Dhairya Yadav
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Dont deflect from my question. HTT 40 was proposal for basic trainer and is history.
HJT 39 is a advanced trainer still being designed by HAL and will complement BAE Hawk .
Indian Air Force: News & Discussions
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HJT 39 is a advanced trainer still being designed by HAL and will complement BAE Hawk .
Last I heard in Aug 2014 "HTT-40 wind tunnel tests by year end | sps-aviation.com"
HTT-40 should not be cancelled even though the import lobby is strongly pulling for cancellation. We will need the full gamut of trainers both for internal use and for export.
There is even an old DFI thread discussing the actions of the import lobby defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/53160-iaf-diluted-al-least-12-benchmarks-trainer-aircraft.html
And also this (same author Ajai Shukla as in above link)
"Why is IAF so keen on scuttling HAL's indigenous trainer aircraft?
March 26, 2014 11:47 IST
An IAF "request for information" floated on the MoD website invites Indian companies to submit preliminary bids to supply the IAF with 106 PC-7 Mk II trainers. Ajai Shukla reports
The Indian Air Force continues its quest to hand Pilatus Aircraft Ltd of Switzerland a Rs 6,000 contract for 106 PC-7 Mark II basic trainer aircraft, over and above the 75 Pilatus trainers already bought for Rs 3,850 crore (Swiss Franc 557 million).
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd is currently developing these 106 trainers in India, a project the IAF is sparing no effort to scuttle.
A new IAF "Request for Information" -- a pre-tender enquiry -- floated on the ministry of defence website invites Indian companies to submit preliminary bids to supply the IAF with 106 PC-7 Mk II trainers, in partnership with Pilatus. This envisages the import of an unspecified number of BTAs ready built, with the remainder being assembled in India. In MoD's procurement rule book, this is termed a "Buy & Make (Indian)" acquisition.
In floating this RFI, the IAF has openly defied the MoD. In 2009, while giving nod to the acquisition of 181 trainers, Defence Minister A K Antony ruled that 106 trainers would be built in HAL under the "Make" category, while 75 would be imported.
Since then, the IAF has repeatedly sought to subvert this decision. The MoD has confirmed to Business Standard that the 2009 decision to build 106 trainers in HAL, which was taken by the apex Defence Acquisition Council, remains valid.
"This RFI is a preliminary inquiry that the IAF has sent out, presumably to enlighten itself. This doesn't mean that an RfP (Request for Proposal, as a defence tender is called) will be issued," said the MoD spokesperson.
The IAF has consistently resisted HAL's indigenous trainer -- the Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 (HTT-40). As Business Standard reported (July 29, 2013, "Indian Air Force at war with Hindustan Aeronautics; wants to import, not build, a trainer") former IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, wrote personally to Antony, claiming that the HTT-40 would be costlier than the PC-7 Mk II. A cost analysis by Business Standard, however, suggested the HAL trainer would be much cheaper over its service life. The MoD did not accept the air chief's request.
The IAF next asked HAL to scuttle its own BTA project and instead build the PC-7 Mk II trainer in Bangalore with Pilatus technology (October 14, 2013, "IAF to HAL: Build Swiss trainer aircraft, don't develop your own"). HAL, which has worked steadily on the HTT-40, flatly rejected this proposition.
Bizarrely, Air Chief Marshal Browne next suggested that the PC-7 Mk II be built in an IAF base repair depots. Admitting that BRDs were meant only to maintain and overhaul aircraft and engines, he claimed last October that they could also assemble aircraft. The MoD simply ignored this suggestion, which was hastily rebutted by the IAF's maintenance chief, Air Marshal P Kanakaraj.
Now, with Air Chief Marshal Browne having retired and been cleared by the government to be an ambassador, reportedly to Finland, his successor, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, has proposed that Indian private companies build the PC-7 Mk II with Pilatus technology.
Industry experts say there is little in this proposal for private Indian companies. With each BTA priced at about Rs 35 crore, the 10 per cent profit margin from building 106 aircraft would be barely Rs 370 crore. This is a small compensation for the costs and risks of a company's first foray into aerospace manufacture.
Meanwhile, HAL continues work on the HTT-40. With MoD funding blocked by the IAF, HAL has already committed Rs 137 crore of its own money; and stands ready to allocate another Rs 200 crore. On a recent visit to HAL, Business Standard was briefed that the design of structural components is done; assembly drawings will be done by April. A first flight is targeted for early 2015.
