India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[Sanglamorre]

Ah, I see, you are a man of culture as well !

Any chance you were in Binnaguri/Bengdubi area ?

Not quite. I spent some summer vacations in Bagdogra at my cousin's place, and when I was a child, some holidays in Siliguri where my father used to work.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Pakistan to remain on FATF grey list

At an FATF meeting in February, Islamabad had been told that ‘all deadlines’ had expired and if they didn’t prosecute and penalise terrorist financing by June, the watchdog would take action.

indianexpress.com

Pakistan to remain on FATF grey list

 

[AmitG]

Interesting discussion on India today about the govt being advised to use the Indian navy to choke Chinese shipping in the Indian Ocean. It’s China’s Achilles heel inspite of all the money they have invested in their navy. The Andamans and the Indian landmass can really be used to choke the Chinese. But can the govt grow a pair and go up the escalation ladder and up this route. That is the big question. I doubt it very much. we are more in the pappi jhappi business.

 

[Holy Triad]

Army friend I just spoke to in Ladakh cautions against any 'excitement' about de-escalation.

In his words: "Running commentary on each guy or truck that pulls back makes no sense.
This is long haul.
Trust non-existent.
We are fully prepared to see this stretch out."

 

[Godhimself]

 

[bhramos]

 

[WARREN SS]

View attachment 51264

World change Since 1962

 

[cereal killer]

Interesting discussion on India today about the govt being advised to use the Indian navy to choke Chinese shipping in the Indian Ocean. It’s China’s Achilles heel inspite of all the money they have invested in their navy. The Andamans and the Indian landmass can really be used to choke the Chinese. But can the govt grow a pair and go up the escalation ladder and up this route. That is the big question. I doubt it very much. we are more in the pappi jhappi business.

Malacca is one of the busiest trade routes in the world. Not only China but other countries also rely on it. We can choke it only when the situation gets out of hand & Navy gets involved which is highly unlikely since China has tensions with Japan too & US destroyers are nearby. They won't leave their mainland undefended. That being said if fighting starts then we should destroy Djibouti base first thing.

 

[maomao]

The way this discussion is going looks like it will be deescalation. Though the sensex is down for the second day today

Sensex was shooting up when IA was busy killing Bat Munchers! So, leave sensex aside!

 

[Anandhu Krishna]

Meaning.
What I am trying to tell is that If China can take help of Pak to confront India, there is no shame in taking help of US. We can't fight 2 fronts alone.

We shouldn't expect somebody else to do our job for us.

India can win a defensive war at the 2 fronts.

The only offensive should be to cut off CPEC and ofcourse where we have tactical advantage.

 

[WARREN SS]

Interesting discussion on India today about the govt being advised to use the Indian navy to choke Chinese shipping in the Indian Ocean. It’s China’s Achilles heel inspite of all the money they have invested in their navy. The Andamans and the Indian landmass can really be used to choke the Chinese. But can the govt grow a pair and go up the escalation ladder and up this route. That is the big question. I doubt it very much. we are more in the pappi jhappi business.

Govt Is Not Into Jhappi bussiness Each and Every Move is Calculated

this Not just ordinary business 2 billion People Life's at stake

 

[Sehwag213]

We shouldn't expect somebody else to do our job for us.

India can win a defensive war at the 2 fronts.

The only offensive should be to cut off CPEC and ofcourse where we have tactical advantage.

I am telling that we should purchase it.
I am not asking US to help us out.

 

[doreamon]

china jumped from zero casualty to less than 20 casualty


China on Wednesday attempted to pacify the aggrieved families of the Chinese soldiers who were killed in clashes with Indian troops along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh”s Galwan valley, without any official recognition from Beijing. The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) regime”s mouthpiece, The Global Times, written by its editor Hu Xijn claimed that “the dead have been treated with the highest respect in the military, and that the information will eventually be reported to society at the right time, so that heroes can be honored and remembered as they deserve.” The editorial came two days after a video emerged from China showing that the families of the People”s Liberation Army (PLA) personnel were outraged by the fact that unlike Indian soldiers, their martyrs had received no honor and no acknowledgment. The video went viral on social media. Though the Global Times has admitted that “less than 20” PLA soldiers were killed in the violent face-off in Ladakh, the Xi Jinping government has remained tight-lipped about them. Paying “high tribute to the PLA officers and soldiers”, Hu wrote, “China”s security and the tranquility of China”s borders depend upon them. Thus far, the Chinese military has not released any information about the deceased. As both a former soldier and current media professional, I understand that this is an expedient move with the aim of not irritating public opinion in the two countries, especially in India. This is Beijing”s goodwill.” Lamenting that the Indian media claimed that at least 40 Chinese soldiers were killed, and India has handed over the bodies of 16 Chinese soldiers, the Global Times editor in his long piece called them “unchallenged rumors”. Bragging about the violent face-off in Ladakh, he wrote,”The PLA has taught a lesson to the Indian side, which has always misjudged Chinese people”s determination and advantages. The PLA has demonstrated its strength and determination to use force when necessary, which is a strong deterrent to the Indian side, especially their frontline troops. The PLA not only showed its ability to bring the situation under control, but also gained a psychological advantage over the Indian army on the ground.” Some in India, he said, preach that the PLA, which has not fought a war for more than 30 years now, is an army that does not know how to fight. “Their arrogance is frivolous. It is now clear who is the egg and who is the rock,” he wrote. Threatening India, the Global Times editor said, “Don”t mess with the PLA. That is our stern warning to those who want to take advantage of changes in the international situation to challenge China”s core interests.” The PLA, he revealed, has made a “strong deployment and is ready to hit the hysterical intruders hard.” At the same time, this deployment aims to avoid the occurrence of greater conflicts, he added.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website https://idrw.org/china-tries-to-pacify-families-of-unsung-pla-soldiers-killed-in-ladakh/#more-229834 .

