Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

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p2prada
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we have mki to take care until
amca and fgfa comes and we
must be proud of lca cause we
have made a better aircraft
than chinese lca ie jf17 and
f16 @ p2prada
abhi_the _gr8_maratha ↑
Yeah, that's why we will have
two squadrons to face
Pakistan.
Like
 

Pulkit

Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs"
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thanks for the confirmation of my statement ... thnx
At present there is not a single Nation produce 100% Indigenous Warship, There is always 10% import that may be furniture to some Specialized Rubber or Some paint or it can be some kind of Light, Not because its being unobtainable or very complex design but coz such small things are relatively cheap to import rather set up whole industry ..

During War such items are being stock piled or simple copied and put in production ..
 

ersakthivel

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For a few guys continuously bluffing F-16 beats the yet to fly tejas mk-2, some home truths about the contorted development of F-16 and spate of accidents in its early days all attributable to ambitious spec creep with out even knowing for what F-16 was designed.

the following article posted by
@nitesh
gives an enlightening read , when rational debate was the norm ,

The guys who are bluffing that tejas mk-1 does not have this or that and tejas mk-2 will not haul 9 tons to 4500 Km

Enabling Technologies: Mig-21 & F-16 | Frontier India

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Technological trajectory of the F-16 called the Fighting Falcon reveals the problems that surfaced during its transition from the production floor to its induction into the air squadrons. Two manufacturers, Northrop and General Dynamics produced the prototypes that embodied the virtues of the combat-aircraft criteria of the 50s. The GD design got the approval"¦it weighed about 20,000 pounds and carried only a simple aerial cannon, Sidewinder missiles, and their fire-control systems.

Immediately after the series production clearance was accorded by the US Congress, the aircraft came under the purview of US Air Force's development and procurement bureaucracies. The full scale engineering production blueprint of USAF introduced various military specifications which added roughly two tons of new electronic equipment and other modifications. During prototype development some 25 air force personnel were involved"¦once production was cleared it had grown to over 200 and the contractor's team went from 150 to about 1,500. Gradually the aircraft mission got redefined"¦.instead of being a 100 per cent pure fighter, as originally envisaged, it got converted into a multi-mission aircraft to be used for attacking ground targets and for dropping nuclear bombs.

The structural and electronic packages justified by new missions raised the cost and degraded its performance as a fighter. Originally it was designed to withstand forces of 7.33g"¦..but the Configuration Control Committee increased it to 9g, which led to structural reinforcements and additional weight along with a gamut of avionics viz. Radar, ECM, etc all adding weight to the aircraft and cost to the Exchequer.

Installing a complex radar demanded more power and more cooling, which made the fuselage grow. End result"¦wings and tail had to be enlarged — the tail was not enlarged enough which reduced the aircraft stability in flight. It weighed 24,000 pounds instead of 20,000 pounds with a proportional reduction in acceleration, and was loaded heavily with hard-to-maintain electronic gadgets.

The first operational model was delivered to the Air Force in January 1979. It was the first fighter that cost 75 per cent more than the basic version when modified to deliver nuclear weapons. Baseline Lifetime expectancy was set at 8,000 hrs based on:
— 55.5 per cent air-to-air missions
— 20 per cent air-to-ground missions
— 24.5 per cent general flying.


In 1990, twelve years after induction, a news item appeared that reported more than 100 crashes of F-16: USAF—80; NATO—17; PAK—13. The aircraft was labeled the WIDOW MAKER. It was reported that hasty induction of the aircraft had led to use of certain wirings which did not conform to MIL-STD requirements (fly-by-wire going haywire?).

Later another report placed restrictions on F-16 from indulging in high 'g' maneuvers and low level missions. These restrictions prevailed during the Gulf War"¦.even after two decades of combat flying. It came to be referred to as a 'clear weather' aircraft which did not meet the assigned tasks during the Gulf War"¦its performance was officially criticized by the US General Accounting Office.

In May 1991, US Senate Armed Services Committee found the stealth fighter F-117 to be eight times more effective than F-16. Plans were on to terminate production of F-16 but the commercial implications of the multi-nation development venture involving the USA, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Israel and a host of customers gave the aircraft a fresh lease of combat life.


