Nations and show me your analytical skills to counter this threat. And this flaw in your understanding was marked by me in the previous post. But you are reading less and arguing more.

If you think USA as a threat then you need more SSBNs. They have warfighting arsenal and any strike on anyone by India can trigger USA punitive arsenal on India which will be crippling if not decimating with precision nuclear strikes on anything that can lauch ballistic missiles. And they are sniffing every Indian swamp, gutter and building as we speak. Russians are doing the same if you do not know. Chinese are catching up fast.

I have been consistently speaking of making lakhs of nuclear bomb, millions of missiles, lakhs of aircrafts and wiping out every enemy. I completely reject minimum deterrence. If you can show even 1 post where I called for minimum deterrence, I will agree that I am wrong.

No! this not what you are saying. You are picking ideas from my assertions and bending conveniently to defend an unintelligent POV that now you are stuck with. Your whole argument implied that minimum credible deterrence is enough because USA is not a nuclear threat. If India will have Lakhs of Nuclear weapons then It will obviously threaten the USA because it will be now considered as a warfighting arsenal.

I am seeking complete wipe out mercilessly. There is no question of deterrence but of dominance. It is important to dominate and decisively seek permanent solutions, not just deter anyone. I am known as a serious hawk on this forum and you are saying that I am seeking deterrence?

You are contradicting yourself on many accounts and unfortunately, you can not see it.

In my post before I gave to few points to ponder but you have come back to me with your credentials being a hawks. Hawks like you will be hunted down on the very first minute out of the nest with the kind of understanding you have on the subject.

Dominance comes with the numbers first, survival is just a variable and SSBN adds certainty to this variable.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Oh, no, there is quite a lot things USA can do about it.
For example, they can stop every western country from supplying high-tech products to India, which are generally the core part of those Indian indigenous weapons. It will take India at least couple of years to replace them with local or Russian components at the cost of lower performance




If you mean India initiates a nuclear war to wipe out Pakistan, USA is very capable of handling the rest of Indian nuclear force. But this time, the Russians will join them;

Expelling 200 million your own citizens (15% of total population) is a perfect suicide strategy.

USA is only needed in INTERNATIONAL FORUMS for support and they are doing everything they can so that INDIA gets support of the world.
Regarding RUSSIA joining USA in killing INDIA.
One thing you must know
"You don't know even a thing about india-russia relationship".
Technology is the one thing we never got from USA AND UK, the only western country that unknowingly gave was canada(their CANDU type reactors)
And if you want to add FRANCE then regardless of sanctions they will do business with INDIA openly or clandestinely.
Heck for engines we went to FRENCH
for nuclear submarine we went to RUSSIANS.
We have our allies with us.
You better worry about yours.
By the way HAPPY DIWALI

 

[hit&run]

Well,one reason is the hypothetical possibility that the enemy takes down our nuclear bombs and delivery systems on land by first strike and then only way to punish remains the planned 5 ssbn and they having around 50 slbms ,hence the deterrence from first strike

Any nuclear strike on a Nuclear weapon state will be of Decapitation, Counterforce and Countervalue nature. Decapitations and Counterforce are abiding.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

If you think USA as a threat then you need more SSBNs. They have warfighting arsenal and any strike on anyone by India can trigger USA punitive arsenal on India which will be crippling if not decimating with precision nuclear strikes on anything that can lauch ballistic missiles. And they are sniffing every Indian swamp, gutter and building as we speak. Russians are doing the same if you do not know. Chinese are catching up fast.

Again spoken like a nutcase. USA is sniffing out things but they are not superman to be capable of taking out everything. Your very idea of precision strike is nonsense. The idea that USA sitting half the world away launching ballistic missiles is not practical. The number of BMs required is in 10000 or more for a big strike. They have to be fired from some other USA base nearby, not from mainland. USA does not have missiles that travel 15000-20000km with precision.

There is nothing called decapitating first strike. No matter how many BMs you launch, the underground silos and storage are going to survive. Nuclear bombs can't simply wipe out mountains and create meteor like craters. The measly 10BM per SSBN is complete waste

No! this not what you are saying. You are picking ideas from my assertions and bending conveniently to defend an unintelligent POV that now you are stuck with. Your whole argument implied that minimum credible deterrence is enough because USA is not a nuclear threat. If India will have Lakhs of Nuclear weapons then It will obviously threaten the USA because it will be now considered as a warfighting arsenal.

I can't repeat the same again and again. I quoted my previous comment to prove my point. I consider entire NATO as a threat to India. You are ignoring my explicit comments because you are running out of arguments

India has always been a threat to USA and USA is a threat to India. So, I am not making an assumption about USA being friendly. Having lakhs of nuke is the only solution to resolve the threat and be ready.