 

[AmitG]

Govt Is Not Into Jhappi bussiness Each and Every Move is Calculated

this Not just ordinary business 2 billion People Life's at stake

I’ll believe that when I see it. Till now I have not seen anything different with regards to the Chinese than what has been going on over the years.

 

[Holy Triad]

Wow,BRCC guys ran a news piece on this issue with back drop of Establishment 22 (sff)

Worth a read,

A CIA Operation to Train Tibetan Guerrillas Looms Over India-China Himalayan Clash

There are a lot of ways to die in the Himalayas. Frostbite.

coffeeordie.com

the 1960s.

During the Cold War, the CIA trained Tibetan freedom fighters at Camp Hale, Colorado. Photo by Nolan Peterson/Coffee or Die.Establishment 22
In 1962, the CIA’s Tibet operation was in limbo. The Kennedy administration questioned the utility of the mission due to the botched Bay of Pigs invasion and a budding rapprochement with a skittish India, already navigating tricky times with China.

The Dalai Lama’s presence in India in exile and the CIA’s recruitment of Tibetan fighters from India-based refugee communities made the CIA’s mission in Tibet a political liability for New Delhi’s fragile relations with Beijing. Thus, backing a secret CIA war in Chinese-occupied Tibet was decidedly not in India’s interest at the time.

The Tibetan resistance also created an awkward situation for the Dalai Lama. The exiled Tibetan leader owed his life to the Chushi Gangdruk warriors, but he was also trying to court the favor of the Indian government to secure a home for his exiled nation. For his part, Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru was reluctant to support Tibet in a way that might further antagonize China.

But the political calculus for both the U.S. and India changed on Oct. 22, 1962, when China attacked India along the Himalayan frontier. India scrambled to mount a military response as 25,000 PLA troops invaded over the Thang La Ridge. Nehru’s longstanding efforts to downplay the Tibetan situation to appease Beijing were exposed as misleading, and he faced scathing criticism at home.

Tsering Tunduk, an Establishment 22 veteran, at his home on Pangong Lake. Photo by Nolan Peterson/Coffee or Die.
Humiliated, Nehru asked U.S. President John F. Kennedy for help in standing up an all-Tibetan mountain warfare unit.

Named Establishment 22, this crack outfit tapped into the CIA’s existing recruiting and training networks for the Chushi Gangdruk. The original purpose of Establishment 22 was to use the Tibetans’ fighting prowess, which they’d proved against Chinese occupiers in Tibet, as well as their genetic ability to physically perform at high altitude to wage a guerrilla war against China in the Himalayas.

Initially, the CIA provided much of Establishment 22’s weapons and training. But the 1962 Sino-Indian War cooled before the secret unit could be trained and fielded. India, however, recognized the combat potential of Establishment 22 and kept it active.

The unit deployed to combat for the first time in East Pakistan — in hot and humid lowland conditions — in 1971 as part of Operation Mountain Eagle, and later fought Pakistani troops in the Himalayas, including the 1986 battle on Siachen Glacier, in which 17 Tibetans died. Establishment 22, however, never officially faced Chinese soldiers in combat.

Many Tibetan refugees escaped from China across the Himalayas. Photo by Nolan Peterson/Coffee or Die.
The U.S. opposed Establishment 22’s operations against Pakistan. But in 1975, the CIA rekindled its support for the all-Tibetan unit, sending two airborne advisers to train the Tibetans in high-altitude parachute jumps, using drop zones in Ladakh.

The use of Tibetans in operations against Pakistan was also controversial among the Tibetan exile community living in India. But the Tibetan government in exile in Dharamshala, India — home of the Dalai Lama — ultimately supported the move out of deference to their Indian hosts. India later tagged Establishment 22 for counterterrorism operations.

