Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Bhurki]

12. No more will be done for reasons unrelated to the engines. Rest all will remain at Darin II stage

Are there any complications regarding deploying darin 3 on these aircraft? Price or operational glitches?

 

[varun9509]

Why are we even thinking about darin 3, Tejas is any day much more capable fighter / bomber than Jaguar, why not invest the same money there and retire the old Jags?

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[DG7867]

Why are we even thinking about darin 3, Tejas is any day much more capable fighter / bomber than Jaguar, why not invest the same money there and retire the old Jags?

Sent from my YU5510 using Tapatalk

Mk2/MWF will be replacing Jaguar starting 2025-27...

 

[Defcon 1]

Why are we even thinking about darin 3, Tejas is any day much more capable fighter / bomber than Jaguar, why not invest the same money there and retire the old Jags?

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Because its not the same money. An updated Jaguar is much cheaper than a brand new tejas. Also, upgraded Jaguars can be retired in 15 years. If you buy a brand new Tejas, you are stuck with a light fighter for next 35 years, where as all airforces are moving towards medium weight fighters.

 

[DG7867]

Because its not the same money. An updated Jaguar is much cheaper than a brand new tejas. Also, upgraded Jaguars can be retired in 15 years. If you buy a brand new Tejas, you are stuck with a light fighter for next 35 years, where as all airforces are moving towards medium weight fighters.

It still beats me how Tejas is an L-MRCA with weight of 13,300kg.. for comparison, Mig-21 is 8,800 kg, and Saab Gripen, which is considered a proper M-MRCA is 14,000kg. I think it's high time we start considering Tejas as proper M-MRCA rather than Mig-21 replacement.

 

[Bhurki]

Why are we even thinking about darin 3, Tejas is any day much more capable fighter / bomber than Jaguar, why not invest the same money there and retire the old Jags?

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Because we have 5.5 squadrons of them and can't really ground them all. Also on the other hand they've lost 15-30% of their thrust and are having a tough time being able to cover its combat range with any meaningful armament load.
If drastic measures aren't taken to increase its t/w, it might become obsolete before expected.

 

[varun9509]

Because its not the same money. An updated Jaguar is much cheaper than a brand new tejas. Also, upgraded Jaguars can be retired in 15 years. If you buy a brand new Tejas, you are stuck with a light fighter for next 35 years, where as all airforces are moving towards medium weight fighters.

A brand new tejas, which can do bombing way better than anything that IAF has in their inventory, can take up offensive counteraction role when required, will not shy away from flying higher, has better tech, and most of the fighter it is going to fight in coming decades are going to be 4-4.5 gen aircraft (only crazy Pakis think they will have a hand on 5 gen tech), and if weight is the issue then wait for mwf, darin 3 upgrade is a waste if money any way you see

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[Defcon 1]

It still beats me how Tejas is an L-MRCA with weight of 13,300kg.. for comparison, Mig-21 is 8,800 kg, and Saab Gripen, which is considered a proper M-MRCA is 14,000kg. I think it's high time we start considering Tejas as proper M-MRCA rather than Mig-21 replacement.

Gripen is not considered MRCA. Gripen E/F which were part of MMRCA competition have MTOW of 16,500 kg.

 

[varun9509]

BTW I've only recently started following defence news, so I can be completely wrong, but when I see a Jaguar, I see an underpowered undertech machine, which has alternatives in our inventory. These should be retired like Mig23 Mig21 Mig27, and wasting money on it doesn't seem right.

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[Defcon 1]

A brand new tejas, which can do bombing way better than anything that IAF has in their inventory, can take up offensive counteraction role when required, will not shy away from flying higher, has better tech, and most of the fighter it is going to fight in coming decades are going to be 4-4.5 gen aircraft (only crazy Pakis think they will have a hand on 5 gen tech), and if weight is the issue then wait for mwf, darin 3 upgrade is a waste if money any way you see

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MWF will come around 2027. With IAF already showing an intent of 201 fighters, even with an accelarated production rate of 24 per annum, the production line won't be free before 2035 at the earliest. Upgraded Jaguars will be retired before that.

