Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[SajeevJino]

Define how two rafales are more efficient than six tejas in killing any one.

Check out ...along with Tejas Weapon Profile

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/31082-dassault-rafale-wins-mmrca-227.html#post891105

there were 2 Two Seater Rafale carrying two Fuel tanks looks like 1200liters Tank enroute to reunion islands

a two seater rafale along with two 1200 liter tank can fly more than 2 hours can go 900km up/down ..So it's well we can see Rafale in SEAD config can engage target upto 400KM inside enemy territory with out Drop tanks ..

two drop tanks with a Full combat load it can go around 500 KM inside hostile Territory can Destroy enemy Infrastructure

with decent A2A load along with two or three Drop tanks can stay in the air for more than 2 hours can act as a Good CAP platform.

 

[SajeevJino]

Fact is it was accepted by indranil himself whose words you quoted from BR. Why dont you go there and ask clarification?

Yes ....With two Drop tanks clean profile or two A2A 700KM or 45 min

 

[ersakthivel]

Yes ....With two Drop tanks clean profile or two A2A 700KM or 45 min

Fuel fractions is what counts ultimately whatever the makers tom tom about the range of the planes and endurance it does not matter.

if tejas mk-2 has a close internal fuel weight/empty weight ratio of RAFALE it is imperative it will have the same ranges too with similar fractions of weapon loads and external fuel combos,

because both are deltas with highly efficient engine techs and close TWR ratios as well.

And drag too will be similar for higher external loads.

 

[SajeevJino]

Fuel fractions is what counts ultimately whatever the makers tom tom about the range of the planes and endurance it does not matter.

if tejas mk-2 has a close internal fuel weight/empty weight ratio of RAFALE it is imperative it will have the same ranges too with similar fractions of weapon loads and external fuel combos,

because both are deltas with highly efficient engine techs and close TWR ratios as well.

And drag too will be similar for higher external loads.

we will see after the LCA MK 2 ...Ho much worth is that one ..!!

 

[ersakthivel]

we will see after the LCA MK 2 ...Ho much worth is that one ..!!

of course.Lets see how better aerodynamics and more external fuel will work out.

 

[Pulkit]

Used to it is not a ques... I dont like personal attacks ... and hez done that with this comment to the extreme.there are ethics even in war.

In DFI any discussion with p2p on tejas will end up in acrimony, so why getting worked up over it? Get used to to it. Dont post in such large letters,

 

[p2prada]

Used to it is not a ques... I dont like personal attacks ... and hez done that with this comment to the extreme.there are ethics even in war.

Simple questions, no answers.

You support LCA you are basically supporting the advancement of the industry (your opinion, not universal) at the cost of the lives of our pilots. Don't you get that? More importantly, building more than the current numbers doesn't really benefit the industry directly, apart from helping maintain jobs. All the benefits the industry can manage can be done with the 178 planned to be ordered. More is not required. It is actually beyond more than required by the industry. 80 aircraft is all you need for all benefits to reach the industry. Look at Gripen NG.

You simply don't understand, but there was nothing unethical with what I posted. Even pilots will tell you the same. The only difference is with you being able to stomach it or not.

If we can afford better aircraft we will buy them and that's what we are doing.

 

[ersakthivel]

You support LCA you are basically supporting the advancement of the industry (your opinion, not universal) at the cost of the lives of our pilots.

Actually 400 tejas mk-2 in place of just 126 rafales will make indian skies impregnable, for the next twenty years.

Air defence capacity of 400 tejas mk-2 with similar sized and powered radar as that of RAFALE actually gives tejas mk-2 an edge in airdefence capability at almost the same budget.

There is no point in loading one rafale with 9 ton load and increase its chances of early detection manifold.


So it is not a charity to local industry kind of thing. It is having more or less equivalent force with 80 percent less forex out go,


So tejas mk-2 in high numbers will act as the ultimate peace maker averting war for the next two decades as no asian airforce is capable of taaking on a fleet of 400 tejas mk-2 which are close to grippen NG level.

Don't you get that? More importantly, building more than the current numbers doesn't really benefit the industry directly, apart from helping maintain jobs. All the benefits the industry can manage can be done with the 178 planned to be ordered. More is not required. It is actually beyond more than required by the industry. 80 aircraft is all you need for all benefits to reach the industry. Look at Gripen NG.

We should give reverse nobel prize in economics for the statement--"More importantly, building more than the current numbers doesn't really benefit the industry directly, apart from helping maintain jobs. All the benefits the industry can manage can b"e done with the 178 planned to be ordered"


grippen Ng is winning export orders hand over fist with the basic value proposition beating much costlier rafale and eurojet in many competition. It is not that the air force planners of the buying nation dont know that one rafale can do the job of 2 grippen NG as some guys are fond of peddling here, neither are they buying Grippen NGs for airshows and pride. Logic , rational analysis and economic benefits are behind every single grippen NG win more than anything else. By restricting ourself to a production run of 8 an year we are foregoing such an opportunity for tejas mk-2 exports.

