India-China Border conflict

[Tactical Doge]

Yeah I mean they are better, but that's only if they exist for us. They don't right now, although the Chinese one looks really really cheap, like it's almost a toy.

We still haven't adopted it as standard issue so it's back to square one

That's what I intended to say in my original post

TLDR We have everything available locally to outclass the Chinki soldier a decade ahead than them

 

[MikeTheInfantryman]

That's what I intended to say in my original post

TLDR We have everything available locally to outclass the Chinki soldier a decade ahead than them

Well right now, the only thing that's blocking modernisation of the Infantry is just a mental one. Pretty sure it's only going to take a bit of convincing or an incident which prompts the brass to modernize en masse.

 

[Tactical Doge]

Well right now, the only thing that's blocking modernisation of the Infantry is just a mental one. Pretty sure it's only going to take a bit of convincing or an incident which prompts the brass to modernize en masse.

I agree with @Kumaoni on that one
Genrol need rude wake up call

 

[MikeTheInfantryman]

I agree with @Kumaoni on that one
Genrol need rude wake up call

I mean seeing as how our current COAS is from an engineer background, I'm not expecting anything anytime soon for now.

But someone else has a problem with the entire officer corps so there's that. Well new gen officers are going up the ladder slowly so here's to hoping it comes sooner rather than never

 

[jai jaganath]

Thermal sights can act as single tube NVDs, which I've seen some of the grunts using it as that. It's basically almost the same as the PLA NVG, which is also a single tube NVG.

Like I said, in a standard Infantry platoon, platoon commander and section leaders have NVGs and some grunts in a section get thermal sights. Probably a jugaad stuff but some of these sights, like I said before, are used as NVGs. So yeah night fighting capability exists my guy. It's just that not everyone gets the benefit of night vision. Limited NVGs across an Infantry Company.


I'm not talking about their SOF, because some of the dual tube NVGs are privately purchased by some of their troops, although the dual tube NVGs are slowly getting standardized. Slowly, so it's going to take time.


Red dot sights in a battle rifle is indeed weird, but with a magnifier, it's pretty manageable. An acog or sight that's something like that is the perfect fit for a rifle like the SiG, but some sight is better than just iron sights.


Equipment does not affect training to the extent that the soldier will be helpless when they get new gear. SOPs and tactics exist already for the units for night fighting with the limited NVG arsenal. Since section leaders and platoon commanders already have NVGs, the rest of the section getting an NVG isn't going to change the tactics that much, except making it bit better and the section more capable.



Most Ukrainians shouldn't be able to use the new plate carriers and battle belts since lots of them are conscripts and they only recently modernised thejr gear right before the war. So again tactics get only better with new equipment with few tweaks, not like tactics change completely because you get new equipment.

No bro thermal sights can never be a replacement of true night fighting capabilities even monotubes doesn’t provide night fighting capabilities
First time I am hearing platoon commanders and section leaders having nvg
What I have seen through videos or pics or read none of the infantry possess nvg baring ghataks not even monotubes and monotubes doesn't provide night fighting capabilities at all
Dual tubes in PLA SOF I'd getting standardized but on other hand except marcos no one has experienced dual tubes
But as u said let's keep SOF separate
Acog is still acceptable on sigs and in few cases we have seen but recent pics mostly they have no sights or bel holo ones without magnifier
Our military doesn't have night fighting capabilities even in mechanized domain till 2021-22 forget infantry
So they haven't trained or made sop based on it so providing them during war is useless
Even our ifv doesn't possess night fighting capabilities

Yes Ukrainians started proper modernization post 2014 which is sufficient for troops to acclimatize and make sop moreover post 2014 they were exposed to lot of NATO tactics and sop
But again I am not following Ukraine so getting into much details will be difficult

 

[vidhwanshak]

• Now, regarding the Chinese releasing pics, they were not "exhibitied", or released "officially", or even surfaced on China's official media. They were random Weibo leaks (probably intentional), which surfaced a bit on Indian Twitter. GoI chose not to respond. I do not support this peaceful attitude, but I can understand their stance.

