Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

No.

Only the Kamorta class has such high level of indigenization. Both Arjun and LCA are more indigenous than most of the IN capital ships.

Most of the radar, engine, weapons systems and electronics are still imported for IN ships. Designing and building the hull is the easiest part. Developing the rest hasn't been done yet. We are still reliant on the Russians, French and now the Israelis. What's worse is we buy them all directly instead of making them at home like the army and air force do.

http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Defa...=HTML&PageLabel=11&EntityId=Ar01100&AppName=1

I an talking about hardware and not including missiles
Navy orders 30 ships from Indian dockyards - Thaindian News

 

[Pulkit]

My understanding of english can be different from yours ... its ok...
The article pointed out at the inducted of obsolete weaponary.....
They quoted example from navy but doesnt mean IAF or IA are not covered.
Okay both are sitting on it what is the defense doing .... they do playa role in it....
PIL is just not about the process but the selection aswell...
if i have selected an old obsolete system what will a process do to avoid it ... it can just delay the process....

I am njoying living in this delusion .... but i dont think U r enjoying facing that it is part of a large reality scenario....

Live in your delusion.

Bureaucracy sits on the file, that's what it means when we say the ministry is sitting on files. Basically, both are sitting on the file.

That's why the PIL aims for a hassle free induction.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@p2prada
Third Anti Submarine warfare corvette for Indian Navy launched in Kolkata , AniNews.in

Navy orders 30 ships from Indian dockyards - Thaindian News

here is two reference for my 80-90 % indigenous claim

 

[Pulkit]

I never said 100% home made .... Alot of products are bought from Foreign countries ...
Engines and all ... and few with TOT as well finally they will be made in India aswell I mean assembled here... Thats good enough

But it does give a scope and your production rate increases.

NO country suggests building of each and every part in the home land as it is sometime not cost effective... then there is the issue of time and requirement ... so getting stuff from outside is okay....


lets say its 50-50 ratio .... but its still better than 100% of foreign and at top of it as equal as any foreign machinery......

I think Chinese were very interested in our vessel .... thats one way to say world does get impressed by our not 100% products .....

At the time of Tejas there were sanstions imposed on us that time also we were looking for foreign support to build tejas .
It added to the huge delay ....
If tommorrow another country imposes sanctions or there is a war we will be self sustaining instead of waiting for the foreign parts to repair or replace......

Wikipedia has alot of revelant information and its not always incorrect ... most of us refer to it first then using it do the further evaluation ....
by googling those facts.....

Look up where the engines, weapons and electronics are coming from. Even wiki has that info.

 

[Pulkit]

Hye some time back i heared we are building a navy ship for some other nation....Dont remb exactly
but if we are then it has to be indigenous otherwise its not easy to do that... If not 100% then also majority has to be indigenous to avoid issues in future....

@p2prada
Third Anti Submarine warfare corvette for Indian Navy launched in Kolkata , AniNews.in

Navy orders 30 ships from Indian dockyards - Thaindian News

here is two reference for my 80-90 % indigenous claim

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

No.

Only the Kamorta class has such high level of indigenization. Both Arjun and LCA are more indigenous than most of the IN capital ships.

Most of the radar, engine, weapons systems and electronics are still imported for IN ships. Designing and building the hull is the easiest part. Developing the rest hasn't been done yet. We are still reliant on the Russians, French and now the Israelis. What's worse is we buy them all directly instead of making them at home like the army and air force do.

http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Defa...=HTML&PageLabel=11&EntityId=Ar01100&AppName=1

radars are developed by drdo, electronics is also indigenous, problem of missile will be solved by barack 8, brahmos,astra, indigenous torpedo etc . So engine is problem but that also will be solved by kaveri

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Hye some time back i heared we are building a navy ship for some other nation....Dont remb exactly
but if we are then it has to be indigenous otherwise its not easy to do that... If not 100% then also majority has to be indigenous to avoid issues in future....

if it came to ship building, india imports engine from ukraine or france, gun from italy etc and this nations are close to india so no need for them to opposes indian export, only america does this with other nations

 

[p2prada]

I an talking about hardware and not including missiles
Navy orders 30 ships from Indian dockyards - Thaindian News

By that standards, pretty much everything that IAF and IA induct are made in India as well. OFB makes T-90, artillery and guns. HAL makes MKI.

My understanding of english can be different from yours ... its ok...
The article pointed out at the inducted of obsolete weaponary.....

They are plain wrong. And they will receive a proper answer anyway.