"We had planned to build one flying prototype of the HTT-40 and one ground test specimen. Now, to speed up design and flight testing, HAL will build three flying prototypes and two ground test models," says Prashantsingh Bhadoria, one of HAL's talented young designers who is deputy head of the HTT-40 project.
HAL designers are confident that, given their major role in developing the Tejas fighter; and the Sitara intermediate jet trainer that is nearly complete, there is little doubt that the company will build a successful basic trainer.
IAF planners know that the procurement cost of an aircraft is just one-fifth to one-tenth of the cost of operating it through its service life. For that reason, an indigenous aircraft is significantly cheaper in the long term than an overseas purchase, where the IAF remains dependent for spares, overhauls and upgrades on foreign vendors who invariably jack up prices after the initial sale. HAL designers say they are ensuring a high degree of commonality in parts and sub-systems between the HTT-40 and the IJT. This will reduce production costs and also ease inventory problems in training establishments.
IAF pilots need three types of trainer aircraft. In Stage-1 training, rookie pilots learn basic flying on aircraft like the PC-7 Mk I, and the HTT-40. Stage-2 training involves more complex flying on aircraft like the Kiran Mark 1, or the Sitara IJT. Stage-3 training, which prepares pilots for occupying the cockpits of frontline IAF fighters, is done on Hawk advanced jet trainers, which are built in HAL."
HTT-40 should not be cancelled even though the import lobby is strongly pulling for cancellation. We will need the full gamut of trainers both for internal use and for export.
There is even an old DFI thread discussing the actions of the import lobby defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/53160-iaf-diluted-al-least-12-benchmarks-trainer-aircraft.html
And also this (same author Ajai Shukla as in above link)
"Why is IAF so keen on scuttling HAL's indigenous trainer aircraft?
March 26, 2014 11:47 IST
An IAF "request for information" floated on the MoD website invites Indian companies to submit preliminary bids to supply the IAF with 106 PC-7 Mk II trainers. Ajai Shukla reports
The Indian Air Force continues its quest to hand Pilatus Aircraft Ltd of Switzerland a Rs 6,000 contract for 106 PC-7 Mark II basic trainer aircraft, over and above the 75 Pilatus trainers already bought for Rs 3,850 crore (Swiss Franc 557 million).
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd is currently developing these 106 trainers in India, a project the IAF is sparing no effort to scuttle.
A new IAF "Request for Information" -- a pre-tender enquiry -- floated on the ministry of defence website invites Indian companies to submit preliminary bids to supply the IAF with 106 PC-7 Mk II trainers, in partnership with Pilatus. This envisages the import of an unspecified number of BTAs ready built, with the remainder being assembled in India. In MoD's procurement rule book, this is termed a "Buy & Make (Indian)" acquisition.
In floating this RFI, the IAF has openly defied the MoD. In 2009, while giving nod to the acquisition of 181 trainers, Defence Minister A K Antony ruled that 106 trainers would be built in HAL under the "Make" category, while 75 would be imported.
Since then, the IAF has repeatedly sought to subvert this decision. The MoD has confirmed to Business Standard that the 2009 decision to build 106 trainers in HAL, which was taken by the apex Defence Acquisition Council, remains valid.
"This RFI is a preliminary inquiry that the IAF has sent out, presumably to enlighten itself. This doesn't mean that an RfP (Request for Proposal, as a defence tender is called) will be issued," said the MoD spokesperson.
The IAF has consistently resisted HAL's indigenous trainer -- the Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 (HTT-40). As Business Standard reported (July 29, 2013, "Indian Air Force at war with Hindustan Aeronautics; wants to import, not build, a trainer") former IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, wrote personally to Antony, claiming that the HTT-40 would be costlier than the PC-7 Mk II. A cost analysis by Business Standard, however, suggested the HAL trainer would be much cheaper over its service life. The MoD did not accept the air chief's request.
The IAF next asked HAL to scuttle its own BTA project and instead build the PC-7 Mk II trainer in Bangalore with Pilatus technology (October 14, 2013, "IAF to HAL: Build Swiss trainer aircraft, don't develop your own"). HAL, which has worked steadily on the HTT-40, flatly rejected this proposition.