PLA probably organised a exhibition of what they recovered in galwan conflict. A photo surfaced with INSAS magazines, photo of sep gurbinder singh and his family members, ranks and insignia patches of the units involved.

Indian media, especially private media houses are massive idiots. Is the 40-odd kill claim released by Army? Nope, what official confirmation we have is, Lt. Gen. Joshi talking about our o/p above Galwan hills recording 60+ casualties being airlifted by the Chinese. From that, he makes an educated guess that around 30-35 Chinese might have perished. We did not verify them to be "dead".

This is where general Joshi went wrong. We have had reports from the day of the conflict that a chinese colonel, Indian colonel and 3 soldiers were KIA. Later, numbers kept rising after bodies were exchanged. India Today reported our side returned 16 bodies to them. (I am not talking about PoW). Instead of saying that we handed them this number of bodies, he went with "we observed 60 casualties being airlifted" and TASS report might be a good estimate for PLA KIAs.
Now, the same question was asked to COAS Narvane which he could have answered but he chose not to. He agreed on PLA hiding casualty and bodies being exchanged but he too didn't divulge the numbers.
Start from 20 : 00 min


BTW, this is a great interview.

May I ask why you think Armed Forces is not accountable, do not ask for accountability, or do not investigate their own lapses?

Armed forces are opaque (justifiably) to the outside civilian world, but that doesn't mean they are running a criminal racket with no accountability, no matter how it may seem from the outside.

Balakot Strike Blunder (Friendly fire) -> Investigated, court marshaled, and punished (dishonorably discharged).
Balakot short-comings (IFF/BVR/Comms. etc.) -> All fixed.

Accidental BrahMos Launch -> Investigated, court marshaled, and punished (dishonorably discharged).

Apart from this, we don't hear everything that happens in Armed Forces.

Yes, I think armed forces aren't accountable. You go and ask them why such a sudden spike in casulties in CI/CT ops , after soldiers die they think of using drones, they don't standardise, they budget is being returned despite the state of modernisation etc etc.....
When I say post Balakot Blunder, I am referring to IAF getting caught unprepared by PAF and Abhinanan's Mig 21 getting shot. I agree it has been fixed but don't you think that being caught unprepared was shameful ?
Accidental Brahmos launch => it was pretty based. I place it on the same level as that of Aug 2020. Also, IAF's conduct post this was acceptable. Rouge officers shouldn't be promoted.

 

[vidhwanshak]

For all the Randi Rona about the MM Naravane's remark -

People are taking his statement too literally and out of context, spinning their own theories and breaking their bangles.

First, his statement was in reinforcement for his topic of discussion - The importance of diplomacy over war, especially in the context of China & Pakistan.

But still, let's nitpick his statement a bit. He said - No one who fought 2-front war has ever won.

• What he means is fighting a 2-front war and winning on both fronts has not been achieved/observed till now. NOT that we will lose a 2-front war, or that we are unprepared for a 2-front war.
  
  
• If you guys has not been reading, our strategy for 2.5-front war plan has been to defeat Pakistan, and block/stalemate China on the Himalayas. In essence, we are offensive with Pakistan, and defensive with China.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

See, RR is an attitude few of you fancy. Learn to accept shortcomings, both of India as well as your own life, and forgive them. Look forward, and instead of crying, try to fix them.

Yes, we are all aware our armed forces are not prepared, our politicians are corrupt, and our industrial capacity is low, I know. But on the plus side, they all are improving, slowly, but surely. Choose to take the white pill.

Yes, agreed. We have to accept that we at the end aren't at that level to change things. Our RR means nothing to people who has the power to change things.
Black piling will only affect your mental state and this would cause you to even nitpick faults in good things.
From my next post onwards, no black piling.