I am njoying living in this delusion .... but i dont think U r enjoying facing that it is part of a large reality scenario....

How so? Everything I say here is what IAF, IN and IA are doing.

Are they inducting more LCAs? No. Are they inducting more Rafales? Yes.

 

[p2prada]

@p2prada
Third Anti Submarine warfare corvette for Indian Navy launched in Kolkata , AniNews.in

Navy orders 30 ships from Indian dockyards - Thaindian News

here is two reference for my 80-90 % indigenous claim

If you read the article clearly it says 85% indigenization in 15 years. And guess how many of that is foreign JVs? There is a long time to go. And the remaining 15% are still critical systems.

By then LCA and Arjun will also achieve similar figures, if not higher. MKI and T-90 are already above 85% indigenization.

 

[p2prada]

I never said 100% home made .... Alot of products are bought from Foreign countries ...
Engines and all ... and few with TOT as well finally they will be made in India aswell I mean assembled here... Thats good enough

But it does give a scope and your production rate increases.

NO country suggests building of each and every part in the home land as it is sometime not cost effective... then there is the issue of time and requirement ... so getting stuff from outside is okay....


lets say its 50-50 ratio .... but its still better than 100% of foreign and at top of it as equal as any foreign machinery......

I think Chinese were very interested in our vessel .... thats one way to say world does get impressed by our not 100% products .....

At the time of Tejas there were sanstions imposed on us that time also we were looking for foreign support to build tejas .
It added to the huge delay ....
If tommorrow another country imposes sanctions or there is a war we will be self sustaining instead of waiting for the foreign parts to repair or replace......

Wikipedia has alot of revelant information and its not always incorrect ... most of us refer to it first then using it do the further evaluation ....
by googling those facts.....

Russia has never imposed sanctions on us and France had delayed deliveries and support due to a war, but even they haven't sanctioned us. Majority of our stuff comes from Russia, France and Israel. So, no threat of sanctions even if we test and use nuclear weapons.

Wikipedia has a lot of generic information which is correct. Look up engines, weapons and electronics for ships on Wikipedia before deciding what is indigenous on ships.

 

[ersakthivel]

There is no point in producing a foreign item like T-90 and Su-30 MKi and claim it increases our knowledge base and tech base.It gives us some shop floor experience but nothing else.

Because we did not design, identify the materials used ,test , put them on long evaluational trial and modified them .

Only on Arjun and Tejas we designed, identified the materials needed, tested, evaluated and modified them based on trials. Only this process builds our Research and development strength.

Of course still there are some complex electronic components on Arjun and tejas that ill be imported. But as time goes by they too can be localized.

And using the experience we can develop future products from them.

So while buying stuff that we need from abroad is justified , we should ensure a section of our fighting equipment designed here to grow our R&D base. Else Sweedes will junk grippen NG ang go for RAFALE. And french will junk rafale and consider JSF.

If they do it and import full compliment of their fighting equipment from outside their local design talent too will follow them to the places where the fighters are made and their strategically important high tech industries will fold down and they too will become a nation of shopkeepers.

 

[Pulkit]

Yes they do ... about MKI till the kits were coming from Russia as soon as they reached final stage they were unhappy .
They dont mind those products assembled in India . If they trust Indian made goods that much then .... we can say on paper ARjun Tank is far better than T90 ....
Quoting you only here i believe

The difference between Arjun Mk1 and T-90 is not that drastic. Arjun is said to be 0.84Kg/cm2. But note that the source does not indicate if that is the planned figure without the weight increases or actual ground pressure with the weight increase taken into consideration. T-90 is said to be around 0.9-0.91Kg/cm2. Even if that's Arjun's Mk1s final value, and not the heavier 67 ton Mk2, the difference is too small for it to matter in the overall scheme of things, especially considering the T-90 is lesser in weight by 12 tons compared to Mk1 and 21 tons compared to Mk2 while packing similar or even higher levels of survivability along with greater firepower.
p2prada ↑
Do you know how these small differences create large battle outcomes? Arjun can operate in swamps while T-90 can't. Do you know the kind of anti tank difences Pakistan has called ditch cum bund? Do you know they can flood those areas with water to stop tank assault? You need to know your enemy and his tactics also. Arjun has better fordging capability than T-90 and so it more suited for warfare in Punjab & Jammu sector besides being best for Desert warfare.
Every such site has paid members who spread falsehood on behalf of weapon manufacturers. Lets start a new thread and I would like to have a one-on-one debate with those defence professionals who claim T-90 to be better than Arjun. the fact that T-90 is better suited for northeast hills due to low temps clearly gives victory to Arjun. India has temps as high as 50*C in Thar and the temp inside the tank in such heat can easily go up to 60*C if cooling is not provided. The electronics will not work if they are not designed to withstand those temps and thats the biggest problem of all russian equipment.