Jane's Defense Weekly (August 10, 1991) quoted Pentagon, stating that the aircraft had been assigned to 60 per cent air-to-ground missions (as against 20 per cent). It was presumed that sorties with vintage iron bombs fitted with Laser Guidance adapters offered undesirable drag loads. Carriage of non-conformal bombs on external pylons take a heavy toll of the airframes integrity and engine performance.

Around this period, INTERVIA, came up with the news that 3,240 (pre-block 50) F-16s, required structural modifications and repairs after cracks were detected due to metal fatigue. According to the manufacturer's spokesman, the operational aircraft was being 'flown more aggressively, more often, than originally specified'. The details of the proposed structural modifications were also listed in INTERVIA.

The presence of non-conformal (mostly vintage) bombs, loaded externally appeared to have, in the words of an aerospace expert ""¦"¦convert the fast, sleek, maneuverable aerodynamic aircraft into slow, sluggish, bomb trucks""¦.with attendant problems to airframes and engines.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do people want to dump such preposterous stupid development pain on tejas?

tejas mk1 and mk-2 are designed to do what the specs demand not what F-16 block does like carrying 9 tons or flying 4500 Km .

Important figures to watch out for ,

1. TWR,

2. Low wing loading,

3. Hight ITR cranked delta,

4. HMDS enabled R-73 high off bore sight missile for dog fighting,

5. With higher powered engine STR and ITR are set to go up even further.

6, high fuel fraction .


7. ASEA radar,

8. Higher level of sensor fusion,


nothing else.

Incidentally this article was posted by Nitesh Ji on 14-11-2010. But a few guys who are claiming to be here for 7 years and experts on all things under the Sun does not seem to know that the kind of extra large --- weapon load, range load, fuel load will actually worsen the tejas mk-2 and not improve it.

If all of the F-16 specs are added to tejas mk-2 according to some screw driver TOT believers here,Tejas too will meet the same fate referred to in the article---"Later another report placed restrictions on F-16 from indulging in high 'g' maneuvers and low level missions. These restrictions prevailed during the Gulf War"¦.even after two decades of combat flying. It came to be referred to as a 'clear weather' aircraft which did not meet the assigned tasks during the Gulf War"¦its performance was officially criticized by the US General Accounting Office.
"

So instead of juvenile monkey jumping on tejas mk-2 team with stupid claims like, "Your aircraft is inferior to F-16 block 60 as it does not lift 9 tons and flies 4500 Km , your fighter carries a weapon load that is half of F-16's pay load, your fighter does not have canards, your fighter does not have LREX, your fighter does not have proper air intake,Why the heck are you building such an inferior fighter?",

without knowing an iota of truth about the process of Research & Development , and the purpose for which IAF wants tejas ,

a few arm chair experts here can keep their wise counsel to themselves and rest peacefully in the knowledge that of the 250 requests for action made by IAF after it joined the tejas effort all but 12 were cleared by ADA and these remaining 12 are to be cleared in tejas mk-2.

So please don't hurry up to save IAF from tejas with half baked useless brochure reading expertise without knowing a wit about what feasibility study, design and development means in real technical world.

Surely ADA is not a saloon where you go and ask your hairdresser a what ever hair cut you fancy. It is more like a brain surgery team. Will you ever go to your surgeon and instruct him to do this and that during surgery?

i hope this will calm the tempers , and people will resist the temptation to "consider using words like dumbass and idiots and accuse others for the audacity of posting BS without grammer" on hapless guys who get in their way.

If people behave properly then there will be no need to beg the Mods here.It is an enjoyable forum. Don't turn into a cesspool of personal abuse.
 
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Tejas have biggest plus point over any 4.5 gen fighter ie it have lowest rcs among the 4.5 gen fighters
lesser rcs with a good BVR and aesa radar thats a deadly combo that's why tejas mk2 is prefarable
 
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another plus point of tejas is

pen Architecture Computer (OAC)
designed and developed by ADA,
combines the functions of earlier
mission computer, display processor,
video switching unit and mission
preparation and retrieval unit. It is
designed based on open system
interfaces standards, which provides
interoperability, scalability, and
portability. OAC drives three multi-
function displays, HUD and the
helmet-mounted display. This open
architecture design will allow the
designers to continuously adapt and
upgrade Tejas to meet the challenges
of modern warfare
 

ersakthivel

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

:okay: I seen your Posts in Indian Air Force Thread ...!!