 

[Tactical Doge]

No bro thermal sights can never be a replacement of true night fighting capabilities even monotubes doesn’t provide night fighting capabilities
First time I am hearing platoon commanders and section leaders having nvg
What I have seen through videos or pics or read none of the infantry possess nvg baring ghataks not even monotubes and monotubes doesn't provide night fighting capabilities at all
Dual tubes in PLA SOF I'd getting standardized but on other hand except marcos no one has experienced dual tubes
But as u said let's keep SOF separate
Acog is still acceptable on sigs and in few cases we have seen but recent pics mostly they have no sights or bel holo ones without magnifier
Our military doesn't have night fighting capabilities even in mechanized domain till 2021-22 forget infantry
So they haven't trained or made sop based on it so providing them during war is useless
Even our ifv doesn't possess night fighting capabilities

Yes Ukrainians started proper modernization post 2014 which is sufficient for troops to acclimatize and make sop moreover post 2014 they were exposed to lot of NATO tactics and sop
But again I am not following Ukraine so getting into much details will be difficult

Especially in close ranges, an I2 phosphorus tube NVG is used in conjunction with a LAM, say a PEQ-15, to aim, although meny collimator sights have Night vision compatible settings

You cannot do that with a TI

 

[MikeTheInfantryman]

No bro thermal sights can never be a replacement of true night fighting capabilities even monotubes doesn’t provide night fighting capabilities
First time I am hearing platoon commanders and section leaders having nvg
What I have seen through videos or pics or read none of the infantry possess nvg baring ghataks not even monotubes and monotubes doesn't provide night fighting capabilities at all
Dual tubes in PLA SOF I'd getting standardized but on other hand except marcos no one has experienced dual tubes
But as u said let's keep SOF separate
Acog is still acceptable on sigs and in few cases we have seen but recent pics mostly they have no sights or bel holo ones without magnifier
Our military doesn't have night fighting capabilities even in mechanized domain till 2021-22 forget infantry
So they haven't trained or made sop based on it so providing them during war is useless
Even our ifv doesn't possess night fighting capabilities

Yes Ukrainians started proper modernization post 2014 which is sufficient for troops to acclimatize and make sop moreover post 2014 they were exposed to lot of NATO tactics and sop
But again I am not following Ukraine so getting into much details will be difficult

I mean only PLA SOF is using dual tube NVGs, PLA Infantry units use single tube digital NVGs, so going by your logic, they don't have night fighting capabilities either

Where's the threat then other than that? Because the only major threat from the PLA Infantry is that, NVGs as standard issue for Infantry

 

[Azaad]

I mean only PLA SOF is using dual tube NVGs, PLA Infantry units use single tube digital NVGs, so going by your logic, they don't have night fighting capabilities either

Where's the threat then other than that? Because the only major threat from the PLA Infantry is that, NVGs as standard issue for Infantry

You guys keep talking about night fighting though admittedly infantry weapons & paraphernalia haven't engaged me much which is why I've not been abreast of developments in this field or tactics but is it even feasible at such heights.

For perspective I'm sure none of you were born in 1999 when the Kargil operations were undertaken. Yet without even one such device not only did the IA engage but also won against the PA in close quarter combat DURING NIGHT TIME RAIDS.

This isn't going to be a case of massed assaults across the LAC though there will be a bit of that as well but pitched battles mostly close quarter ones fought for supremacy of heights in day time. If your ISR is accurate you can actually predict whether there's going to be a night time raid on your sangar perched on such heights.

 

[jai jaganath]

I mean only PLA SOF is using dual tube NVGs, PLA Infantry units use single tube digital NVGs, so going by your logic, they don't have night fighting capabilities either

Where's the threat then other than that? Because the only major threat from the PLA Infantry is that, NVGs as standard issue for Infantry

Mate night fighting capability doesn't mean a guy running with NVGs on helmet it's basically each and every system incorporated with night fighting capabilities
Be it tanks ifv armored vehicles everything has to be able to fight at night
Soldier having nvg is basically smallest unit but it shows the intent of the military
We recently ordered night sights for tanks not sure its integrated or not forget ifv or Soldier or other equipments
Although monotubes don't provide true night fighting capabilities but their most of the equipments are equipped with night fighting capabilities
Forget that but atleast they ahve monotubes our infantry don't even have those it's only available with para sf and ghataks

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

 

[mist_consecutive]

Good to see IPMVs and M4 have been inducted in the Sikkim sector as well. Last we saw them in the Ladakh sector in small numbers.

