Indian nuclear submarines

jat

New Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2009
Messages
244
Likes
203
In case INS Arihant has to fire its 10-12 missiles in anger against Pakistan. Here is my list of targets.
1. GHQ
2. Chaklala
3. Islamabad
4. Karachi
5. Karachi
6. Sargodha
7. Bholari
8. Murid
9. National Development center
10.Kahuta

Fire what ever left on China.
Airhant right now is armed with K-15 missiles. You really think India needs SSN against a third tier, broke, undeveloped nation such as pakistan? The SSNs are not even for China. If India wants to defend against China's SSNs we can do that with diesel subs just as Japan has done. The real focus of SSN is to one day defend against the biggest and baddest nation there is...Amrika. It is america that can threaten India with annihilation with out much consequence. The reason for Brahmos missiles is not China. Why would we use a 3 million dollar missile against China when they can have nothing like a SM-3 missile or Aegis? The PJ-10 or Yakhont was orginally designed to take out out american fleets and thats why India bought into it. The K-15 missile is a hypersonic cruise missile, probably has a seeker to follow target like a cruiser or carrier. The Agni 4's MARV whats that for? China and its fleet of half operational carriers? If the Indian military can make America blink of think twice than we are safe from China. America is THE nation along with UK that has created this military base called Pakistan, just because China helped latter doesn't mean they are much of a threat. China can not contain India even it keeps trying with the economy it has. America CAN and most likily will get in India's way if the leadership decides to do so. Right now American politicians don't want to hold down India like they did in the cold war, but their views could change.
 

Hari Sud

New Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
3,945
Likes
8,863
Country flag
Airhant right now is armed with K-15 missiles. You really think India needs SSN against a third tier, broke, undeveloped nation such as pakistan? The SSNs are not even for China. If India wants to defend against China's SSNs we can do that with diesel subs just as Japan has done. The real focus of SSN is to one day defend against the biggest and baddest nation there is...Amrika. It is america that can threaten India with annihilation with out much consequence. The reason for Brahmos missiles is not China. Why would we use a 3 million dollar missile against China when they can have nothing like a SM-3 missile or Aegis? The PJ-10 or Yakhont was orginally designed to take out out american fleets and thats why India bought into it. The K-15 missile is a hypersonic cruise missile, probably has a seeker to follow target like a cruiser or carrier. The Agni 4's MARV whats that for? China and its fleet of half operational carriers? If the Indian military can make America blink of think twice than we are safe from China. America is THE nation along with UK that has created this military base called Pakistan, just because China helped latter doesn't mean they are much of a threat. China can not contain India even it keeps trying with the economy it has. America CAN and most likily will get in India's way if the leadership decides to do so. Right now American politicians don't want to hold down India like they did in the cold war, but their views could change.

Dislike your view point. You have suddenly painted US as enemy. Nothing can be lie than that.
 

hit&run

United States of Hindu Empire
New Member
Joined
May 29, 2009
Messages
14,104
Likes
63,378
Airhant right now is armed with K-15 missiles. You really think India needs SSN against a third tier, broke, undeveloped nation such as pakistan? The SSNs are not even for China. If India wants to defend against China's SSNs we can do that with diesel subs just as Japan has done. The real focus of SSN is to one day defend against the biggest and baddest nation there is...Amrika. It is america that can threaten India with annihilation with out much consequence. The reason for Brahmos missiles is not China. Why would we use a 3 million dollar missile against China when they can have nothing like a SM-3 missile or Aegis? The PJ-10 or Yakhont was orginally designed to take out out american fleets and thats why India bought into it. The K-15 missile is a hypersonic cruise missile, probably has a seeker to follow target like a cruiser or carrier. The Agni 4's MARV whats that for? China and its fleet of half operational carriers? If the Indian military can make America blink of think twice than we are safe from China. America is THE nation along with UK that has created this military base called Pakistan, just because China helped latter doesn't mean they are much of a threat. China can not contain India even it keeps trying with the economy it has. America CAN and most likily will get in India's way if the leadership decides to do so. Right now American politicians don't want to hold down India like they did in the cold war, but their views could change.
USA can or probably is tailing everything that India put into the Sea.

