Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[gryphus-scarface]

No No and No...
The indigenous bug is alright and great provided that :

It can not be obtained easily internationally.

So lets waste money trying to buy everything we can from abroad. That'll work. Oh wait! It doesn't because we aren't the richest country on the planet, and we can't afford it.

It can be developed at affordable cost.

Economies of scale. Nothing will ever be affordable if you spend billions on development and then buy one unit.

It has a very high domestic / indigenous content rather than assembly a la Arjun Tank. OR ALH or Tajas.

Tejas is pretty damn cheap.

It is technologically comparable and competitive product if not better

And right now DRDO is offering less capable products where?

It is at competitive price if not cheaper..

It will only be cheaper if ordered en masse. Otherwise it will always be costly. See the F-35 program, which is currently making F-35s which are cheaper than the Rafale and Typhoon.

It adds to domestic economy and results in savings rather than meant to run a parasite organisation only..

Will happen only if it is encouraged.

It is readily available to the user or made available as per requirements

You do realise that development takes time right? The Army should make its requirements, and then DRDO or any other designer should design the product.

It is in time and does not run into multiple overcosts..

Cost overruns happen in a lot of projects. Across the world. The only thing is that we need to learn to make better estimates. With some experience it should be easier now.

It provides a value to the developers, users and country.

When has indigenous development not?

It has an earning value and can be exported .

This will only happen after a few iterations. Tejas is an exception. Many countries have mature products that are mass produced and have a lot of experience behind them, and are thus hard to compete against. See how China entered the exports market?

Tejas was just for example and there thousands more ?

Don't know what you are saying here.

You take 60 years to make a grenade where Indian Forces wait under a banana tree for banana to fall.

When did it ever take 60 years when the government provided funds on time?

Do imose slavery in the name of indigenous.

Hyperbole. Indigenous development is necessary for India to grow. If we want to project power, or want to use our weapons in war, we can't rely on foreign manufacturers. Sanctions can fall any time. And how do you expect India to magically develop indigenous weapons of top quality with no experience?

 

[Bhadra]

So lets waste money trying to buy everything we can from abroad. That'll work. Oh wait! It doesn't because we aren't the richest country on the planet, and we can't afford it.

Economies of scale. Nothing will ever be affordable if you spend billions on development and then buy one unit.



Tejas is pretty damn cheap.


And right now DRDO is offering less capable products where?


It will only be cheaper if ordered en masse. Otherwise it will always be costly. See the F-35 program, which is currently making F-35s which are cheaper than the Rafale and Typhoon.


Will happen only if it is encouraged.


You do realise that development takes time right? The Army should make its requirements, and then DRDO or any other designer should design the product.

Cost overruns happen in a lot of projects. Across the world. The only thing is that we need to learn to make better estimates. With some experience it should be easier now.


When has indigenous development not?

This will only happen after a few iterations. Tejas is an exception. Many countries have mature products that are mass produced and have a lot of experience behind them, and are thus hard to compete against. See how China entered the exports market?

Don't know what you are saying here.

When did it ever take 60 years when the government provided funds on time?

Hyperbole. Indigenous development is necessary for India to grow. If we want to project power, or want to use our weapons in war, we can't rely on foreign manufacturers. Sanctions can fall any time. And how do you expect India to magically develop indigenous weapons of top quality with no experience?

So the key to all ills as per you is every thing indigenous ..right ?
What percentage of US consumption is produced indigenously ?
What percentage of European consumption including armaments is produced endogenously ?
In order to facilitate producers to have "economy of scale" the user should start demanding ten tanks for requirement of one and that will be delivered over ten years !
When user considers of buying a thing he must be made to pay not competitive but forced price ? I must drink my cows milk which costs me Rs 100 ltr even if same milk is available in market at Rs 20/- ltr ?
Which economics is that ?
If that is how economics worked then every household in this country must own and plough his fields for rice, have his own well, weave his own textile and make his own car, electricity and run his own school.

Things are simple - We can neither afford to waste money in importing armaments nor compromise our independence by using substandard and very expansive armaments to promote indigenisation If indigenisation does not mean modernisation, fulfilling requirements of time and space, quality and economy , it has no meaning and is worthless.

That concludes my arguments.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

So the key to all ills as per you is every thing indigenous ..right ?

Don't put words in my mouth. Never said its the cure to all ills.

What percentage of US consumption is produced indigenously ?

Consumer != Military. What percentage of American Military goods are imported?

What percentage of European consumption including armaments is produced endogenously ?

Quite a bit actually. More than India is doing at least.

In order to facilitate producers to have "economy of scale" the user should start demanding ten tanks for
requirement of one and that will be delivered over ten years !

No. All they need to do is figure out their needs, and then build tanks accordingly. Invite other countries to also buy.

When user considers of buying a thing he must be made to pay not competitive but forced price ? I must drink my cows milk which costs me Rs 100 ltr even if same milk is available in market at Rs 20/- ltr ?

Why is indigenous == no competition? In India today yes, but the situation is changing. Private players are slowly entering, and it won't be too long before we also have competitions for all indigenous goods. By the way I don't see France complaining about this.