Hope there are bigger orders in the pipeline and the manufacturers ramp up the production rate.

 

[MikeTheInfantryman]

You guys keep talking about night fighting though admittedly infantry weapons & paraphernalia haven't engaged me much which is why I've not been abreast of developments in this field or tactics but is it even feasible at such heights.

For perspective I'm sure none of you were born in 1999 when the Kargil operations were undertaken. Yet without even one such device not only did the IA engage but also won against the PA in close quarter combat DURING NIGHT TIME RAIDS.

This isn't going to be a case of massed assaults across the LAC though there will be a bit of that as well but pitched battles mostly close quarter ones fought for supremacy of heights in day time. If your ISR is accurate you can actually predict whether there's going to be a night time raid on your sangar perched on such heights.

To be fair, sonce we're a defensive force in a conflict with China, we don't really have to make deep attacks into PLA lines. Night fighting really doesn't affect much, since most of the fight will be long range firefights cus you're in the mountains. It's not even anything like what happens in the plains. Seeing as how PLA has a cheap digital NVGs, it's going to do dogshit in a firefight that's at most times is going to be at long ranges at 300-500m.


Again, even though they have NVGs, they are digital NVGs, that means there's going to be obvious lag, and that's going to be a shitty experience. Plus, I see zero, I say zero battery packs for the NVGs they are carrying. I don't know about how long that'll last but considering you'll be out for combat for quite a while, NVGs running out quickly isn't really good for them.

 

[MikeTheInfantryman]

Mate night fighting capability doesn't mean a guy running with NVGs on helmet it's basically each and every system incorporated with night fighting capabilities
Be it tanks ifv armored vehicles everything has to be able to fight at night
Soldier having nvg is basically smallest unit but it shows the intent of the military
We recently ordered night sights for tanks not sure its integrated or not forget ifv or Soldier or other equipments
Although monotubes don't provide true night fighting capabilities but their most of the equipments are equipped with night fighting capabilities
Forget that but atleast they ahve monotubes our infantry don't even have those it's only available with para sf and ghataks

Mate, what are you talking about? Tanks and IFVs work with Infantry units, they aren't integrated to Infantry units that their thermal/NVG sights are crucial in operations. Night vision exists in small numbers for our infantry and seeing as how you said there's an order for NVG sights for the tanks, there's going to be night vision for the tanks too now. That shows the intent of the military. Yeah sure there's not enough NVGs, but at least there's some and it's way better than nothing

Only Infantry and tanks in limited numbers are going to fight here. Most of the fighting witnessed will be by the Infantry of both sides, so not every one of their "night vision enabled" equipment comes to the front.


On the monotube part, you're seriously being a hypocrite.

"Monotubes doesn't provide night fighting capability at all"

Yeah, and worse, they have a digital NVG, which lags, and since it's cheap, it's not going to be really effective at all. And we're talking about mountain warfare here, where engagements will be at long distances. You can't see shite from that NVG. Apart from the terrain cluster and other climatic elements that sometimes make NVGs not upto their capability, and I'm talking about conventional NVGs.

 

[jai jaganath]

Mate, what are you talking about? Tanks and IFVs work with Infantry units, they aren't integrated to Infantry units that their thermal/NVG sights are crucial in operations. Night vision exists in small numbers for our infantry and seeing as how you said there's an order for NVG sights for the tanks, there's going to be night vision for the tanks too now. That shows the intent of the military. Yeah sure there's not enough NVGs, but at least there's some and it's way better than nothing

Only Infantry and tanks in limited numbers are going to fight here. Most of the fighting witnessed will be by the Infantry of both sides, so not every one of their "night vision enabled" equipment comes to the front.