INS Arihant is too short legged to even pose a challenge against China. So far it is only meant for Pakistan.
 

Prashant12

New Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
3,027
Likes
15,002
Country flag
INS Arihant returned yesterday from 20-day deterrent patrol

A deterrent patrol is one where an SSBN with a full complement of nuclear-tipped missiles sails towards its intended area of deployment within range of an adversary's targets.


Prime Minister Narendra Modi today announced that India's first indigenously built ballistic missile submarine (SSBN) INS Arihant had completed its first deterrent patrol.

A deterrent patrol is one where an SSBN with a full complement of nuclear-tipped missiles sails towards its intended area of deployment within range of an adversary's targets. In case of an attack by a nuclear-armed adversary, the SSBN can be ordered to launch its weapons after receiving a coded signal from India's nuclear command post.


This is why Prime Minister Modi's statement assumes significance. India now not only has the capability to send out a nuclear armed submarine armed with SLBMs, the third leg of the triad of land, air and sea-based capabilities, it has perfected the entire command chain - the ability of the Nuclear Command Authority headed by the PM to communicate with the submarine through an Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) communication system. India operates a sophisticated ELF facility at the INS Kattaboman facility in Tamil Nadu. Russia and the US are the only other countries with ELF capability.

"In an era such as this, a credible nuclear deterrence is the need of the hour. The success of INS Arihant gives a fitting response to those who indulge in nuclear blackmail."
- Prime Minister Modi
The operationalistion of the triad is the most significant announcement about India's nuclear weapons capability since the May 1998 nuclear weapons tests.

Deterrent patrols, as the term indicates, are exactly that. They are meant to deter a potential adversary from launching a first strike by holding out what is called the threat of assured destruction. Once a submarine sails out into the ocean and sails submerged, they are extremely difficult to detect and track which makes it the most survivable platform of the triad.

India Today has learned that the Arihant returned yesterday from a patrol lasting over 20 days. The patrol area of the Arihant of course remains a closely-guarded secret.

The 6000-tonne Arihant that was inducted into service in August 2016 is presently armed with 12 B-05 or K-15 SLBMs (submarine launched ballistic missiles) that have a range of only 750 kilometres. It can also carry four K-4 SLBMs which has a range of 3,500 kilometres but this missile yet to clear tests.


Ship Building Centre in Visakhapatnam, Andhra Pradesh
Sailing an SSBN out on deterrent patrol requires a very high level of confidence in the submarine's technical capabilities and crew skills. Today's milestone makes India only the sixth country of the world to conduct a nuclear-submarine-based deterrent patrol. All five permanent members of the UN Security Council deploy their SSBNs on deterrent patrols. China was the last entrant into this club and is thought to have deployed its Jin class SSBNs on a deterrent patrol as recently as 2015. Both Israel and North Korea operate conventional submarines capable of being fitted with nuclear-tipped missiles but it is unclear if they have ever conducted patrols.

The Prime Minister today received the 100-man crew of the INS Arihant at his 7 Lok Kalyan Marg residence. Pictures on the PM's twitter handle showed the submarine's commanding officer Captain Mukul Surange presenting a ship's cap and a model of the Arihant to the PM.

The Arihant, which commenced construction in 1998 was launched in 2009. The deterrent patrol illustrates its rapid return to active duty after she was laid up after a flooding accident in 2017.

A second SSBN, the Arighat was launched at the Ship Building Centre (SBC) in Visakhapatnam on November 19, 2017 by defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman. The Arighat is on harbour trials and is expected to join the navy in a few years. Two more submarines, the S-4 and the S-4* are also being assembled and are likely to be launched by 2020 and 2022. The last two submarines are over 1000 tonnes heavier than the Arihant and the Arighat and can carry eight K-4 missiles.

