India-China Border conflict

[Tactical Doge]

Even with the blessings of WHO, Sinovav is getting trashed left right and centre
worldwide


Meanwhile a middle finger to WHO

 

[mist_consecutive]

First off I'd like to say that although I have been following defence matters (as an "enthusiast") for many years now, but it wasn’t until 2020 that I realised that a lot of theories that was often repeated on the interwebs as incontrovertible truths was a load of horseshit fuelled by a lack of knowledge, absence of critical thinking and and zero self introspection. Since then I have become more careful, I (try to) differentiate between useful information, insightful analysis vs hot takes and BS talking points. Also never "hand wave" off any scenarios. I guess this is just part of learning.
Now coming back to topic, if you look at the original (twitter) thread, a big deal is seeming being made of the pact that we have ~11-12 divisions of troops against China, but the Tibet TC has only x amount of forces. Er... why is that a problem? the PLA can pull in as many any ground forces assets from its other TCs as it needs to get the job done. After all China does not face a threat from the ground from any other direction. Only issue is these units need to be trained to operate effectively in this region, which is something they have been actually doing since this year at least.
And coming to the tanks part - although that's what is highlighted in the propaganda videos (actually they show more SP artillery, MBRL, mobile gun platforms, IFVs, light tanks than outright MBTs), does not mean they don’t have enough infantry, they do and they will bring in as many as they need. Also even if they have a mechanised heavy force does not mean that the PLA commander will simply go - "Oh look at those tall mountains, tanks no run here, I give up!" - He will plan the fight such that his strengths are utilised to the max and our weaknesses are exploited. Also the ironic thing about the "they will use tanks in THIS terrain? He" pic is that it shows eastern Arunachal where our connectivity is shit compared to what the PLA have on the other side. In some places the Chinese drive up the almost to the top of the ridge lines in their 4x4, IFVs etc. while we have to hump our way on foot for dozens of miles to reach the same spots.
And just to clarify I don’t actually believe PLA MBTs will stream down the Chumbi valley in their hundreds and cutoff the chicken's neck (its practically very difficult to do for various reasons), but they will apply as much pressure as they can in the sector because they know this is a nightmare scenario for us and use it to tie down our forces. And we cannot discount the possibility they they will user Armour or mechanised forces to do this, to the extent the terrain and tactics allow.

Okay, I am not sure what you are trying to conclude.

There are 4 levels of "Armchair Defence Experts" -

1. Level 1 (Amateur):-
   • Thinks chicken neck is vulnerable (because it looks narrow)
   • Considers USA & NATO equipment best and Russian & Chinese weapons junk and subpar.
   • Watches Reuters, BBC and other woke leftist news channels to form opinions on geopolitical situations.
     
2. Level 2 (Learning):-
   • Searches Wikipedia to learn more about defence. Thinks the equipment numbers on Wikipedia are correct and debates how X country has only Y equipment.
   • Compares missiles and aircraft on a single parameter, X > Y because X has more range.
   • Considers tweets and personal blogs as sources of truth and is easily swayed.
     
3. Level 3 (Intermediate):-
   • Digs more into technology and tries to understand core concepts of warfare.
   • Leaves fanboyish claims and opinions (e.g., like BrahMos is the best cruise missile).
   • Realises most information on the internet is actually heavily manipulated.
     
4. Level 4 (Nirvana):-
   • Does his own analysis and use open-source information. Scrutinizes propaganda.
   • Realises X > Y has no basis and real-life is highly circumstantial and random variables like weather play a greater role than expected.
   • Realises that real battle experience, both for men and equipment has greater importance than both quality and quantity of them.

========================================================================


The above is just a rant, I see a lot of people here and on other forums every day climbing the ladder.

Now coming back to the topic. Continuing in next post...

 

[Haldilal]

Okay, I am not sure what you are trying to conclude.

There are 4 levels of "Armchair Defence Experts" -

1. Level 1 (Amateur):-
   • Thinks chicken neck is vulnerable (because it looks narrow)
   • Considers USA & NATO equipment best and Russian & Chinese weapons junk and subpar.
   • Watches Reuters, BBC and other woke leftist news channels to form opinions on geopolitical situations.
2. Level 2 (Learning):-
   • Searches Wikipedia to learn more about defence. Thinks the equipment numbers on Wikipedia are correct and debates how X country has only Y equipment.
   • Compares missiles and aircraft on a single parameter, X > Y because X has more range.
   • Considers tweets and personal blogs as sources of truth and is easily swayed.
3. Level 3 (Intermediate):-
   • Digs more into technology and tries to understand core concepts of warfare.
   • Leaves fanboyish claims and opinions (e.g., like BrahMos is the best cruise missile).
   • Realises most information on the internet is actually heavily manipulated.
4. Level 4 (Nirvana):-
   • Does his own analysis and use open-source information. Scrutinizes propaganda.
   • Realises X > Y has no basis and real-life is highly circumstantial and random variables like weather play a greater role than expected.
   • Realises that real battle experience, both for men and equipment has greater importance than both quality and quantity of them.