On the monotube part, you're seriously being a hypocrite.

"Monotubes doesn't provide night fighting capability at all"

Yeah, and worse, they have a digital NVG, which lags, and since it's cheap, it's not going to be really effective at all. And we're talking about mountain warfare here, where engagements will be at long distances. You can't see shite from that NVG. Apart from the terrain cluster and other climatic elements that sometimes make NVGs not upto their capability, and I'm talking about conventional NVGs.

The recent order for tanks was in 2021-22 really after waking up due to galwan when many others pointed out way earlier but still no work and until now not sure of delivery
Night fighting is entirely a different domain for that whatever takes part in that domain has to be Night fighting capable
I never said mechanized units are into infantry units what I meant was when u fight a war during Night everything has to be compatible bcoz u are gonna use every useful factor
That's shows their intent, until now even ifv are not capable to fight at night
They have been never serious regarding the issue
Why I say intent is their has been specific investment in this domain coz for fighting at night u need different tactics and equipments based on it
Coming to other point what I said monotubes doesn't provide night fighting capabilities at all but atleast PLA troops have monotubes which we don't possess at all for infantry
Heck there are multiple literature and articles stating para sf not having night fighting capability these guys even now wait for morning to continue the operation imagine this happening in 21st century
Thats why I say monotubes don't provide necessary night fighting capabilities
If para sf doesn’t have night fighting capabilities even with monotubes which is also minimal imagine what a normal infantry unit will go through where they don't even have these useless monotubes
Something is better than nothing
Ig this isn't hypocrisy but context explaining

 

[MikeTheInfantryman]

The recent order for tanks was in 2021-22 really after waking up due to galwan when many others pointed out way earlier but still no work and until now not sure of delivery
Night fighting is entirely a different domain for that whatever takes part in that domain has to be Night fighting capable
I never said mechanized units are into infantry units what I meant was when u fight a war during Night everything has to be compatible bcoz u are gonna use every useful factor
That's shows their intent, until now even ifv are not capable to fight at night
They have been never serious regarding the issue
Why I say intent is their has been specific investment in this domain coz for fighting at night u need different tactics and equipments based on it
Coming to other point what I said monotubes doesn't provide night fighting capabilities at all but atleast PLA troops have monotubes which we don't possess at all for infantry
Heck there are multiple literature and articles stating para sf not having night fighting capability these guys even now wait for morning to continue the operation imagine this happening in 21st century
Thats why I say monotubes don't provide necessary night fighting capabilities
If para sf doesn’t have night fighting capabilities even with monotubes which is also minimal imagine what a normal infantry unit will go through where they don't even have these useless monotubes
Something is better than nothing
Ig this isn't hypocrisy but context explaining

Damn, can you share some sources regarding the para SF dilemma? Because honestly that's the first time I've ever heard that a SOF can't take night operations

Because it's contradictory to various citations of gallantry awards in which Para SF does have NVGs so yeah idk about that. It's mostly PVS-14s that I've seen so yeah


I've seen pics of Infantry units carrying night vision, so again maybe not in some pictures but in some they do carry NVGs so it's not like they don't exist at all in any Infantry unit. Infantry units does have NVGs in very limited numbers so yeah



Again why are we even talking about NVGs when the distances the firefight engagements will be at make the PLA's NVGs useless, besides the obvious terraain cluster that's going to be present (because digital NVGs aren't as smooth as conventional ones)

 

[jai jaganath]

Damn, can you share some sources regarding the para SF dilemma? Because honestly that's the first time I've ever heard that a SOF can't take night operations

Because it's contradictory to various citations of gallantry awards in which Para SF does have NVGs so yeah idk about that. It's mostly PVS-14s that I've seen so yeah


I've seen pics of Infantry units carrying night vision, so again maybe not in some pictures but in some they do carry NVGs so it's not like they don't exist at all in any Infantry unit. Infantry units does have NVGs in very limited numbers so yeah