Post of The Day :salute:

tejas mk1 better than upgrade mirage 2000 :eek:mg:


Please check before Claiming

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/8625-mirage-upgrade-completed-within-10-years.html
other than the fancy set of smileys there are no source for your classifications.

In contest after contest grippen ng beats rafale based on the value proposition, thereby proving your baseless classification wrong.

In all those tenders airfoces all over the world, chose grippen ng because it can do the role of rafale with sufficient numbers.

By the same analogy a combo 1 su-30 mki and two tejas mk-2 ca beat one rafale in any role. and will act as a force multiplier when it comes to air defence.

in air defence one rafale CAN NEVER MATCH THE COMBO OF one su-30 mki + 2 tejas mk-2
 
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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

:okay: I seen your Posts in Indian Air Force Thread ...!!

Post of The Day :salute:

tejas mk1 better than upgrade mirage 2000 :eek:mg:


Please check before Claiming

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/8625-mirage-upgrade-completed-within-10-years.html
wanna ask you some questions
does upgraded mirage has lesser rcs than tejas?
does avionics of mirage better than tejas? Tejas have su 30mki avionics which are simply one of best in world and open architecture which means drdo can change those avionics any time
does upgrade mirage have aesa? Tejas mk2 have aesa later it will be fixed on tejas mk1
and supporting tejas will increase indian industry plus lesser money will be spend so we will have quantity along with quality
 

ersakthivel

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

wanna ask you some questions
does upgraded mirage has lesser rcs than tejas?
does avionics of mirage better than tejas? Tejas have su 30mki avionics which are simply one of best in world and open architecture which means drdo can change those avionics any time
does upgrade mirage have aesa? Tejas mk2 have aesa later it will be fixed on tejas mk1
and supporting tejas will increase indian industry plus lesser money will be spend so we will have quantity along with quality
You can also ask another set of very critical questions.

What is the max BVR range and max radar detection range of upgraded Mirage?


What is the thrust to weight ratio of upgraded Mirage-2000, tejas mk-1, tejas mk-2?

What is the wing loading of upgraded Mirage-2000, tejas mk-1, tejas mk-2?

What is the radome dia of rafale, upgraded mirage-2000, tejas mk-1 and tejas mk-2?
 
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SajeevJino

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

other than the fancy set of smileys there are no source for your classifications.

In contest after contest grippen ng beats rafale based on the value proposition, thereby proving your baseless classification wrong.

Don't Know ..but IAF need a Twin Engine Jet

In all those tenders airfoces all over the world, chose grippen ng because it can do the role of rafale with sufficient numbers.
Over all the world Gripen won only in Brazil ..as of Low Procurement Cost and despite Clash with EU nations

By the same analogy a combo 1 su-30 mki and two tejas mk-2 ca beat one rafale in any role. and will act as a force multiplier when it comes to air defence.
So We need Three Fighters to Kill a Single Fighter ..even Tejas MK 2 still in Paper

These Three fighters Air Dominance and Interceptors needs to kill a Single MRCA fighter ..:hmm:


I too agree this Point

in air defence one rafale CAN NEVER MATCH THE COMBO OF one su-30 mki + 2 tejas mk-2
Yes for Interception and Air Dominance

but you Know that already Tejas MK 2 will come after 2020
 

SajeevJino

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

wanna ask you some questions
does upgraded mirage has lesser rcs than tejas?
currently no one in the World will openly say what's their Fighters RCS .So the Tejas too Mirage too

does avionics of mirage better than tejas?
Better Avionics and Better EW Suite

Tejas have su 30mki avionics which are simply one of best in world and open architecture which means drdo can change those avionics any time
wasn't the Avionics comes from Israel ..But don't know how credible this one is @p2prada


does upgrade mirage have aesa? Tejas mk2 have aesa later it will be fixed on tejas mk1
Tejas MK 1 later be with AESA ;ohplease:

..Also MK 2 Comes in 2020 at the time Rafale Roar the Skies ..Mirage will be in CAS role in friendly territory


and supporting tejas will increase indian industry plus lesser money will be spend so we will have quantity along with quality
I will always support Indian firms If comes to Defence I Should go for Best Only
 
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ersakthivel

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Don't Know ..but IAF need a Twin Engine Jet

For that purpose IAF can get as many Super Su-30 MKIs all of whose tech was already transferred to india at a much cheaper cost and fleet commonality. p2p claims the russians even transferred 100 percent tech for SCB blades of su-30 MKI engines. Then why we need rafale?
Over all the world Gripen won only in Brazil ..as of Low Procurement Cost and despite Clash with EU nations
In swiss contest too grippen is the one who won, and rafale is yet to win a single contest

So We need Three Fighters to Kill a Single Fighter ..even Tejas MK 2 still in Paper



These Three fighters Air Dominance and Interceptors needs to kill a Single MRCA fighter ..:hmm:

What I meant was for the same cost we have a much potent combination which can guard wider swathe of home sky and dominate the battlefield against a single fighter of the same cost.

All the three fighters costing around the same 126 million will return to base with all the three pilots safe and the one single defeated fighter worth the same amount wont return to base and whose pilot will end up either captured or killed. Which one would you prefer? .:hmm:

In fact such a potent combo of one su-30 MKI and two tejas mk-2 will ensures indian skies are impregnable till the arrival of fifth gen fighters and act as peace maker in south asian skies with their wider swathe of radar coverage sensor fused with AWACS planes on the sky providing much complete picture of the sky than one rafale with the same radar capacity of tejas mk-2.

I too agree this Point



Yes for Interception and Air Dominance

but you Know that already Tejas MK 2 will come after 2020
RAFALE as per IAf requests with added HMDS and russian weapons integrated along with fuly qualified ASEA wont be home any time soon,
 
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SajeevJino

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

You can also ask another set of very critical questions.

What is the max BVR range and max radar detection range of upgraded Mirage?
What the need of BVR range in a MRCA fighter It's comes with MICA range nearly 80 KM ..the Mirage 2000 comes With Thales RDY-2 multimode radar

Maximum range is 60 nmi (110 km) in air-to-air mode and 20 nmi (37 km) in look-down mode.[2] The RDY can detect 24 targets, track eight of them and engage four targets at a time
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_Doppler_Multitarget
https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/content/rdy-2-airborne-fire-control-radar

What is the thrust to weight ratio of upgraded Mirage-2000, tejas mk-1, tejas mk-2?
Don't know

What is the wing loading of upgraded Mirage-2000, tejas mk-1, tejas mk-2?
It's better Mirage Carry more No of Ordinance and stay Longer in the Air ..Their Payload is Better than MK1 , 2

What is the radome dia of rafale, upgraded mirage-2000, tejas mk-1 and tejas mk-2?
Don't Know ..But for what ...?
 

SajeevJino

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

RAFALE as per IAf requests with added HMDS and russian weapons integrated along with fuly qualified ASEA wont be home any time soon,
agreed ..More than that we all see the Rafale F3 with all the Above Standard in 2017 at Indian skies..

ETA 3 Years
 

ersakthivel

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

agreed ..More than that we all see the Rafale F3 with all the Above Standard in 2017 at Indian skies..

ETA 3 Years
This thread is about tejas and what it can do to IAf capability in comparison with other fighters. it is not about predicting when rafale -F3 with all the stuff promised will fly in the indian sky.

How could you arrive at a three years time frame for integrating HMDS and R-73 with rafale?
 

ersakthivel

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

What the need of BVR range in a MRCA fighter It's comes with MICA range nearly 80 KM ..the Mirage 2000 comes With Thales RDY-2 multimode radar
both tejas mk-1 and mk-2 will have the capability to integrate both versions of Astra mk-1(80 Km)[ and mk-2(120 Km)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_Doppler_Multitarget
https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/content/rdy-2-airborne-fire-control-radar



Don't know

Google. it find out and post, It may interest you. You may learn something more.
It's better Mirage Carry more No of Ordinance and stay Longer in the Air ..Their Payload is Better than MK1 , 2


What is the use of carrying more ordinance,

when it has lower TWR, (f we take the globally accepted half fuel+two WVR missiles+empty weight as standarid tejas mk-1 has 0.97 as TWr while mirage-2000 has 0.9 as TWR, please check and confirm)

higher clean config RCS(three times as much as even tejas mk-1),

higher wing loading and lower BVR range for self defence?
Don't Know ..But for what ...?