========================================================================


The above is just a rant, I see a lot of people here and on other forums every day climbing the ladder.

Now coming back to the topic. Continuing in next post...

Ya'll Nibbiars Brahmos is the best Missile.

 

[BabaKhalbali]

Chinese Village in Arunachal Pradesh: Village in area under China’s ‘adverse occupation’ since 1959, can’t do much; Official | India News - Times of India

India News: The Indian security establishment on Tuesday sought to downplay the festering controversy over China’s construction of a new village on the disputed

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

 

[Haldilal]

Chinese Village in Arunachal Pradesh: Village in area under China’s ‘adverse occupation’ since 1959, can’t do much; Official | India News - Times of India

India News: The Indian security establishment on Tuesday sought to downplay the festering controversy over China’s construction of a new village on the disputed

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Ya'll Nibbiars The Mleechas occupation. There is a famous poem in Marathi calling The Mleechas Invaders, Inhuman, Thieves, Barbarians.

 

[mokoman]

Okay, I am not sure what you are trying to conclude.

There are 4 levels of "Armchair Defence Experts" -

1. Level 1 (Amateur):-
   • Thinks chicken neck is vulnerable (because it looks narrow)
   • Considers USA & NATO equipment best and Russian & Chinese weapons junk and subpar.
   • Watches Reuters, BBC and other woke leftist news channels to form opinions on geopolitical situations.
2. Level 2 (Learning):-
   • Searches Wikipedia to learn more about defence. Thinks the equipment numbers on Wikipedia are correct and debates how X country has only Y equipment.
   • Compares missiles and aircraft on a single parameter, X > Y because X has more range.
   • Considers tweets and personal blogs as sources of truth and is easily swayed.
3. Level 3 (Intermediate):-
   • Digs more into technology and tries to understand core concepts of warfare.
   • Leaves fanboyish claims and opinions (e.g., like BrahMos is the best cruise missile).
   • Realises most information on the internet is actually heavily manipulated.
4. Level 4 (Nirvana):-
   • Does his own analysis and use open-source information. Scrutinizes propaganda.
   • Realises X > Y has no basis and real-life is highly circumstantial and random variables like weather play a greater role than expected.
   • Realises that real battle experience, both for men and equipment has greater importance than both quality and quantity of them.

========================================================================


The above is just a rant, I see a lot of people here and on other forums every day climbing the ladder.

Now coming back to the topic. Continuing in next post...

Leaves fanboyish claims and opinions (e.g., like BrahMos is the best cruise missile)

BAN HIM !!

BAN HIM !!

Will verify by evening, but 99% sure this is false news.

Other members don't fall for cheap Chinese propaganda.

bruh fuckers have been posting pics from around pangong tso . even F4 peaks.

you can see their sangar observation post in the left side in background


entirely possible they occupied a left over position from last year , took pic then left.

i know they did that once in F4 , they put up a tent , took pic , then left , tent wasnt visible in recent images.

sucks we dont post any pics like this.

 

[doreamon]

Ya'll Nibbiars Brahmos is the best Missile.

In war not 1 but a volley of missiles ll be fired on a naval formation . In a theoretical study, 16 ripple fired BrahMos missiles can take out US Navy’s most advanced Arleigh Burke class destroyer .

 

[Covfefe]

In war not 1 but a volley of missiles ll be fired on a naval formation . In a theoretical study, 16 ripple fired BrahMos missiles can take out US Navy’s most advanced Arleigh Burke class destroyer .

The problem, I feel and I don't know anything about naval warfare, is that there are only 16 to lob while the other guy typically has more.Brahmos's invincibility is a dangerous bet as you never know the exact capability of the other guy's defence mechanisms. When we are fielding 10-11 odd destroyers shouldn't they have some overwhelming advantage over the adversary?

 

[Love Charger]

The problem, I feel and I don't know anything about naval warfare, is that there are only 16 to lob while the other guy typically has more.Brahmos's invincibility is a dangerous bet as you never know the exact capability of the other guy's defence mechanisms. When we are fielding 10-11 odd destroyers shouldn't they have some overwhelming advantage over the adversary?