While aircraft, missile trains and ground-based launchers can be tracked, nuclear submarines are virtually undetectable. This is what makes them the most precious asset of the nuclear triad.

Submarines thus become an important component of India's 'no first use' policy for nuclear weapons because they act as guarantors of 'assured retaliation' or a second-strike, preventing any surprise first-strike by a nuclear-armed adversary.

"As a responsible nation, India has put in place a robust nuclear command and control structure, effective safety assurance architecture and strict political control, under its Nuclear Command Authority."
- A statement from the PMO

"It remains committed to the doctrine of Credible Minimum Deterrence and No First Use, as enshrined in the decision taken by the Cabinet Committee on Security in its meeting chaired by the then Pri
me Minister Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee on January 04, 2003," the statement added.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...om-20-day-deterrent-patrol-1383188-2018-11-05
 

Hari Sud

New Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
3,945
Likes
8,863
Country flag
USA can or probably is tailing everything that India put into the Sea.

INS Arihant is too short legged to even pose a challenge against China. So far it is only meant for Pakistan.
As long as it carries 700 km missiles, it is a Pakistani centric. The next one carries 3500 km missiles then it becomes China centric.
 

abingdonboy

New Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
8,084
Likes
33,803
Country flag
Dislike your view point. You have suddenly painted US as enemy. Nothing can be lie than that.
Long term the US WILL see India as a rival and act accordingly. It is already throwing its weight around and trying to subvert India’s interests. As India grow the conflict between the two sides will only grow.

The US is the only top dog on the global stage and they will protect their position fiercely.


India should also be very very wary of the G2 understanding that was emerging under Obama, it may have taken a step back under Trump but such a grouping would be harmful and stunting for India. It will be another table it will be kept away from.

INS Arihant returned yesterday from 20-day deterrent patrol

A deterrent patrol is one where an SSBN with a full complement of nuclear-tipped missiles sails towards its intended area of deployment within range of an adversary's targets.


Prime Minister Narendra Modi today announced that India's first indigenously built ballistic missile submarine (SSBN) INS Arihant had completed its first deterrent patrol.

A deterrent patrol is one where an SSBN with a full complement of nuclear-tipped missiles sails towards its intended area of deployment within range of an adversary's targets. In case of an attack by a nuclear-armed adversary, the SSBN can be ordered to launch its weapons after receiving a coded signal from India's nuclear command post.


This is why Prime Minister Modi's statement assumes significance. India now not only has the capability to send out a nuclear armed submarine armed with SLBMs, the third leg of the triad of land, air and sea-based capabilities, it has perfected the entire command chain - the ability of the Nuclear Command Authority headed by the PM to communicate with the submarine through an Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) communication system. India operates a sophisticated ELF facility at the INS Kattaboman facility in Tamil Nadu. Russia and the US are the only other countries with ELF capability.

"In an era such as this, a credible nuclear deterrence is the need of the hour. The success of INS Arihant gives a fitting response to those who indulge in nuclear blackmail."
- Prime Minister Modi
The operationalistion of the triad is the most significant announcement about India's nuclear weapons capability since the May 1998 nuclear weapons tests.

Deterrent patrols, as the term indicates, are exactly that. They are meant to deter a potential adversary from launching a first strike by holding out what is called the threat of assured destruction. Once a submarine sails out into the ocean and sails submerged, they are extremely difficult to detect and track which makes it the most survivable platform of the triad.

India Today has learned that the Arihant returned yesterday from a patrol lasting over 20 days. The patrol area of the Arihant of course remains a closely-guarded secret.

The 6000-tonne Arihant that was inducted into service in August 2016 is presently armed with 12 B-05 or K-15 SLBMs (submarine launched ballistic missiles) that have a range of only 750 kilometres. It can also carry four K-4 SLBMs which has a range of 3,500 kilometres but this missile yet to clear tests.