Bizarrely, Air Chief Marshal Browne next suggested that the PC-7 Mk II be built in an IAF base repair depots. Admitting that BRDs were meant only to maintain and overhaul aircraft and engines, he claimed last October that they could also assemble aircraft. The MoD simply ignored this suggestion, which was hastily rebutted by the IAF's maintenance chief, Air Marshal P Kanakaraj.
Now, with Air Chief Marshal Browne having retired and been cleared by the government to be an ambassador, reportedly to Finland, his successor, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, has proposed that Indian private companies build the PC-7 Mk II with Pilatus technology.
Industry experts say there is little in this proposal for private Indian companies. With each BTA priced at about Rs 35 crore, the 10 per cent profit margin from building 106 aircraft would be barely Rs 370 crore. This is a small compensation for the costs and risks of a company's first foray into aerospace manufacture.
Meanwhile, HAL continues work on the HTT-40. With MoD funding blocked by the IAF, HAL has already committed Rs 137 crore of its own money; and stands ready to allocate another Rs 200 crore. On a recent visit to HAL, Business Standard was briefed that the design of structural components is done; assembly drawings will be done by April. A first flight is targeted for early 2015.
"We had planned to build one flying prototype of the HTT-40 and one ground test specimen. Now, to speed up design and flight testing, HAL will build three flying prototypes and two ground test models," says Prashantsingh Bhadoria, one of HAL's talented young designers who is deputy head of the HTT-40 project.
HAL designers are confident that, given their major role in developing the Tejas fighter; and the Sitara intermediate jet trainer that is nearly complete, there is little doubt that the company will build a successful basic trainer.
IAF planners know that the procurement cost of an aircraft is just one-fifth to one-tenth of the cost of operating it through its service life. For that reason, an indigenous aircraft is significantly cheaper in the long term than an overseas purchase, where the IAF remains dependent for spares, overhauls and upgrades on foreign vendors who invariably jack up prices after the initial sale. HAL designers say they are ensuring a high degree of commonality in parts and sub-systems between the HTT-40 and the IJT. This will reduce production costs and also ease inventory problems in training establishments.
IAF pilots need three types of trainer aircraft. In Stage-1 training, rookie pilots learn basic flying on aircraft like the PC-7 Mk I, and the HTT-40. Stage-2 training involves more complex flying on aircraft like the Kiran Mark 1, or the Sitara IJT. Stage-3 training, which prepares pilots for occupying the cockpits of frontline IAF fighters, is done on Hawk advanced jet trainers, which are built in HAL."
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IAF thinking is more towards famed Fighter pilot centric then a logical battle ready force, Their view of the an Air-force is simple limited to own and fly jets and fight in Air and refuel and maintain them to fly them again ..
This is not how an Air-force of a country populated by 1.27 billion works, Unfortunately this is beyond their understanding until very recently when they are actually talking little steps to think as a real Air-force of a Nation facing adversaries as China ..
Some big Gaps in their Armour >>
1. No Reserve forces of Pilots unlike Army has TA ..
2. No security force to defend its own Aircraft and Airbases but the Ground crews and officials, Heavily depended on other forces including Army which is short of Men and machine on its own side ..
3. No or Little Air-defense of its own, What they have its horribly outdated and too little, Heavily dependent on Army for Air-defense whose own Air-defense is insufficient to even protect a single Strike force properly ..
4. Outdated Infrastructure of Major of Airbases, Some been observed with lack of Bombproof shelters, Even normal shelters for Fighter and Transport aircraft ..
5. Its battle strategy and plans are pre 1960s, It did not change as they work efficiently according them, IAF calls them Long Range Strike Mission, Air Defence (AD) (including Combat Air Patrol and point AD), Close Air Support, Air Defence Escorts to LRSM. Still have not created 1991 air package concept that US used in Iraq.
6. More ego than logic, Reluctant to understand or cooperate, Did not change or modified the outdated communication system with IA till date, Even after Kargil disaster ..
7. Expensive as well as ancient Foreign aircraft license made, Had issues with Spares and parts, Minimum 30% of any fighter force is grounded due to such issues ..
8. Lobby and Corrupt fishes are always dominated the IAF, They move attention and funds from needed sector to unnecessary spending calling and them as essential, Lobby fuels everything and corrupt among as work for them ..