You simply don't understand, but there was nothing unethical with what I posted. Even pilots will tell you the same. The only difference is with you being able to stomach it or not.

If we can afford better aircraft we will buy them and that's what we are doing.

400 tejas mk-2 pilots in place of 126 rafale pilots get indian airspace 4 times under better surveillance as both have almost the same radar ranges and power.

And any intruding threat can be dealt with overwhelming number in combo with much more powerful one SU-30 MKI combo with 2 tejas mk-2 for almost the same price of one rafale in airdefence.

So no pilot has to worry over his life as with the lowest clean config frontal RCS tejas can not be tracked by any opposing fighter radar in our airspace beyond 50 Km range,

while still receiving location co ords of enemy fighters from powerful SU-30 MKI flying safely behind or early warning dedicated fighters.With stealth Aura with K-9 set to join the EW fleet tejas mk-2 pilot is even more safer.

Thats why reputed defence analysts are questioning the capability that rafale brings to the IAf fleet for the price it demands, which is more than that of 5th gen stealth F-35 or the chinese 5th gen J-20 and J-30.

Just imagine PAf starts buying the chinese 5th gen stealth J-30 at almost the same or lesser price and at almost the same time frame as we start our local production of 4.5th gen RAFALE, We can realize the folly of rafale cost if and when such a situation arises. Till that time we can keep on singing price of rafale and dumping fake accusations on tejas mk-2.

Guys who are extremely concerned about the life of IAF pilot ,

and determined to save IAf from tejas mk-2s,

should explain how the 126 million RAFALE can detect and

shoot down fully 5th gen stealth J-20 or J-30 and aoid detection by them with its huge external load.

If not they can take their well earned rest as chinese have already said J-30 is slated for exports and there is no prize for guessing who will be the first export customer. PAF is the name



So it is time we shelve our fantasies of taking one rafale and beating 4 singapore air force F-16s in war games

and prepare to speedily replace the 400 tottering obsolete MiG fleet with 30 plus an year tejas mk-2 production rate and evolve the tejas mk-2 to stealth mode with internal weapons as swedes are already doing studies for their grippen Ngs as a stop gap measure before the ambitious AMCA and FGFA projects.


So time for salivating over the glossy brochures of hugely expensive eurojets have come and gone. It is time to plan a robust defence of indian skies with tailored to IAF needs tejas mk-2 which can do the same job with in an optimal combo with Su-30 MKi in a group at a far lesser cost and 80 percent lesser forex outgo..

 

[laughingbuddha]

Tunnel vision for some.
Looks like busy airspace with mediocre aircraft.

 

[ersakthivel]

looks like people want to funnel hard earned forex reserves into foreign MNC accounts in sweat heart deals .

RAFALE does not have a HMDS and a basic IRST, and no short range dedicated WVR worth the name and

has an engine whose tech is more than twenty years old along with the least powerful radar and by the same token least powerful EW suit ,of the lot does not seem to be a hurdle before funneling 20 billion dollars .

When cornered on specifics guys run away and then come back with prejudiced opinions as factual judgements with glib useless two liners.

And one thing is sure people want to shut down efforts on domestic fighter front and make india a client state forever funding the military aviation industries of countries smaller than a single indian state that have no cutting edge 5th gen fighter tech in it.

Getting sold on well made PR stuff is not what i call intelligence.

Now we have to buy 4.5th gen rafale add IRSt, HMDS along with R-73 all by paying extra money to russians , Israelis and other european countries and make it up to date, while let out capable indigenous effort rust in labs with token inductions costing pittance exactly as the army is doing with arjuns,

 

[SajeevJino]

looks like people want to funnel hard earned forex reserves into foreign MNC accounts in sweat heart deals .

RAFALE does not have a HMDS and a basic IRST, and no short range dedicated WVR worth the name and

has an engine whose tech is more than twenty years old along with the least powerful radar of the lot does not seem to be a hurdle before funneling billions of dollars .

When cornered on specifics guys run away and then come back with prejudiced opinions as factual judgements with glib useless two liners.

It's again and again repeated with rafale thread and LCA thread ..

what the primary Mission .and Why India Selected Rafale

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/32861-know-your-rafale.html

I don't know Why I giving that link ..But Seems new Members can easily catch up
@Drsomnath999

 

[laughingbuddha]

Well I'm sure the IAF is not as stupid as you make them out to be.
I'm pretty sure they factored all the pros and cons while selecting the winning bid.
Maybe they'll consult you next time.