Tell this to naval designers , look at chinese they have so many vls systems

 

[doreamon]

The problem, I feel and I don't know anything about naval warfare, is that there are only 16 to lob while the other guy typically has more.Brahmos's invincibility is a dangerous bet as you never know the exact capability of the other guy's defence mechanisms. When we are fielding 10-11 odd destroyers shouldn't they have some overwhelming advantage over the adversary?

Naval battle between indo china wont be naval vs naval . For the simple reason that war ll be fought in our region i.e indian ocean . There is a tri service command in A&N to lunch missiles , fighter jets .. there are airforce base in south India . We lack in naval capability . To counter it disruptive tech like agni 1p can be deployed in multiple numbers for the time being .

 

[Knowitall]

Ya'll Nibbiars now what this?.

I remember @mokoman posting similar pics recently.

Probably a small party of 5-6 guys trekked up the mountain took a few photos and returned the next day.

Even after disengagement and the creation of buffer zone the chinese did return to F4 just to have a photo session before leaving again.

This account states that they have created a outpost there so it should visible in sat data.

Anyways India never occupied black top in the first place rather we occupied the adjacent heights thus nullifying the advantage of blacktop for the chinese.

 

[thefewthefearless]

Okay, I am not sure what you are trying to conclude.

There are 4 levels of "Armchair Defence Experts" -

1. Level 1 (Amateur):-
   • Thinks chicken neck is vulnerable (because it looks narrow)
   • Considers USA & NATO equipment best and Russian & Chinese weapons junk and subpar.
   • Watches Reuters, BBC and other woke leftist news channels to form opinions on geopolitical situations.
2. Level 2 (Learning):-
   • Searches Wikipedia to learn more about defence. Thinks the equipment numbers on Wikipedia are correct and debates how X country has only Y equipment.
   • Compares missiles and aircraft on a single parameter, X > Y because X has more range.
   • Considers tweets and personal blogs as sources of truth and is easily swayed.
3. Level 3 (Intermediate):-
   • Digs more into technology and tries to understand core concepts of warfare.
   • Leaves fanboyish claims and opinions (e.g., like BrahMos is the best cruise missile).
   • Realises most information on the internet is actually heavily manipulated.
4. Level 4 (Nirvana):-
   • Does his own analysis and use open-source information. Scrutinizes propaganda.
   • Realises X > Y has no basis and real-life is highly circumstantial and random variables like weather play a greater role than expected.
   • Realises that real battle experience, both for men and equipment has greater importance than both quality and quantity of them.

========================================================================


The above is just a rant, I see a lot of people here and on other forums every day climbing the ladder.

Now coming back to the topic. Continuing in next post...

>2 grade defence experts should keep their knowledge up their ass & keep shut since it doesn't help 2 fucks in narrative building. The more nirvanas we have the more we will be crushed to our knees psychologically .

 

[mist_consecutive]

Now coming back to topic, if you look at the original (twitter) thread, a big deal is seeming being made of the pact that we have ~11-12 divisions of troops against China, but the Tibet TC has only x amount of forces. Er... why is that a problem? the PLA can pull in as many any ground forces assets from its other TCs as it needs to get the job done. After all China does not face a threat from the ground from any other direction. Only issue is these units need to be trained to operate effectively in this region, which is something they have been actually doing since this year at least.

So now since we are debating warfare on a country-level basis, not at the local theatre level as we normally do, let's take it to complete realistic scenarios. All bets and restrictions are off.

• First, China cannot move its majority (>70%) of troops to Tibet. The reason is simple, lack of facilities, especially in winter. Same reason we cannot move the majority of our troops in barren harsh terrain like Ladakh. They can replenish/rotate them, yes but move all of them at once. If they want to do it, they will need at least 1-2 years more to make such infrastructure.
  
  
• Second, let's say China moves the majority of troops to Tibet and attacks us. What are the implications at the geopolitical level?
  • The first thing that will happen is the Indian Navy + NATO Navy blockading China. Even with war reserves, I don't expect they will last more than 1 month of intense fighting and sustaining their very long supply lines in Tibet.
    
    
  • America + NATO + Gulf countries will at least help us in containing Pakistan. Why? A strong (but not very strong) India balances China. India getting invaded and decimated tips the balance of power towards the Chinese.