Again why are we even talking about NVGs when the distances the firefight engagements will be at make the PLA's NVGs useless, besides the obvious terraain cluster that's going to be present (because digital NVGs aren't as smooth as conventional ones)

Mate it's u who is speaking completely unexpected things
It's first time some guy in forum claiming that our sf and infantry having night fighting capabilities
If u want to know regarding poor nfc of para sf pls visit previous sf thread which has been locked there has been deliberate discussion regarding it in both sf and infantry
Bcoz not interested in going into back old days now
U can search in forum
Moreover ig u may have come across katoch's articles and literature there it has been explained clearly regarding this
Even recently during 2021 encounter in poonch and Rajouri border the troops halted ops at night
PVS-14 only exists with para sf and ghataks that's what all pics suggests which it self is useless
Regarding conventional and digital I must say this entire thing is process of capability built up
Even chinese have made advanced nvg but till not in ops it seems for them integrating during war won't be difficult coz they have their night fighting domain and respective tactics and training in place so they can upgrade unlike ours where night fighting domain is not significant

 

[MikeTheInfantryman]

Mate it's u who is speaking completely unexpected things
It's first time some guy in forum claiming that our sf and infantry having night fighting capabilities
If u want to know regarding poor nfc of para sf pls visit previous sf thread which has been locked there has been deliberate discussion regarding it in both sf and infantry
Bcoz not interested in going into back old days now
U can search in forum
Moreover ig u may have come across katoch's articles and literature there it has been explained clearly regarding this
Even recently during 2021 encounter in poonch and Rajouri border the troops halted ops at night
PVS-14 only exists with para sf and ghataks that's what all pics suggests which it self is useless
Regarding conventional and digital I must say this entire thing is process of capability built up
Even chinese have made advanced nvg but till not in ops it seems for them integrating during war won't be difficult coz they have their night fighting domain and respective tactics and training in place so they can upgrade unlike ours where night fighting domain is not significant

Alright I never said we have full night fighting capability, only limited. Where do you think Ghatak plattons exist? In a freaking Infantry battalion, man. They're just specialised platoons.


Give me a source(s) where they've made advanced, non rip-off NVGs that they've produced or fielded. Because I haven't seen any, since the best they can come up is a gen 3 NVG. Also I still dont get how it affects training because although NVGs are an advantage to the foe, it's not significant and countermeasures exist. Lighting up a zone with flares and illumination rounds and enough concealment means you just made their night vision go to waste, no matter how good it is. Also, since a conflict with PLA will be in the mountains, lack of low light means even their best NVGs, which are still decades away from US NVGs are just wasted away. Ambushing PLA units at night with concealment and the fact that we have some form of night visions in Ghatak platoons mean we're not at a significant disadvantage either.


All the pics and stuff I've seen myself are bullshit, okay makes sense. Why are we even talking about NVGs in the first place?

 

[Kumaoni]

Alright I never said we have full night fighting capability, only limited. Where do you think Ghatak plattons exist? In a freaking Infantry battalion, man. They're just specialised platoons.


Give me a source(s) where they've made advanced, non rip-off NVGs that they've produced or fielded. Because I haven't seen any, since the best they can come up is a gen 3 NVG. Also I still dont get how it affects training because although NVGs are an advantage to the foe, it's not significant and countermeasures exist. Lighting up a zone with flares and illumination rounds and enough concealment means you just made their night vision go to waste, no matter how good it is. Also, since a conflict with PLA will be in the mountains, lack of low light means even their best NVGs, which are still decades away from US NVGs are just wasted away. Ambushing PLA units at night with concealment and the fact that we have some form of night visions in Ghatak platoons mean we're not at a significant disadvantage either.


All the pics and stuff I've seen myself are bullshit, okay makes sense. Why are we even talking about NVGs in the first place?

We are talking about PLA vs IA night capabilities. We need better NVG.