 

[ersakthivel]

It's again and again repeated with rafale thread and LCA thread ..

what the primary Mission .and Why India Selected Rafale

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/32861-know-your-rafale.html

I don't know Why I giving that link ..But Seems new Members can easily catch up
@Drsomnath999

I was not racking it again and again, but the motivated campaign against tejas is carried out by one poster whose posts you like the most.

I am just countering him with some inconvenient facts . I did not start it.

I would have appreciated you if you have restrained him then saying that this is not tejas bashing thread and there is an exclusive tejas thread from where that guy disappeared since IOC-2.

neither do I remember you getting upset when the same guy raked up some stupid remarks in rafale thread as well.

Why indian selected rafale is not yet revealed to any one, in case you know please post,I know all the threads in DFI and which guys are interested in bashing tejas whether it is arjun thread or rafale thread of IAF thread or JF-17 thread.

Any way I appreciate your concerns for the new comers to DFI.

Well I'm sure the IAF is not as stupid as you make them out to be.
I'm pretty sure they factored all the pros and cons while selecting the winning bid.
Maybe they'll consult you next time.

So what did IAF think when it saw that there was no IRST, HMDS,and exclusive close combat WVR in rafale?

Actually when they short listed RAFALE neither ASEA was proved and shown to IAf nor meteor fired from rafale and validated.

Through out the trials it has only 60 Km range french air to air missiles.

Why is former IAF chief is being investigated in augusta westland?

Why was rafale's bid first thrown out?

What are the file notings on MMRCA deal when IAF suddenly changed its evaluating process by throwing away lifecycle cost , saying that it was incapable of assesing it?

When in 2004 IAF originally wanted to buy just another 124 mirages , since they already had Su-30 MKi for heavy duty long range strike missions?Now tejas mk-2 will trump upgraded Mirage-2000 in every respect, why it is called mediocre fighter?

If at all NDA govt promptly acceded the IAf request for 124 mirage-2000s , by now the induction would have been complete. But now even much higher tejas mk-2 wont fit the bill?

Answers to the question are hard to come by people accusing tejas as a mediocre aircraft which is as usual total BS.

So instead of holding the brief for MMRCA selection process of IAF you can enlighten every one by answering them right now, in case you know a thing or two about them.

And not last but the least , how is IAF proposing to counter chinese 5th gen stealth J-31 which is close to completion with way higer powered engines ,which will be sold to almost the same price as rafale for PAF(bankrolled by saudi funds , ofcorse).

If you say by AMCA and FGFA and then what is the purpose of 20 bllion dollar rafale in IAF?

When IAF was leisurely evaluating MMRCA tender for 7 years(in 7 years two Tds of tejas went up after receiving funding!!!) nobody saw J-20 and J-31 flying. Now the situation has changed, SO how will IAF justify highly costly acquisition of 4.5 th gen rafale when two 5th gen fighters are coming into the vicinity,

At least tejas is meant as an economical replacement for 400 odd obsolete MIgs till 5th gen plane arrives in IAF.What is the justification of rafale?

 

[laughingbuddha]

This is getting tedious. You win.
Though I'm looking forward to your rants when the deal is signed for the Rafale. Very soon. I am told. Cheers!

 

[SajeevJino]

Why indian selected rafale is not yet revealed to any one, in case you know please post,I know all the threads in DFI

don't Know what exactly you are Posted ..

Google Requirements of Indian MMRCA

 

[ersakthivel]

This is getting tedious. You win.
Though I'm looking forward to your rants when the deal is signed for the Rafale. Very soon. I am told. Cheers!

Cheers,
I too am relieved of rebutting some stupid no facts two liners of yours.

 

[ersakthivel]

don't Know what exactly you are Posted ..

Google Requirements of Indian MMRCA

Answer the questions in post 254.

Google too does not know the exact purpose of the MMRCA deal.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I hope so, Just making some smart talk wont make any conclusions ..

Links and source have to be provided to make something meaningful or it just another trolling or ranting with baseless facts ..

@p2prada not even giving a single reference and arguing with @ersakthivel who is giving reference for his every claim , p2prada sir, please give reference

 

[Kunal Biswas]

One should not confuse an light fighter with medium fighter which is Tejas and Rafale ..

But if someone still insist then as a light fighter it may carry lesser payload with similar range as a medium fighter But will archive objectives as medium fighter, This can be done to most objective in Indian centric operations ..

 

[p2prada]

things have change since 2009 like you said about j10 radar

J-10 has, but not LCA. LCA's information has been quite consistent. Like I said, go back and start reading. You will also realize how my own opinion has changed since then. I was a LCA supporter too, in 2009, but at the time IOC was promised in 2010.