Ship Building Centre in Visakhapatnam, Andhra Pradesh
Sailing an SSBN out on deterrent patrol requires a very high level of confidence in the submarine's technical capabilities and crew skills. Today's milestone makes India only the sixth country of the world to conduct a nuclear-submarine-based deterrent patrol. All five permanent members of the UN Security Council deploy their SSBNs on deterrent patrols. China was the last entrant into this club and is thought to have deployed its Jin class SSBNs on a deterrent patrol as recently as 2015. Both Israel and North Korea operate conventional submarines capable of being fitted with nuclear-tipped missiles but it is unclear if they have ever conducted patrols.

The Prime Minister today received the 100-man crew of the INS Arihant at his 7 Lok Kalyan Marg residence. Pictures on the PM's twitter handle showed the submarine's commanding officer Captain Mukul Surange presenting a ship's cap and a model of the Arihant to the PM.

The Arihant, which commenced construction in 1998 was launched in 2009. The deterrent patrol illustrates its rapid return to active duty after she was laid up after a flooding accident in 2017.

A second SSBN, the Arighat was launched at the Ship Building Centre (SBC) in Visakhapatnam on November 19, 2017 by defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman. The Arighat is on harbour trials and is expected to join the navy in a few years. Two more submarines, the S-4 and the S-4* are also being assembled and are likely to be launched by 2020 and 2022. The last two submarines are over 1000 tonnes heavier than the Arihant and the Arighat and can carry eight K-4 missiles.

While aircraft, missile trains and ground-based launchers can be tracked, nuclear submarines are virtually undetectable. This is what makes them the most precious asset of the nuclear triad.

Submarines thus become an important component of India's 'no first use' policy for nuclear weapons because they act as guarantors of 'assured retaliation' or a second-strike, preventing any surprise first-strike by a nuclear-armed adversary.

"As a responsible nation, India has put in place a robust nuclear command and control structure, effective safety assurance architecture and strict political control, under its Nuclear Command Authority."
- A statement from the PMO

"It remains committed to the doctrine of Credible Minimum Deterrence and No First Use, as enshrined in the decision taken by the Cabinet Committee on Security in its meeting chaired by the then Pri
me Minister Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee on January 04, 2003," the statement added.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...om-20-day-deterrent-patrol-1383188-2018-11-05
Any clarity on how many boats are actually out there? A few months ago there were rumours of 3+ And it strikes me that there is NO WAY that the navy would announce that the arihant had completed its deterrence patrol and was back in port if there wasn’t another ship on station taking its place.

The entire point of credible deterrence is just that- credible. Today the navy announced to the world that Arihant was in port and its crew 100s of Km away in Delhi.
 

abingdonboy

New Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
8,084
Likes
33,803
Country flag
Guys, the discussion about C&C needs to happen now. Civilian controls via NCA remains on all Indian nuclear weapons including those inside SSBNs.

Question remains how is this exercised? The peices are there (ELF facility) but what are the mechanisms?

How does India’s executive exercise its command authority in a doomsday scenerio?

I believe I have noticed the addition of India’s equivalent to the US’s “nuclear football” being carried by members of the PM’s entourage in recent times but it didn’t appear to be in the hands of military aides so how does that element work?
 

abingdonboy

New Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
8,084
Likes
33,803
Country flag
Next one? Arihant itself can carry K-4, whenever it is cleared for induction
I believe long term Airhant will return to DRDO’s hands (if it ever left them?) to be used once again as a tech demonstrator and development vessel, I don’t think it is for routine deterrence patrols as the rest of the larger vessels are.

Code name or not, Arihant’s designation was the advanced TECHNOLOGY vehicle, it was always meant to be a one of a kind R&D project.
 

hit&run

United States of Hindu Empire
New Member
Joined
May 29, 2009
Messages
14,104
Likes
63,378
As long as it carries 700 km missiles, it is a Pakistani centric. The next one carries 3500 km missiles then it becomes China centric.
Anything less than 5000 won't even scratch China's littoral Islands let alone mainland Cities. The general perception that Submarine triad is the most formidable is flawed in many ways. These days the maritime challenges and competitions are like never before. Launching SLBM is not a job of stand-alone SSBN and it comprises plenty of deception outmanoeuvring and surface assistance. In a nutshell, it is formidable with a cost as compared to land/Road/Rail/Silo-based triad which is vulnerable but cheaper to operate also sure shot.