Which economics is that ?
If that is how economics worked then every household in this country must own and plough his fields for rice, have his own well, weave his own textile and make his own car, electricity and run his own school.

Don't make up silly strawmen. I never said that people set their own prices.

Things are simple - We can neither afford to waste money in importing armaments nor compromise our independence by using substandard and very expansive armaments to promote indigenisation If indigenisation does not mean modernisation, fulfilling requirements of time and space, quality and economy , it has no meaning and is worthless.

Please show me how indigenisation is not leading to modernisation. And please study how China improved their indigenous sector. They've gone from literally nothing to being US's biggest credible threat.

That concludes my arguments.

Yeah lets stop derailing this thread.

 

[IndianHawk]

This bhadra guy is akin to an illogical black hole .
Eating entire threads with nonsensical straw man
Arguments in the wake of his endless appetite to smear DRDO and indegenios development.



Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[Aaj ka hero]

This bhadra guy is akin to an illogical black hole .
Eating entire threads with nonsensical straw man
Arguments in the wake of his endless appetite to smear DRDO and indegenios development.



Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

I am engaging him in drdo and psu discussions thread.:biggrin2:
Sirji, give good luck to me.

 

[IndianHawk]

I am engaging him in drdo and psu discussions thread.:biggrin2:
Sirji, give good luck to me.

He keeps changing the goal post .
Here he is criticizing indegenios efforts. In lch thread he is criticizing imported content !

I don't know what does he even wants other than endless debate. Save you time buddy or don't. Lol.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[Aaj ka hero]

He keeps changing the goal post .
Here he is criticizing indegenios efforts. In lch thread he is criticizing imported content !

I don't know what does he even wants other than endless debate. Save you time buddy or don't. Lol.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

I also suffered the same thing.
I don't want to waste time there really on meaningless battles, I just got angered when he said "you don't know your position".
I come here for discussions and learning about strategic issues not to hear abuse.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

I agree that logic does not work with any MoD agency till they continue to be tools of big time kickbacks and corruption money !
ISRO has its own culture, discipline, work ethos and a sense of dedication. They have developed that over so many years under admirable and competent leadership. They take pride in being a class in themselves. They have built an "institution" rather than being a social justice employment agency. They partner with the best institutions of the world like NASA rather than priding in cultivating "Bhoot Mirchi".

That is what makes the difference.

There is nothing that make difference. Other PSUs have same culture as that of ISRO however have a totally different field with larger spectrum, different customers and requirements.

ISRO is same is that of any other PSU and overvalued by naive people because of context. The homegrown technologies we are using today which are matured are so because they couldn't be imported.

If you believe anything different, you are an idiot. I don't care whether you are a defence professional or what. You know nothing about ISRO and just acting as an irritant.

 

[Bhadra]

There is nothing that make difference. Other PSUs have same culture as that of ISRO however have a totally different field with larger spectrum, different customers and requirements.

ISRO is same is that of any other PSU and overvalued by naive people because of context. The homegrown technologies we are using today which are matured are so because they couldn't be imported.

If you believe anything different, you are an idiot. I don't care whether you are a defence professional or what. You know nothing about ISRO and just acting as an irritant.

So you think you are a certification authority or an agent of certification for my knowledge.
You have right to your views and me mine ....
It is irrelevant in a conversation if I know something or not. Stop there only before graduating to abuses. I am foresee that trait...

 

[Bhadra]

This bhadra guy is akin to an illogical black hole .
Eating entire threads with nonsensical straw man
Arguments in the wake of his endless appetite to smear DRDO and indegenios development.



Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

I am glad you realise that not everyone will take whatever your peddle and make a fool of system with your pictures and fantasies..
Nothing on ground....... Sci Fi recruits....

 

[Kchontha]

This thread is becoming bhadradri thread.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Indx TechStyle]

So you think you are a certification authority or an agent of certification for my knowledge.
You have right to your views and me mine ....
It is irrelevant in a conversation if I know something or not. Stop there only before graduating to abuses. I am foresee that trait...

You have gone beyond that. I don't need to issue any certificate. You have openly showcased your level of knowledge by comparing two completely different PSUs like YouTube comments fanboys.

And before warning me to avoid graduate to abuses (warning what I don't need from an immature person), just look at the unprofessional and ignorant garbage you have filled around for one particular PSU.

Certificate is issued for knowledge, not stupid prejudices made up in fanboy pages. That's the thing which makes distinction between a mature & knowledgeable Military observer and a time pass troll.

I don't need to write anything more. Study about all PSU organizations, their capabilities, kind of jobs and their position with respect to international counterparts. You will find yourself stupid!

 

[Bhadra]

This thread is becoming bhadradri thread.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

Bhadraadi ... you mean. You could have termed it as Bhadra Uvacha ... a better term.

कहु रहीम कैसे निभै, बेर केर को संग।
वे डोलत रस आपने, उनके फाटत अंग।।

 

[Bhadra]

You have gone beyond that. I don't need to issue any certificate. You have openly showcased your level of knowledge by comparing two completely different PSUs like YouTube comments fanboys.

And before warning me to avoid graduate to abuses (warning what I don't need from an immature person), just look at the unprofessional and ignorant garbage you have filled around for one particular PSU.