Google. it find out and post, It may interest you. You may learn something more.
Google the two point you answered as don't know, find out the answer and post, It may interest you. You may learn something more.


With out knowing answer for those two critical questions there is no way you can claim upgraded mirage-2000 is equal to tejas mk-1.
 
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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

currently no one in the World will openly say what's their Fighters RCS .So the Tejas too Mirage too



Better Avionics and Better EW Suite



wasn't the Avionics comes from Israel ..But don't know how credible this one is @p2prada




Tejas MK 1 later be with AESA ;ohplease:

..Also MK 2 Comes in 2020 at the time Rafale Roar the Skies ..Mirage will be in CAS role in friendly territory




I will always support Indian firms If comes to Defence I Should go for Best Only
till 2020 we can have 100 tejas and 100 su30mki and later 2020 100 mk2, and looking at your current knowledge let of tell you one incident of su30mki, iaf used it as interceptor ya su30mki was used as interceptor, an ufo was detected along pakistan borders and su30mki was sent to destroy it . Su30mki and tejas both are multirole fighters
 
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SajeevJino

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

This thread is about tejas and what it can do to IAf capability in comparison with other fighters. it is not about predicting when rafale -F3 with all the stuff promised will fly in the indian sky.

How could you arrive at a three years time frame for integrating HMDS and R-73 with rafale?



A sensational piece of news came from Boris Obnosov, General Director of Russia's Tactical Missile Weapons Corporation (TRV), who told reporters that the French Rafale jets that won an Indian Air Force tender may be equipped with Russian missiles. The TRV is ready to adapt Russian missiles for Rafales. The company showcased a wide range of new weapons. Some have already completed ultimate tests, while others are currently being tested.

"These include long, medium and short-range air-to-air missiles, anti-ship missiles, guided aviation bombs and a large spectrum of submarine weapons. By their performance characteristics they are as good as if not better than best Western analogues," he said.
Read more: MAKS-2013 parades Russia's Air Force might: dozens of contracts signed - News - Russia - The Voice of Russia: News, Breaking news, Politics, Economics, Business, Russia, International current events, Expert opinion, podcasts, Video
MAKS-2013 parades Russia's Air Force might: dozens of contracts signed - News - Russia - The Voice of Russia: News, Breaking news, Politics, Economics, Business, Russia, International current events, Expert opinion, podcasts, Video

TopSight HMDS comes with Rafale


also It's clear we can see the Rafale in IAF colors by 2017

hmm before we are going to see Rafale in this year for a Exercise mission in India
 

ersakthivel

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

MAKS-2013 parades Russia's Air Force might: dozens of contracts signed - News - Russia - The Voice of Russia: News, Breaking news, Politics, Economics, Business, Russia, International current events, Expert opinion, podcasts, Video

TopSight HMDS comes with Rafale


also It's clear we can see the Rafale in IAF colors by 2017

hmm before we are going to see Rafale in this year for a Exercise mission in India
Do you know how much we are going to pay extra for this and what is the time frame needed for it?

For rafale to fly in indian colors the new govt should sign the deal. Untill that nothing is conclusive. The reported demand by french for a guarantee on the deal to A.K. Antony(who according to press reports rejected it as it will be huge political blunder!!) shows that all is not finished with the MRCA tender.
 

SajeevJino

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Do you know how much we are going to pay extra for this and what is the time frame needed for it?
Still no one have Credible answer of Total cost of MRCA Deal

For rafale to fly in indian colors the new govt should sign the deal. Untill that nothing is conclusive. The reported demand by french for a guarantee on the deal to A.K. Antony(who according to press reports rejected it as it will be huge political blunder!!) shows that all is not finished with the MRCA tender.

Negotiations still with Indian subsystems assembled in HAL
 
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