Am I belittling sea-based deterrence, not all? Sea-based nuclear attack capabilities are the most potent and desirable. As far as India is concern It is a great milestone to achieve and a technological marvel to accomplish. We need them in great number before they can actually be called (collectively) an effective robust deterrence. Sure the work is in progress and men are at work. The jingo wants more before celebrating.
 

abingdonboy

New Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
8,084
Likes
33,803
Country flag
Anything less than 5000 won't even scratch China's littoral Islands let alone mainland Cities. The general perception that Submarine triad is the most formidable is flawed in many ways. These days the maritime challenges and competitions are like never before. Launching SLBM is not a job of stand-alone SSBN and it comprises plenty of deception outmanoeuvring and surface assistance. In a nutshell, it is formidable with a cost as compared to land/Road/Rail/Silo-based triad which is vulnerable but cheaper to operate also sure shot.

Am I belittling sea-based deterrence, not all? Sea-based nuclear attack capabilities are the most potent and desirable. As far as India is concern It is a great milestone to achieve and a technological marvel to accomplish. We need them in great number before they can actually be called (collectively) an effective robust deterrence. Sure the work is in progress and men are at work. The jingo wants more before celebrating.
India’s sea-based nuclear deterrent can’t be considered ready until there are 5-6 SSBNs in service along with an equal number of SSNs to escort them.

One thing many overlook is that the Boomers rarely go out alone, they are protected by a wide range of assets from SSNs to aerial assets.
 

Enquirer

New Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
3,567
Likes
9,357
I believe long term Airhant will return to DRDO’s hands (if it ever left them?) to be used once again as a tech demonstrator and development vessel, I don’t think it is for routine deterrence patrols as the rest of the larger vessels are.

Code name or not, Arihant’s designation was the advanced TECHNOLOGY vehicle, it was always meant to be a one of a kind R&D project.
Long term....in this realm is 15-20 years :)
Nuke subs are not really like ballistic missiles (which cost around $5-$10 million a piece); Arihant probably cost 'several' billion to build. Unlikely that it's role is a mere 'demonstrator'. Just like an aircraft carrier - the very first piece will serve the forces...

There have been conflicting reports regarding the 'larger' version of the nuke sub. It mostly appears like the next two at least will be the same size as Arihant.
 

sayareakd

New Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
17,734
Likes
18,953
Country flag
India’s sea-based nuclear deterrent can’t be considered ready until there are 5-6 SSBNs in service along with an equal number of SSNs to escort them.

One thing many overlook is that the Boomers rarely go out alone, they are protected by a wide range of assets from SSNs to aerial assets.
If you want assured second strike, then 12 missiles per sub with MIRV. At least 5-6 on patrol, 5-6 on maintenance and 2-3 on repair. That will deter any chance of two front war on us.
 

Enquirer

New Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
3,567
Likes
9,357
Big: S3 & S4
Bigger: S5(star)

Then S5 will be standard for some time. S2 might be used for research purpose only after that. They will also go for SSN attack subs. Facilities are being made.

Lot of things going on.
I think that story has been floated by Sandeep Unnithan alone.
No other source has said that there will be TWO more variants of nuke subs.

Logical way to think is that it's very likely that Arihant size subs were already under production while Arihant was going through sea trials (necessary to get to a FULLY OPERATIONAL nuclear triad ASAP). Newer/Bigger version might have been in design simultaneously and production for those might be beginning soon. Just my take.

UPDATE: Even Sandeep Unnithan is saying that S3/Arighat is an Arihant size sub. But claims S4 to be bigger, & S4* to be even bigger!

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/...-6-submarine-launched-drdo-1102085-2017-12-10
 
Last edited:

Articles

Top