Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Pulkit]

Wat ever i understood when i read the info available abt the PIL
I can easily determine that they not only only questioning the procedure and even the goods being acquired.
PIL asks why India is procuring obsolete defence equipment | idrw.org you can go and check it out if you havenot ....
They have asked why are we importing / procuring outdate and obsolete /decommisioned as outdated foreign goods....goods can be ships ,aircraft carrier,submarines or anything else.

I believe its armed forces who takes the decision what to have and what not to and its not entirely MOD which takes the decision.

They want to allow the Service Chiefs to talk to the court about non-performance of MoD's procedures in the acquisition process.

They want the import and indigenous acquisition procedures overhauled to make it hassle-free so that the armed forces can procure weapons in time instead of using rust buckets far beyond their useful lives.

It is targeting the GoI, not the armed forces.

 

[p2prada]

FGFA is no more ..



Source : Indian Air Force not happy with Sukhoi T-50/PAK-FA/FGFA | Defence Aviation

Very highly likely to be fake news.

 

[Pulkit]

It is definately a sad news though it was being expected as IAF has already declared something similar to it on January 21, 2014
Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF | Business Standard
So we can see the bright side of it as now AMCA will surely be the centre for IAF .
Indian 'Home-Grown' AMCA, An Alternative To FGFA | Aviation International News

Or is it just a way to get a reason to acquire F35 I hope not.

IAF is never satisfied in anything India is part of.... they always find some issues out of no where...
As i read this article sometime back that Russia is fulfilling all obligations Russia fulfils FGFA obligations with India - Alexander Kadakin | Russia & India Report

didnt wanna say this but i will also effect our defense sector as well....
And can it be linked to US Russia issues... MOD might be trying to please US ?

FGFA is no more ..



Source : Indian Air Force not happy with Sukhoi T-50/PAK-FA/FGFA | Defence Aviation

 

[p2prada]

Wat ever i understood when i read the info available abt the PIL
I can easily determine that they not only only questioning the procedure and even the goods being acquired.
PIL asks why India is procuring obsolete defence equipment | idrw.org you can go and check it out if you havenot ....
They have asked why are we importing / procuring outdate and obsolete /decommisioned as outdated foreign goods....goods can be ships ,aircraft carrier,submarines or anything else.

I believe its armed forces who takes the decision what to have and what not to and its not entirely MOD which takes the decision.

It's just a PIL, they will ask anything. I don't know what you are hung about about?

Most of this is mainly directed towards the navy because the resignation of a chief is a big deal. They are the ones who are still using very old subs and procured second hand systems, (Trenton and Gorky). There was nothing wrong with these deals and they will get a proper reply to these. The real question they are asking is why the deals did not cover more expensive first hand items and why the armed forces are still using obsolete equipment, which again has an answer, but most of the blame here lies squarely on MoD.

Now, the only issue is the quality of the subs we are using. There is nothing wrong with the subs per se. The issue came with human mistakes while navigating through the channels, or so they say.

Oldest aircraft are being phased out anyway, so the PIL will get the answer to that as well. Type 77s were recently phased out.

You are thinking too much actually. The PIL came from a bunch of lawyers who are not targeting the armed forces on technical grounds, but challenging the GoI on administrative grounds.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I hope that wont happen, The problem for DRDO is lack of manpower as well as Infrastructure ..

AMCA and Tejas MK2 should be pushed together, AMCA prototype must be put into effect with present solutions and should be upgraded with time ..

Anyways, Lets see how things goes ..

And can it be linked to US Russia issues... MOD might be trying to please US ?

 

[Pulkit]

If we go by the news is there still chance to revive the deal if required.
I believe the investment was 6+ billion...

DRDO lacks everything.... and never on time.... really dont know why dont they welcome Private sector/Players not all but till some extent...
I know GOI will never want to complete things in time as it will affect there appetite....
Fingers crossed...
Now Tejas and AMCA will share the limelight...
So we see any increase in Tejas mk1 with this?

I hope that wont happen, The problem for DRDO is lack of manpower as well as Infrastructure ..

AMCA and Tejas MK2 should be pushed together, AMCA prototype must be put into effect with present solutions and should be upgraded with time ..

Anyways, Lets see how things goes ..

 

[Pulkit]

Its just a PIL???? JUST???
it means alot ...
I remember yo said we dont have any say in Defense of our country that might answer that q of yours... We do have a say in it....
yes they have mainly referred Navy but i covers defense as a whole...
And I am concerned about it you might not.....

It's just a PIL, they will ask anything. I don't know what you are hung about about?

Most of this is mainly directed towards the navy because the resignation of a chief is a big deal. They are the ones who are still using very old subs and procured second hand systems, (Trenton and Gorky). There was nothing wrong with these deals and they will get a proper reply to these. The real question they are asking is why the deals did not cover more expensive first hand items and why the armed forces are still using obsolete equipment, which again has an answer, but most of the blame here lies squarely on MoD.

Now, the only issue is the quality of the subs we are using. There is nothing wrong with the subs per se. The issue came with human mistakes while navigating through the channels, or so they say.

Oldest aircraft are being phased out anyway, so the PIL will get the answer to that as well. Type 77s were recently phased out.