@Pulkit
This is not how an Air-force of a country populated by 1.27 billion works, Unfortunately this is beyond their understanding until very recently when they are actually talking little steps to think as a real Air-force of a Nation facing adversaries as China ..
Some big Gaps in their Armour >>
1. No Reserve forces of Pilots unlike Army has TA ..
2. No security force to defend its own Aircraft and Airbases but the Ground crews and officials, Heavily depended on other forces including Army which is short of Men and machine on its own side ..
3. No or Little Air-defense of its own, What they have its horribly outdated and too little, Heavily dependent on Army for Air-defense whose own Air-defense is insufficient to even protect a single Strike force properly ..
4. Outdated Infrastructure of Major of Airbases, Some been observed with lack of Bombproof shelters, Even normal shelters for Fighter and Transport aircraft ..
5. Its battle strategy and plans are pre 1960s, It did not change as they work efficiently according them, IAF calls them Long Range Strike Mission, Air Defence (AD) (including Combat Air Patrol and point AD), Close Air Support, Air Defence Escorts to LRSM. Still have not created 1991 air package concept that US used in Iraq.
6. More ego than logic, Reluctant to understand or cooperate, Did not change or modified the outdated communication system with IA till date, Even after Kargil disaster ..
7. Expensive as well as ancient Foreign aircraft license made, Had issues with Spares and parts, Minimum 30% of any fighter force is grounded due to such issues ..
8. Lobby and Corrupt fishes are always dominated the IAF, They move attention and funds from needed sector to unnecessary spending calling and them as essential, Lobby fuels everything and corrupt among as work for them ..
@Pulkit
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indiatester
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While this is welcome, I wonder why the previous government did not do it. Was MMS so busy that he could not meet the defence chiefs once a month?
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Firstly thanks for the entire explanation.
Secondly Sorry in advance as many more explanations will be required....
20billion + deal..
Secondly Sorry in advance as many more explanations will be required....
I know that the Approach of IAF is conservative but what you just explained is the core aim or motive or purpose of an Airforce ..... our IAF is not fulfilling it even thats another case....
Recently there approach towards Tejas Worsened when they called it a LEAD Trainer A/C so I don't see any improvement and they are stuck at Rafale.....
20billion + deal..
Do we have enough pilots to operate an entire fleet of approved Squad of 42 ???? If yes then we don't need Reserve forces as we are not gonna have that fleet of full 42 in next decade atleast....
I thought till now it was responsibility of Army only..... Army is short of Officers true are we short of Jawans too.... 2 of my buddies got selected for training in Chennai....
I do not understand the term outdated here ... these are very complex weapons .... they can still hit....
I was talking to a friend in IAF he said that Infra to keep A/C is better than the maintenance ....
They are rigid Stubborn reluctant .....
Thats not gonna change its gonna get worse with Army operating its own Air wing....
MAintenance is improving as i heard.... Specially SU is maintained better
[/QUOTE]But people are still living in dream land.... dreaming.... when you talk about effect of lobbies in TEJAS ARJUN they don't accept ..... do know when all this si gonna mature.....
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My pleasure ..
Army has many tasks, Its already thin over eastern sector, besides Army need to secure its peace stations too, And giving protection of IAF infrastructure one would need a million strong just for Protecting Airbases around the country ..
IAF need to be Self-sufficient with its own Army for its own need, This is nothing new for large scale Air-forces around the globe ..
IAF recently understood this concept, Now deploying and increasing its Garud Commando Force for such tasks, They are also ordering 4X4 Armored Vehicles in Hundreds for this task which is most welcome by Army ..
===============
Akash perhaps, But with present count it can protect only few Major bases, FOBs are have or no Air-defense at all, Some installations have Pechora SAM ( 1950s ) system capable of engaging one target at a time that too is vulnerable to ECM from early 90s, And there is also OSA-AK-1 which is quite old from 70s and IAF version unlike Army were never upgraded, Missiles areold and malfunctioning, I have witness Army`s OSA-AK-1 firing myself and the probability of hitting an easy target is 5/10 with good working Missiles ..
===============
Being self-sufficient is necessary, For IAF as well ..
But everyone has his place, And communication must be strong ..
===============
==============
Army has many tasks, Its already thin over eastern sector, besides Army need to secure its peace stations too, And giving protection of IAF infrastructure one would need a million strong just for Protecting Airbases around the country ..
IAF need to be Self-sufficient with its own Army for its own need, This is nothing new for large scale Air-forces around the globe ..