Based in Chakrata, Uttarakhand, the unit continues to serve along India’s Himalayan border and draws recruits from Tibetan refugees in India and Nepal.

India’s Ladakh region, the scene of a recent clash between Indian and Chinese border forces. Photo by Nolan Peterson/Coffee or Die.Bad Blood
The CIA continued training Tibetan freedom fighters in Colorado until 1964 — and support for Tibetan guerrillas based in the Mustang region of Nepal continued until President Richard Nixon’s normalization of relations with China in 1972. Yet even after CIA support dried up for the Chushi Gangdruk, approximately 10,000 Tibetan soldiers continued serving in India’s Establishment 22, now known as the Special Frontier Force.

In 1974, after bowing to Chinese pressure, the Nepalese military rooted the Chushi Gangdruk out of their mountain hideouts in Mustang, killing many fighters who had been trained by the CIA at Camp Hale. The Dalai Lama sent a taped message imploring the Mustang resistance to lay down their arms, spurring several fighters to commit suicide.

Despite the overwhelming odds against them, Tibet’s guerrilla fighters fought fiercely, suffering heavy casualties as they faced China’s modern military. The CIA’s Tibetan operation ultimately failed to make a large-scale impact on the Chinese occupation, and many of the CIA-trained Tibetan fighters were killed in combat or captured.

Buddhist monks in McLeod Ganj, India — the Dalai Lama’s home in exile. Photo by Nolan Peterson/Coffee or Die.
But the intelligence the Tibetan fighters gathered was sometimes of great value to the United States. A raid on a Chinese convoy in 1961, for example, killed a Chinese regimental commander and provided the CIA with what it later referred to as the “bible” on Chinese military intelligence.

After years of relative calm, tensions between China and India over their Himalayan frontier began to mount again in 2013, spiking near their shared Himalayan border with Bhutan in 2017. Those persistent hostilities inflamed again in May after reports of fistfights between Chinese and Indian border patrols at two different sites along the so-called Line of Actual Control, or LAC, which marks the two countries’ Himalayan frontier in a remote Indian region called Ladakh. Both sides have since massed military forces in the region, including artillery and troops, according to news reports.

Chinese news reports have said that India has been building up its infrastructure in the disputed Himalayan region, sparking Beijing’s legitimate reprisal. According to New Delhi, on the other hand, Beijing has been building up its troops in the Galwan River area in the Ladakh region in a bid to redraw the border map — thereby upheaving a de facto military stalemate that has held, more or less, since the two countries fought their brief Himalayan war in 1962.

Chinese units have also claimed territory near Pangong Tso, a high-altitude lake that marks part of the Himalayan frontier between India and China. Both sides have overlapping claims on the lake. According to Indian government figures, Pangong Lake saw more Chinese transgressions between 2015 and 2019 than any other point along the border.

Indian and Chinese forces have competing claims over Pangong Lake. Photo by Nolan Peterson/Coffee or Die.
“The good news is, the current crisis in Ladakh bears some resemblance to these prior standoffs, all of which were peacefully resolved. The bad news is, they also differ in some important and concerning ways, with mounting evidence to suggest the [line of actual control] is entering a new, more volatile chapter,” said Jeff Smith, a research fellow at The Heritage Foundation’s Asian Studies Center.

However, Smith added that Chinese incursions into India’s Himalayan Ladakh region have become more frequent and now comprise areas that weren’t previously contested.

“In aggregate, these trends suggest LAC standoffs are growing more hostile, more frequent, longer in duration, and are receiving more media coverage and international attention, potentially restricting both sides’ room for maneuver,” Smith said.

According to some, last week’s deadly clash between Indian and Chinese forces underscored that, once again, the U.S. has the chance to act as a peripheral power broker on India’s behalf.

“The first deadly border clash since the mid-1970s shows just how fraught relations between the world’s two most populous countries are becoming,” Stavridis, the former supreme allied commander of NATO, wrote in last week’s editorial for Bloomberg. “And while the geopolitical dangers are obvious and severe, the crisis also presents the U.S. with an opportunity to forge the strong relationship with India it has desired for more than two decades.”

 

[WARREN SS]

I’ll believe that when I see it. Till now I have not seen anything different with regards to the Chinese than what has been going on over the years.

You And My Perspective are irrelevant here.Stakes are higher Less Space To make move

 

[Godhimself]

Suno iss harami ko

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Suno iss harami ko

Two faced mongrels talking de- escalation while building up forces.

 

[here2where]

View attachment 51264

The front page of the Times of India from July 1962 reports on the Chinese push into the Galwan valley and India's determination to hold to the area. Three months later China attacked India and annexed Aksai Chin.

So was its Galwan Valley foray then a feint to draw our attention away, while its real target lay elsewhere?

Is there a lesson from history for the present?

 

[WARREN SS]

Suno iss harami ko

Tell This XI the Pooh