Darin 3 upgrade will give the Jaguar multirole capability and it will surpass pakistani fighters in BVR arena and that can happen in a couple of years vs around 15 years for MWF

 

[Bhurki]

Darin 3 upgrade will give the Jaguar multirole capability and it will surpass pakistani fighters in BVR arena and that can happen in a couple of years vs around 15 years for MWF

"Rolls Royce Adour 811 engines of the 1980s vintage twin-engine aircraft have seen 15-30 percent reduction in thrust. “Since the thrust factor is coming down, the aircraft is already flying with lower load during peacetime operations as a precautionary measure,” top sources in the defence establishment were quoted as saying by The Print.

“The Jaguars would be grounded when their engine thrust comes below a specific point, as it would put the pilots’ lives at risk,” the sources added."

 

[Defcon 1]

"Rolls Royce Adour 811 engines of the 1980s vintage twin-engine aircraft have seen 15-30 percent reduction in thrust. “Since the thrust factor is coming down, the aircraft is already flying with lower load during peacetime operations as a precautionary measure,” top sources in the defence establishment were quoted as saying by The Print.

“The Jaguars would be grounded when their engine thrust comes below a specific point, as it would put the pilots’ lives at risk,” the sources added."

Didn't understand the point you are trying to convey in this post.

 

[Bhurki]

Didn't understand the point you are trying to convey in this post.

No point, just being wary.
How would darin 3 augment the performance of jaguar when the engines aren't capable of lifting all those multi role armaments to the desired range?. It does after all have just about 60 kN of thrust if we consider the declining performance of the engine.

 

[Defcon 1]

No point, just being wary.
How would darin 3 augment the performance of jaguar when the engines aren't capable of lifting all those multi role armaments to the desired range?. It does after all have just about 60 kN of thrust if we consider the declining performance of the engine.

Darin 3 includes engine upgrade

 

[Bhurki]

Darin 3 includes engine upgrade

No!!!!! How could you think that?
F-125 integration into jaguar was a completely different project in and of itself.
The Darin 3 upgrade incorporates new state-of-the-art avionics architecture including the Open System Architecture Mission Computer (OSAMC), Fire Control Radar, Solid State Digital Video Recording System (SSDVRS), Autopilot with Alt Select & HNAV and Identification of Friend or Foe (IFF) .
And all of this bound to have a weight increase to the airframe, all the while being supported by the same underpowered engines.
For learning more -
https://www.defenceaviation.com/2011/12/indian-air-force-darin-upgrades-for-sepecat-jaguar.html
"Engine replacement for Jaguar is also in progress. The engine replacement program is not a part of DARIN III upgrades"

 

[IndianHawk]

BTW I've only recently started following defence news, so I can be completely wrong, but when I see a Jaguar, I see an underpowered undertech machine, which has alternatives in our inventory. These should be retired like Mig23 Mig21 Mig27, and wasting money on it doesn't seem right.

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Thrust is only going down for older engines. Some 80 jaguar were build between 1990s and 2000s which will serve till 2035 . They are not low tech they have the first aesa in IAF inventory they can use derby ( same as lca ) . They can carry pgm, lgb etc. They can carry more bombs and heavier weapons than lca. Also they carry harpoon missile for anti ship role which is deadly.

Without re- engine there payload will come down which was much more than lca to now probably Equal to lca. And they will start to retire from 2025. Till then they are valuable fighters with well established squadron and everything operational. Lca sq will take years to operationalize .

Lca mk1a can theoratically replace them but true replacement is mwf. And 50-60 new jaguars will serve till 2035 anyway.

Also a lot depends on success of htfe 25 kn engine whose afterburner version could re engine jaguar with 40 kn wet thrust. Giving them new lease of life.

 

[IndianHawk]

MWF will come around 2027. With IAF already showing an intent of 201 fighters, even with an accelarated production rate of 24 per annum, the production line won't be free before 2035 at the earliest. Upgraded Jaguars will be retired before that.

Darin 3 upgrade will give the Jaguar multirole capability and it will surpass pakistani fighters in BVR arena and that can happen in a couple of years vs around 15 years for MWF

Last batch of jaguar (52 jags ) were manufactured between 2002-2008 they will complete at least 35-40 years in service and will retire only after 2035-40.