I throw an open challenge to those who call T-90 superior to Arjun to debate with me.

but they still wanted T90 to be upgraded if I am not wrong for night vision and all....
They might be wrong or might not be ... but the MOD and Defense now knows people keep a close check on there activities and some day they will mak difficult decisions.
Rafale .... will see ... what the next gov does....
Tejas... With FGFA gone there is a little scope for that too.... they can go for extra 63 Rafale if at all deal matures .... which as per now appears will not....

They are not inducting as of now... They want to ... They might suceed or not.... future will tell....
Rafale and Tejas cannot be linked or compared ...
They are different diff role diff purpose....
Tejas is a much advanced machine in its category...So I will be be shocked that Rafale deal doesnot mature and more tejas mk1 and Tejas mk2 are asked by IAF....
Thats wat rests in the future we will have to wait wat happens .... I might be wrong or even right....

By that standards, pretty much everything that IAF and IA induct are made in India as well. OFB makes T-90, artillery and guns. HAL makes MKI.



They are plain wrong. And they will receive a proper answer anyway.



How so? Everything I say here is what IAF, IN and IA are doing.

Are they inducting more LCAs? No. Are they inducting more Rafales? Yes.

 

[p2prada]

radars are developed by drdo,

Try Russia, Israel and France.

Google MF-STAR.

electronics is also indigenous,

Not all of them. But many, yes. Many of them from JVs with foreign companies. Indigenization of the pressure gauge is not a big deal.

problem of missile will be solved by barack 8, brahmos,astra, indigenous torpedo etc .

Barak-8 is mostly Israeli. Google MF-STAR. Brahmos is also a JV with Russia having done most of the critical work. Indigenous torpedo, fine. But you listed only three weapons out of many more. Astra won't be used on ships. By that standards, IAF and IA have already ordered or inducted Akash SAM, Brahmos and Sudarshan. Two of these are completely indigenous. Pretty soon Nirbhay will be added to the list. In the Navy only one type of torpedo has been indigenized.

IAF and IA are doing something similar anyway. IA is a step ahead of IAF and IN by not allowing DRDO or OFB to join in some of their programs. They are supporting private companies to participate in some critical programs. One is a very major program. IN is trying to emulate that with LPDs and Corvettes and so is IAF with Rafale. I guess the only real feather in IN's cap is Arihant, but even that comes with a lot of mostly Russian equipment.

So engine is problem but that also will be solved by kaveri

Great. So you will use Kaveri to power a destroyer? Google the power output of what a frigate or destroyer needs and what Kaveri delivers. It is very easy to find, even Wikipedia has the answer.

 

[Pulkit]

you dont appear to be agree when i agree with you...

Yes they are not 100% ours will you be happy if i change the ration to 30-70 or 20-80....
It doesnot matter till we are putting ar eminds together to build something ... NO TOT and NO CONSULTANT.. Its more about knowledge ...
yes the countries have not put sanctions on us ... what is the surity they will not.... or just for the matter of fact delay ..... Israel and Russia have been close friends and they will be even in future.... France cant say....
Russia has got sanstions this time.... It needs to prepare its own defense now ,.... now it will also not prefer India over its own security...
In the recent days we have inclined towards otther coutries also ..... so we are increasing our dependency in one way....

That nuclear tests is totally different thing what will even a friend of us do in that case we donno ... we cant predict under iNTERNATIONAL PRESSURES....

Russia has never imposed sanctions on us and France had delayed deliveries and support due to a war, but even they haven't sanctioned us. Majority of our stuff comes from Russia, France and Israel. So, no threat of sanctions even if we test and use nuclear weapons.

Wikipedia has a lot of generic information which is correct. Look up engines, weapons and electronics for ships on Wikipedia before deciding what is indigenous on ships.

 

[p2prada]

Yes they do ... about MKI till the kits were coming from Russia as soon as they reached final stage they were unhappy .
They dont mind those products assembled in India . If they trust Indian made goods that much then .... we can say on paper ARjun Tank is far better than T90 ....

T-90S was developed and ready in 1998. Arjun was fully developed and ready only in 2008. It still had to clear winter trials which it did in 2010. Arjun being superior to T-90 is only because T-90 was ready in 1998 and will undergo upgrades soon, to bring it to Arjun Mk2 level or even go beyond that.