And coming to the tanks part - although that's what is highlighted in the propaganda videos (actually they show more SP artillery, MBRL, mobile gun platforms, IFVs, light tanks than outright MBTs), does not mean they don’t have enough infantry, they do and they will bring in as many as they need. Also even if they have a mechanised heavy force does not mean that the PLA commander will simply go - "Oh look at those tall mountains, tanks no run here, I give up!" - He will plan the fight such that his strengths are utilised to the max and our weaknesses are exploited. Also the ironic thing about the "they will use tanks in THIS terrain? He" pic is that it shows eastern Arunachal where our connectivity is shit compared to what the PLA have on the other side. In some places the Chinese drive up the almost to the top of the ridge lines in their 4x4, IFVs etc. while we have to hump our way on foot for dozens of miles to reach the same spots.
And just to clarify I don’t actually believe PLA MBTs will stream down the Chumbi valley in their hundreds and cutoff the chicken's neck (its practically very difficult to do for various reasons), but they will apply as much pressure as they can in the sector because they know this is a nightmare scenario for us and use it to tie down our forces. And we cannot discount the possibility they they will user Armour or mechanised forces to do this, to the extent the terrain and tactics allow.

Yes, surely they will bring enough infantry. I think the discussion was on China showing tank forces opposite Tawang and we ridiculed them for using tanks in hilly terrain.

But,

I think the knight-in-the-shining-armour PLA has got many defence analysts blinded. PLA advertises itself as such a modern force that people with less familiarity with that ground situation are just in awe of its illusion of power.

For a simple example, PLA advertised itself as an autonomous, network-centric and technologically advanced force, versus us, whose soldiers trek on feet (versus their expensive SUVs), carry equipment on mule (versus advanced autonomous drones !), and live in kerosene-heated tents (versus their solar-powered attilas).

Seems like we stand no chance! Any person will mock us, weak & poor India trying to challenge mighty China!

And that, my friend, is exactly the illusion China is selling you, and many members here, including you and @Maharaj skandgupta, and many others, has fallen very deeply.

 

[Covfefe]

So now since we are debating warfare on a country-level basis, not at the local theatre level as we normally do, let's take it to complete realistic scenarios. All bets and restrictions are off.

• First, China cannot move its majority (>70%) of troops to Tibet. The reason is simple, lack of facilities, especially in winter. Same reason we cannot move the majority of our troops in barren harsh terrain like Ladakh. They can replenish/rotate them, yes but move all of them at once. If they want to do it, they will need at least 1-2 years more to make such infrastructure.
  
  
• Second, let's say China moves the majority of troops to Tibet and attacks us. What are the implications at the geopolitical level?
  • The first thing that will happen is the Indian Navy + NATO Navy blockading China. Even with war reserves, I don't expect they will last more than 1 month of intense fighting and sustaining their very long supply lines in Tibet.
    
    
  • America + NATO + Gulf countries will at least help us in containing Pakistan. Why? A strong (but not very strong) India balances China. India getting invaded and decimated tips the balance of power towards the Chinese.

Yes, surely they will bring enough infantry. I think the discussion was on China showing tank forces opposite Tawang and we ridiculed them for using tanks in hilly terrain.

But,

I think the knight-in-the-shining-armour PLA has got many defence analysts blinded. PLA advertises itself as such a modern force that people with less familiarity with that ground situation are just in awe of its illusion of power.

For a simple example, PLA advertised itself as an autonomous, network-centric and technologically advanced force, versus us, whose soldiers trek on feet (versus their expensive SUVs), carry equipment on mule (versus advanced autonomous drones !), and live in kerosene-heated tents (versus their solar-powered attilas).

Seems like we stand no chance! Any person will mock us, weak & poor India trying to challenge mighty China!

And that, my friend, is exactly the illusion China is selling you, and many members here, including you and @Maharaj skandgupta, and many others, has fallen very deeply.

Ohh, @Maharaj skandgupta falls, he falls really deep. It takes a Christopher Nolan and some 12-14 hours off the forum to return him to this dimension.

 

[Love Charger]

Ohh, @Maharaj skandgupta falls, he falls really deep. It takes a Christopher Nolan and some 12-14 hours off the forum to return him to this dimension.

Y'all nibbiars , just like yesterday .

 

[Covfefe]

Y'all nibbiars , just like yesterday .

Just like everyday

 

[mokoman]

Ya lll nibbiars are arguing over 5th gen jets , warships , tanks , artys .

Chinese will not use any of that.

for reasons @mist_consecutive explained , they dont have the balls for a proper war.


what they __WILL__ do is another dharna . just like they are doing in demchok .

how many jets / tanks did they use to take over F4 , the valley in demchok , PP17A , PP15 ??

there are parts of AP with no roads near LAC , chinese will cross over there in large numbers.

it will be another galwan style 200+ fist fight.

 

[Jimih]

HH Dalai Lama

 

[Jimih]

SHAA

 

[Jimih]

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