Certificate is issued for knowledge, not stupid prejudices made up in fanboy pages. That's the thing which makes distinction between a mature & knowledgeable Military observer and a time pass troll.

I don't need to write anything more. Study about all PSU organizations, their capabilities, kind of jobs and their position with respect to international counterparts. You will find yourself stupid!

You certainly are certifying like a foreman or a supervisor. Two members may not like each others views that is fine but exhibiting one's traits was not called for.

Every one know about that so called PSU ( which PSU ?? ) which produces things that kill own soldiers at home and deliberately does not produce things to stall Indian Army capabilities to the benefit of enemies .Those who matter are seized with it. If CAG of the country and Services Chiefs keeps saying things in so many words, I do not have to say anything.

I place my facts on ground and do not troll ... take that ..ok.
The case rests here.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

You certainly are certifying like a foreman or a supervisor. Two members may not like each others views that is fine but exhibiting one's traits was not called for.

We aren't here for views. We are real observers and everything is supposed to get cleared to us. We aren't random guys sitting at corner with prejudices.

If its all about perception and belief, its better for defence enthusiasts to leave their hobby of studying things on ground and believe in perception of countries and institutions.

I place my facts on ground and do not troll ... take that ..ok.

Let's start over this. ISRO having sort of better "culture" while DRDO not having same has no substance.

Put some here if you believe that there is a gap between achievements of both.

 

[Arihant Roy]

Air Chief Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa today flew a missing man formation with Air Marshal Raghunath Nambair, AOC Western Command in honor of Squadron Leader Surendra Ahuja, his No 2 and Flight leader of 17 squadron Golden Arrows during Op Safed Sagar.

 

[WolfPack86]

#IAF plans to retire R-77 AAMs across all Russian fighter fleet

.

Russian-made Vympel R-77 (AA-12 ‘Adder’) beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) which has been under cloud of controversies off late in India is set to be retired by Indian air force across all Russian fighter aircraft fleet by 2021-22. Aging Vympel R-77 are fitted on board the Su-30 MKIs, MiG-29s, and MiG-21 Bisons and were first bought from Russia starting 1996.

Mig-29A was the first fighter jet which was locally integrated with Vympel R-77 AAMs by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in 1996 and was later also integrated into upgraded Mig-21Bis and were main BVRAAMs on Su-30 MKIs which were inducted from 2001 onwards in IAF.

IAF had placed orders for 1000 R-77 AAMs from 1996 onwards and each missile costs approximately 2 crores each. According to the audit report filed by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) nearly half the missiles tested either did not home in on targets during evaluations or failed ground tests because they were aging much before their shelf lives.

CAG had also blasted Indian Navy for buying same Vympel R-77 BVR missile for the MiG-29K weapons package despite having adverse observations about the missile’s serviceability by the air force. IAF already has got rid of older stocks of the missiles due to High rate of unserviceability and decided against refurbishing the missiles after Russian offer in 2005.

IAF is counting on mass production and induction of locally developed Astra AAMs to replace Vympel R-77 BVR missile from its inventory and will be main beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) in Su-30 MKIs and on upgraded Mig-29UPG from 2022 onwards. Mig-21Bis will be retired by that time in the same period.

IAF is also planning to procure Rafael Advanced Defense Systems developed I-Derby ER (extended range) beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) with a range of 100kms for both Su-30 MKIs and Mig-29UPG in addition to Astra AAMs and also integrate ASRAAM air-to-air close combat missile in its Sukhoi Su-30 MKI Fighters. R-73 Close combat Missile which was used by Mig-21Bis to shoot down Pakistani F-16 will continue to be service till they complete their service shelf life.
.https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[WolfPack86]

#Masterpieces_of_Rafael...

(From the left)

#I_DERBY_ER - 100+km range BVRAAM powered with dual pulse motor. The new BVRAAM are equipped with lighter & more compact active radar homing seeker.

#Python_5 - Combat proven short range AAM. Equipped with IIR seeker the AAM is capable to Intercept it's target at the maximum range of 25Km.

#Iron_Dome - The most combat proven air defence/counter artillery air defence system. The Iron Dome can calculate the trajectory of enemy artillery shells to Intercept minimum targets that actually poses threat to National assets. That can reduce the cost effectively during massive rocket artillery or mortar artillery shells fired from the land of adversaries.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[IndianHawk]

Got it from f16 forum . Don't know how accurate it is. But if it's anywhere near actual data then China has 800 obsolete fighters.
The most dangerous are 350 su30 copies and new su35. Other not obsolete fighter is j10 also 350+ .

Other than these 700 fighters rest is fluff.
And China needs to face USA , Japan , south korea and Taiwan. Have to keep some airpower against Russia also.

Not much left to put up against India.

IAF can take its time to indegeniosation. I don't see any rush for either 5g or huge numbers.

Rafale and MKI upgrade are more than enough to put China on backfoot in decent numbers.

Mwf can fill up the numbers gap in due course. And we can certainly wait for amca to mature and deploy .

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[rone]

did IAF have aggressor or Adversary squ. for in house training? if there which one?