You are thinking too much actually. The PIL came from a bunch of lawyers who are not targeting the armed forces on technical grounds, but challenging the GoI on administrative grounds.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

navy accepted indigenous products without criticizing them and now they have got perfect ships like shivalik, kolkata,arihant etc.
iaf and ia should learn from them

 

[p2prada]

Its just a PIL???? JUST???
it means alot ...
I remember yo said we dont have any say in Defense of our country that might answer that q of yours... We do have a say in it....
yes they have mainly referred Navy but i covers defense as a whole...
And I am concerned about it you might not.....

It's "just" a PIL. And yes, we don't have any say in what they want. They are the professionals after all.

The PIL does not want a plan of action formulated, they want to know what's the plan of action already taken.

The answers are all there, especially if GoI is willing to take the blame along with the bureaucracy.

 

[p2prada]

navy accepted indigenous products without criticizing them and now they have got perfect ships like shivalik, kolkata,arihant etc.
iaf and ia should learn from them

All of the navy's critical parts are imported. Even they acknowledge that it is a problem that they cannot solve in the short term, and that it will take decades to fix it, maybe longer.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

All of the navy's critical parts are imported. Even they acknowledge that it is a problem that they cannot solve in the short term, and that it will take decades to fix it, maybe longer.

every navy ship produced by india is 80-90% indigenous

 

[Pulkit]

In the biggest Democracy of the world one has the right to view express... And if I am not wrong we Indians as a whole can change what so ever we desire to with the govt or defense....
Why always bureaucracy is blamed they just follow politicians thats there job... If the minister sits on a file how is it the fault of bureaucracy.

It's "just" a PIL. And yes, we don't have any say in what they want. They are the professionals after all.

The PIL does not want a plan of action formulated, they want to know what's the plan of action already taken.
.

either way the MOD GOI and yes Indian Defense aswell is answerable to us.....
.

The answers are all there, especially if GoI is willing to take the blame along with the bureaucracy.

 

[Pulkit]

@p2prada NAVY is planning 45 ships+submarines to be built till 2027 and all will be made in INDIA .
Seeking foreign help is not a crime when on one side you are buying entirely foreign goods....
@abhi_the _gr8_maratha you have made a nice point

every navy ship produced by india is 80-90% indigenous

 

[ersakthivel]

If we go by the news is there still chance to revive the deal if required.
I believe the investment was 6+ billion...

DRDO lacks everything.... and never on time.... really dont know why dont they welcome Private sector/Players not all but till some extent...
I know GOI will never want to complete things in time as it will affect there appetite....
Fingers crossed...
Now Tejas and AMCA will share the limelight...
So we see any increase in Tejas mk1 with this?

Proper allocation and not changing specs mid way will go a long way in getting worthwhile stuff from DRDO.

As Parthasarathy Scientific advisor to PM pointed out that ADA asked 4000 crore for development of tejas in 1989 ,using a much quicker LSP route.

Due to inter departmental haggling this proposal was not accepted . Just 2000 Cr was sanctioned after 4 years later in 1993 for two Tds first and LSPs after that. Even this was possible after the mediation of guys like Abdul kalam. The UF govt was even ready to shut down the program, But Ratan tata had intervened to save it.

Just compare it with the eagerness to pay billions of dollars in bank guarantees to Augusta Westland , You know what are the motivations on strangulating tejas project.

provided a the required money allocation and man power needs DRDO can deliver much better. Look at the ABM program , ALH, various ship building projects of Indian navy and Arihant (3 under construction) Arjun is the best tank in IA stables.

Another inconvenient truth that is often brushed under the carpet is many foreign stuff India buys has huge problems , all of which are brushed under the cockpit, like T-90s overheating issues, faulty missiles supplied by russians that fail in trials, the engine issue with PAKFA is just the tip of ice berg.

This engine is the latest from the russians . If IAf raise such serious issues with them , then imagine the state of the much older tech engines in IAF russian fighter fleet.

Services too should give bulk orders for DRDO stuff which is made as per their spec to blood in private sector participation in DRDO effort. Piece meal 120 unit and 40 unit orders are recipe for disaster for home industry.

 

[ersakthivel]

FGFA is no more ..



Source :
Indian Air Force not happy with Sukhoi T-50/PAK-FA/FGFA | Defence Aviation

Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF | Business Standard

India Concerned About FGFA Work Share With Russia | AWIN content from Aviation Week

The Aviationist » Russia's most advanced fighter jet's troublesome childhood

I raised all those issues in PAKFA thread in DFI, its badly engineered air intake not shielding engines on all angles and its inferior stealth shaping not good enough for the future, its new gen engine not ready and the huge exorbitant price does not justify the tech in it as it is a Su-30 evolution and not a fully stealth oriented new fighter design.

 

[Pulkit]

I have been raising the same point since i joined this forum.
IA and IAF are not favouring Indian Goods and the only reason they give is HAL is not able to deliver quality goods in allocated time.
Its true when the orders are very few and none of teh firms can do that .....
recently on the contrary HAl has delivered a aircraft ... Flat bed to test Radars i think well within the time frame ...