 

[Defcon 1]

No!!!!! How could you think that?
F-125 integration into jaguar was a completely different project in and of itself.
The Darin 3 upgrade incorporates new state-of-the-art avionics architecture including the Open System Architecture Mission Computer (OSAMC), Fire Control Radar, Solid State Digital Video Recording System (SSDVRS), Autopilot with Alt Select & HNAV and Identification of Friend or Foe (IFF) .
And all of this bound to have a weight increase to the airframe, all the while being supported by the same underpowered engines.
For learning more -
https://www.defenceaviation.com/2011/12/indian-air-force-darin-upgrades-for-sepecat-jaguar.html
"Engine replacement for Jaguar is also in progress. The engine replacement program is not a part of DARIN III upgrades"

Thanks. What I meant was, aircraft going for for Darin III would go for engine upgrade as well, and hence increase in weight wouldn't be a problem.

 

[uoftotaku]

Why are we even thinking about darin 3, Tejas is any day much more capable fighter / bomber than Jaguar, why not invest the same money there and retire the old Jags?

Sent from my YU5510 using Tapatalk

Jag is unsurpassed at low level penetration. It has a specific role in the IAF which will not be filled by LCA as its a different type of beast. Payload capacity wise it might be on low end, but it has attributes which make it ideal for CAS and precision strike. Its current problem is lack of a in-built self defense suite which is being addressed and the lack of a radar (which Darin III was supposed to resolve)

Loss of F125 is not a huge problem. RTM had offered its Adour 821 which is basically a re-built engine with better thrust and fuel consumption. IAF / HAL had rejected it initially because it didn't offer "enough" increase in base thrust for their liking but it was significantly cheaper and technically straightforward. With the current fleet of engines facing thrust shortfalls, this type of simple upgrade program can easily alleviate immediate issues.

 

[Why so serious?]

Cross post.


IAF's 17 Squadron to be resurrected on Tuesday; to be first Rafale unit
PTI | Updated: Sep 10, 2019, 08:49 IST

PTI
Representational photo.
HIGHLIGHTS

• IAF chief B S Dhanoa will resurrect the 17 squadron at an event on Tuesday at the Ambala Air Force Station as it prepares to receive the Rafale jets, official sources said
• The 'Golden Arrows' 17 Squadron, which operated from Bathinda air base, was disbanded in 2016 after the IAF started gradual phasing out of Russian-origin Mig 21 jets

NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force on Tuesday is expected to resurrect its 'Golden Arrows' 17 Squadron which will be the first unit to fly the multi-role Rafale fighter jets.


IAF chief B S Dhanoa will resurrect the 17 squadron at an event on Tuesday at the
Ambala Air Force Station as it prepares to receive the Rafale jets, official sources said.


The 'Golden Arrows' 17 Squadron was commanded by Air Chief Marshal
Dhanoa during the Kargil war in 1999.


The squadron, which operated from Bathinda air base, was disbanded in 2016 after the IAF started gradual phasing out of Russian-origin Mig 21 jets.


The squadron was formed in 1951, and initially it flew de Havilland Vampire F Mk 52 fighters.


India is expected to receive the first Rafale jet
by end of this month.


The IAF has already completed preparations, including readying required infrastructure and training of pilots, to welcome the fighter aircraft.


The sources said the first squadron of the aircraft will be deployed at the Ambala Air Force Station, considered one of the most strategically located bases of the IAF. The Indo-Pak border is around 220 km from there.


The second squadron of Rafale will be stationed at Hasimara base in West Bengal.


India had inked an inter-governmental agreement with France in September 2016 for procurement of 36 Rafale fighter jets at a cost of around Rs 58,000 crore.


A number of IAF teams have already visited France to help Dassault Aviation, the manufacturer of Rafale, incorporate India-specific enhancements on-board the fighter aircraft


The Rafale jets will come with various India-specific modifications, including Israeli helmet-mounted displays, radar warning receivers, low band jammers, 10-hour flight data recording, infra-red search and tracking systems among others.


The Congress raised several questions about the deal, including on rates of the aircraft, and alleged corruption but the government has rejected the charges.


The IAF spent around Rs 400 crore to develop required infrastructure like shelters, hangers and maintenance facilities at the two bases.


In July 2017, Air Chief Marshal B S Dhanoa, during his visit to France, flew a Rafale jet at the Saint-Dizier airbase to gain first-hand experience of the aircraft.


According to the deal, the delivery of the jets was to be completed in 67 months from the date the contract was inked.