My question is regarding usage of SSBN with hardly 10 missiles. When I am speaking of requirements being 10000+, your argument about 10-20 shows that you are the one thinking of minimal deterrence

You are contradicting yourself on many accounts and unfortunately, you can not see it.

In my post before I gave to few points to ponder but you have come back to me with your credentials being a hawks. Hawks like you will be hunted down on the very first minute out of the nest with the kind of understanding you have on the subject.

Dominance comes with the numbers first, survival is just a variable and SSBN adds certainty to this variable.

You have no content to speak at all. Also, me being a hawk is just to introduce to you my previous comments. Without looking at what I am saying you are making assumptions and that is your fault.

Well,one reason is the hypothetical possibility that the enemy takes down our nuclear bombs and delivery systems on land by first strike and then only way to punish remains the planned 5 ssbn and they having around 50 slbms ,hence the deterrence from first strike

This will require magical ability. There is nothing that can take down everything. Underground and hardened silos can't be destroyed. Also, a large country like India will have far too many weapon to be taken out in 1 strike. Also, we are speaking of tens of thousands of missiles The measly 50-60 missiles serve no purpose and are a complete waste. The SSBNs simply have too less ammunition to be fired meaningfully.

 

[porky_kicker]

My take is ins Arihant has 12 k15 missiles with single warhead and is meant for porkistan and is operational from 2016 at least. That's why we did surgical strikes and announced it. Porkies knowing it fully repurcussion swallowed humiliation.

Now ins aridhaman with 8 k4 is operational and being announced to let chinese know our capabilities to fuck them so that they don't mess with us when we fuck porkistan. Maybe December January period

aridhaman has 12 not 8 silos...............

 

[Arihant Roy]

aridhaman has 12 not 8 silos...............

Does INS Aridhaman really exist or are you talking about INS Arighat?

 

[porky_kicker]

Oh, no, there is quite a lot things USA can do about it.
For example, they can stop every western country from supplying high-tech products to India, which are generally the core part of those Indian indigenous weapons. It will take India at least couple of years to replace them with local or Russian components at the cost of lower performance

If you mean India initiates a nuclear war to wipe out Pakistan, USA is very capable of handling the rest of Indian nuclear force. But this time, the Russians will join them;

A big lol

Before opening your big mouth , you should have consulted your Chinese history , biggest government sponsored genocide in modern times happened under Mao . So stop worrying for your jihadi brothers across border and importantly stop preaching , it's nuseating coming from a Chinese of all the people in the world

If Chinese can graduate to present position of power , what's stopping india ?

India has more right than a security state like China.

If India wipes out porkistan in the future nobody will even blink.

For that India must first grow economically .

By that time enough counter measures will be in place to ensure no power in the world can do jack shit.

As for Russia I find it funny you mentioned them , they might even lend a hand to obliterate the porks considering the role porkies played in breaking up USSR.

Being used as a toilet paper is not akin to friendship. Unless you are as delusional as the porkies who think Russians are their friends

If I were you I would be more concerned why a significant portion of Russian strategic assets are targetted towards china. I guess they know......... history has a funny tendency to repeat itself.

 

[porky_kicker]

Does INS Aridhaman really exist or are you talking about INS Arighat?

Aridhaman........................
...

 

[happylion]

Aridhaman very much exists. Its obviously smoke and mirrors. It was in the docks when an accident occured with the gates. Arighat is probably anpther sub that has been commissioned woth Arihant. The whole thing is to confuse the enemy.
We announced 1 when 2 were being built and the actual numbers will never be known. What is in INS Varsha will not be seen but we will give hints through vizag port images just as a warning. This is a game played by every country

 

[Darth Malgus]

Aridhaman very much exists. Its obviously smoke and mirrors. It was in the docks when an accident occured with the gates. Arighat is probably anpther sub that has been commissioned woth Arihant. The whole thing is to confuse the enemy.
We announced 1 when 2 were being built and the actual numbers will never be known. What is in INS Varsha will not be seen but we will give hints through vizag port images just as a warning. This is a game played by every country

There are also other conspiracy theories about Aridhaman being already operational considering when INS Aridhaman construction started.

 

[no smoking]

A big lol

Before opening your big mouth , you should have consulted your Chinese history , biggest government sponsored genocide in modern times happened under Mao . So stop worrying for your jihadi brothers across border and importantly stop preaching , it's nuseating coming from a Chinese of all the people in the world

......

If I were you I would be more concerned why a significant portion of Russian strategic assets are targetted towards china. I guess they know......... history has a funny tendency to repeat itself.

How can I speak to a fanboy who treats nuclear war as his video game and millions of potential victims as the NPC in his game.