IAF recently understood this concept, Now deploying and increasing its Garud Commando Force for such tasks, They are also ordering 4X4 Armored Vehicles in Hundreds for this task which is most welcome by Army ..
===============
Akash perhaps, But with present count it can protect only few Major bases, FOBs are have or no Air-defense at all, Some installations have Pechora SAM ( 1950s ) system capable of engaging one target at a time that too is vulnerable to ECM from early 90s, And there is also OSA-AK-1 which is quite old from 70s and IAF version unlike Army were never upgraded, Missiles areold and malfunctioning, I have witness Army`s OSA-AK-1 firing myself and the probability of hitting an easy target is 5/10 with good working Missiles ..
===============
Being self-sufficient is necessary, For IAF as well ..
But everyone has his place, And communication must be strong ..
===============
Source : The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News
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i dont think he actually made those comments - i believe he has been mis-quoted:-
Chinese incursion during Xi Jinping’s visit a mystery, Air chief Arup Raha says - The Times of India
Look at the difference between ISRO and HAL- DRDO
Modi needs transform hal-drdo to be more like isro ?
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/f...-indian-skies-601935?pfrom=home-lateststories
also read the readers comments that it took 30 plus years to realise that a pilot gets their feet stuck when
trying to eject, and compare THAT with isro.
Chinese incursion during Xi Jinping’s visit a mystery, Air chief Arup Raha says - The Times of India
Look at the difference between ISRO and HAL- DRDO
Modi needs transform hal-drdo to be more like isro ?
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/f...-indian-skies-601935?pfrom=home-lateststories
also read the readers comments that it took 30 plus years to realise that a pilot gets their feet stuck when
trying to eject, and compare THAT with isro.
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Zebra
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Please elaborate that.
It is not new. Write any comment in favour of Tejas, the mod (it is NDTV, so please read it as 'mob') will remove it.
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sesha_maruthi27
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Re: India Offers To Spend $12B To Break Monopoly
We should just have the private sector develop three different versions of the LCA mk2 and have a competition American style in order to choose the best, then have all three manufacturers build the winning design simultaneously to increase numbers rapidly.The Companies whose designs lost will have to pay a royalty fee tot he company whose design won .
We should just have the private sector develop three different versions of the LCA mk2 and have a competition American style in order to choose the best, then have all three manufacturers build the winning design simultaneously to increase numbers rapidly.The Companies whose designs lost will have to pay a royalty fee tot he company whose design won .
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Previous government was busy trying to set a new world record on; How many overseas defence companies can you Blacklist.
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Re: Tejas and Cold Start Doctrine
Sorry, I won't be drawn into a low-IQ discussion based on bad understanding of facts and figures, which will be a repeat of the one you had with @p2prada in that MMRCA thread. I'll go water my lilies instead.
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Air Force has a requirement for 250 LCA Mark-2s
==========================================
Its just matter of time when more assembly and manufacturing lines will be open in Gov / Pvt for Tejas ..
Source : India Offers To Spend $12B To Break Monopoly | Defense News | defensenews.com
==========================================
Its just matter of time when more assembly and manufacturing lines will be open in Gov / Pvt for Tejas ..
p2prada
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Re: Tejas and Cold Start Doctrine
Mig-21 line was dying out by then, so it was cheaper to switch to Mig-27 production. We bought a bunch of Mig-23s also.
We paid for the Mig-27s with rice and wheat. We couldn't afford more $$ for Jaguars.
Mig-21 line was dying out by then, so it was cheaper to switch to Mig-27 production. We bought a bunch of Mig-23s also.
p2prada
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Re: Tejas and Cold Start Doctrine
The Jaguar is capable of being integrated with Aim-120C. Let's just buy some and then call Jaguar air superiority aircraft.
p2prada
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Re: Tejas and Cold Start Doctrine
For CAS you need very low speeds, not supersonic. Read up on A-10 and Su-25.
power_monger
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Re: Tejas and Cold Start Doctrine
Thanks.I will try to get more information on this aspect.
JBH22
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Re: Tejas and Cold Start Doctrine
This plane is just epic with its combat record plus its damn cheap and rugged.
Had we gone for the Su-25 would have had a better CAS plane to provide dedicated air support.
This plane is just epic with its combat record plus its damn cheap and rugged.