They want to spend billions of money on foreign products but cannot put a portion of it in research...

Proper allocation and not changing specs mid way will go a long way in getting worthwhile stuff from DRDO.

As Parthasarathy Scientific advisor to PM pointed out that ADA asked 4000 crore for development of tejas in 1989 ,using a much quicker LSP route. Due to inter departmental haggling this proposal was not accepted . Just 2000 Cr was sanctioned after 4 years later in 1993 for two Tds first and LSPs after that. Even this was possible after the mediation of guys like Abdul kalam. The UF govt was even ready to shut down the program, But Ratan tata had intervened to save it.

Just compare it with the eagerness to pay billions of dollars in bank guarantees to Augusta Westland , You know what are the motivations on strangulating tejas project.

provided a the required money allocation and man power needs DRDO can deliver much better. Look at the ABM program , ALH, various ship building projects of Indian navy and Arihant (3 under construction) Arjun is the best tank in IA stables.


Services too should give bulk orders for DRDO stuff which is made as per their spec to blood in private sector participation in DRDO effort. Piece meal 120 unit and 40 unit orders are recipe for disaster for home industry.

 

[p2prada]

every navy ship produced by india is 80-90% indigenous

No.

Only the Kamorta class has such high level of indigenization. Both Arjun and LCA are more indigenous than most of the IN capital ships.

Most of the radar, engine, weapons systems and electronics are still imported for IN ships. Designing and building the hull is the easiest part. Developing the rest hasn't been done yet. We are still reliant on the Russians, French and now the Israelis. What's worse is we buy them all directly instead of making them at home like the army and air force do.

http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Defa...=HTML&PageLabel=11&EntityId=Ar01100&AppName=1

While INS Shivalik has the Russian Shtil surface-toair missile systems, Klub anti-ship cruise missiles, the 10-km range Israeli 'Barak-I' anti-missile point defence systems, Navy says the 143-metre long frigate is over 60% indigenous.

 

[p2prada]

In the biggest Democracy of the world one has the right to view express... And if I am not wrong we Indians as a whole can change what so ever we desire to with the govt or defense....
Why always bureaucracy is blamed they just follow politicians thats there job... If the minister sits on a file how is it the fault of bureaucracy.

either way the MOD GOI and yes Indian Defense aswell is answerable to us.....
.

Live in your delusion.

Bureaucracy sits on the file, that's what it means when we say the ministry is sitting on files. Basically, both are sitting on the file.

That's why the PIL aims for a hassle free induction.

 

[p2prada]

@p2prada NAVY is planning 45 ships+submarines to be built till 2027 and all will be made in INDIA .
Seeking foreign help is not a crime when on one side you are buying entirely foreign goods....

Look up where the engines, weapons and electronics are coming from. Even wiki has that info.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

They have brain and Never-die Sprit, Which lead to Tejas and Arjun induction may be its late but way better than never ..

If we see the trend of our Government, They always favor imports that is coz of large kick backs, Our Nation have some of the most hi-tech Pvt industries, but unfortunately we see DRDO, HAL & OFB in black and white, It is done purposefully so that there will be an open door for imports and with that huge $$$$ kick backs ..

It has been going on since 1948 and still on, It has became an tradition for political wing, Let me give you a link about government treatment to National Industry >>

DRDO chief wants 7% of defence budget for R&D

"We need a minimum of 7-8% of the defence budget to successfully deliver the systems that the armed forces need. The current gap of 2% of defence budget will have a serious impact, forcing us to prioritize between our development projects," says Saraswat.

Pointing out that China was spending some 20 per cent, and the US 16 per cent of their defence budgets on R&D, Saraswat said, "Developing world-class military technologies would require an R&D allocation of minimum 10% of the defence budget."

Broadsword: DRDO chief wants 7% of defence budget for R&D

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Still things are changing and hopefully we will get rid of relying on imports to fight our wars in long runs, A good intiative is ordering More Tejas at least 14 squadrons ..

DRDO lacks everything.... and never on time.... really dont know why dont they welcome Private sector/Players not all but till some extent...

I know GOI will never want to complete things in time as it will affect there appetite....
Fingers crossed...
Now Tejas and AMCA will share the limelight...

So we see any increase in Tejas mk1 with this?

==========================
==========================

IAF understand this that making 5th Generation with such a partner ( T-90 deal / Karsnoop mess & Malfunctioning Russian origin Missiles in all three wings / Russian back up with spare issues regarding all system specially MIG-21 ) with so much at stake is not worth, What India may get is a 2nd grade Pak-fa with Indian tag, If you notice structural difference between FGFA and PAK-FA is none at the moment nor so much of the avionics, That means Russian intend to do what said above ..

Its always beneficial to make at home as the future of India is laying at home not outside, IAF understand this hence they are now focused over National defense Industry, It plain simple to understand whats going on ..

I raised all those issues in PAKFA thread in DFI, its badly engineered air intake not shielding engines on all angles and its inferior stealth shaping not good enough for the future, its new gen engine not ready and the huge exorbitant price does not justify the tech in it as it is a Su-30 evolution and not a fully stealth oriented new fighter design.