Most of the Arjun Mk2 upgrades only bring Arjun up to the level of 1998 T-90S. With the new electronics upgrade the T-90S will go through, it won't be very different. The T-90 is backed up by a far more capable industry than ours will ever be for a very long time.

So, Arjun was a decade late. That's a major reason why IA decided to go for sanction-proof T-90s (which was on paper and in practice superior to the Arjun is practically every way). Don't forget that after 1998 nuke tests most of the Arjun project came to a standstill because the Germans withdrew support. The support restarted in 2003, that was a 5 year delay.

With FGFA gone there is a little scope for that too.... they can go for extra 63 Rafale if at all deal matures .... which as per now appears will not....

That FGFA news is fake.

Rafale discussions for 63 options has already begun.

 

[Pulkit]

I believed you would have agreed to yourself atleast,, or was it not you in the post I mentioned...
T90 upgraded will be able to match Arjun that wat u meant i believe ...
Can Arjun never be upgraded???
Industry ... I thot atleast you would give that example in support... I thot iundustry didnt matter thats why you never supported HAL....
Then by that logic T-90 is 2 decade old now... and after upgradation a decade old....

Rafale donno where it is goin... let 126 deal get settled then will talk about rest 63...
Any source saying the deal for 63 has started??????

T-90S was developed and ready in 1998. Arjun was fully developed and ready only in 2008. It still had to clear winter trials which it did in 2010. Arjun being superior to T-90 is only because T-90 was ready in 1998 and will undergo upgrades soon, to bring it to Arjun Mk2 level or even go beyond that.

Most of the Arjun Mk2 upgrades only bring Arjun up to the level of 1998 T-90S. With the new electronics upgrade the T-90S will go through, it won't be very different. The T-90 is backed up by a far more capable industry than ours will ever be for a very long time.

So, Arjun was a decade late. That's a major reason why IA decided to go for sanction-proof T-90s (which was on paper and in practice superior to the Arjun is practically every way). Don't forget that after 1998 nuke tests most of the Arjun project came to a standstill because the Germans withdrew support. The support restarted in 2003, that was a 5 year delay.



That FGFA news is fake.

Rafale discussions for 63 options has already begun.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Try Russia, Israel and France.

Google MF-STAR.



Not all of them. But many, yes. Many of them from JVs with foreign companies. Indigenization of the pressure gauge is not a big deal.



Barak-8 is mostly Israeli. Google MF-STAR. Brahmos is also a JV with Russia having done most of the critical work. Indigenous torpedo, fine. But you listed only three weapons out of many more. Astra won't be used on ships. By that standards, IAF and IA have already ordered or inducted Akash SAM, Brahmos and Sudarshan. Two of these are completely indigenous.

before making fool comments go and find reference, radars and sonar is developed by drdo , astra was tasted by IN as sam and that article is 6 year old and navy is tasting sweet fruit cause indigenous level of newer ship is 90%

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@p2prada is real troll for eg he says he is fan of f16 and calls tejas flying bus then admits that tejas better than f16, if you are f16 fan then sadly you are fan of aircraft not of standards of flying bus and if you are f16 fan which is inferior to tejas then your criticizing tejas is stupidity

 

[p2prada]

I believed you would have agreed to yourself atleast,, or was it not you in the post I mentioned...
T90 upgraded will be able to match Arjun that wat u meant i believe ...
Can Arjun never be upgraded???

The electronics will be at par for both tanks. This will be quite consistent in the future also.

Industry ... I thot atleast you would give that example in support... I thot iundustry didnt matter thats why you never supported HAL....
Then by that logic T-90 is 2 decade old now... and after upgradation a decade old....

Yes, that's how it goes. The oldest T-90 will be two decades old by 2020. This could be around the time when the first Mk2 regiment is set up.

Rafale donno where it is goin... let 126 deal get settled then will talk about rest 63...
Any source saying the deal for 63 has started??????

The Rafale deal is almost done. The 63 options will be negotiated as a separate contract according to Khurshid during his French visit last year.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

At present there is not a single Nation produce 100% Indigenous Warship, There is always 10% import that may be furniture to some Specialized Rubber or Some paint or it can be some kind of Light, Not because its being unobtainable or very complex design but coz such small things are relatively cheap to import rather set up whole industry ..

During War such items are being stock piled or simple copied and put in production ..

I never said 100% home made .... Alot of products are bought from Foreign countries ...
Engines and all ... and few with TOT as well finally they will be made in India aswell I mean assembled here... Thats good enough