India-China Border conflict

[Joe Shearer]

sound interesting , but unless u draw a picture , no one here knows waht ur talking about.

That's all, huh? Just a picture showing how to beat the PLA, and how to take the offensive against them?

I suppose I can do that - for you - the next five minute break I get.

 

[mokoman]

That's all, huh? Just a picture showing how to beat the PLA, and how to take the offensive against them?

I suppose I can do that - for you - the next five minute break I get.

ur talking about capturing gar county ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

sound interesting , but unless u draw a picture , no one here knows waht ur talking about.

Just for starters, if these 'road-blocks' are put in, how many alternative routes do the PLA have to flow around? Second, what if we are as well-equipped for a battle of manouevre as they might be?
@mist_consecutive I'm giving the game away.

 

[Joe Shearer]

ur talking about capturing gar county ?

The last thing I think about is capturing land and killing my soldiers to hold on to it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hmm, although a lean and mean army is the future, let's look at it from a different viewpoint.



We can surely cut the extra flab, but we need to maintain numbers. Manpower is the biggest factor countries face when going to war. Yes, we can't have bhuka-nanga soldiers with just a rifle running around the battlefield, but if we are going to take China & Pakistan (eventually both of them at the same time), manpower will be crucial.
We cannot be shy of losses, especially since China can always produce more artillery, more aircraft, and more armored vehicles than we can, and they are likely to always maintain superiority over it.



? Explain ? Mountains are perfect defenses. We need to make the Himalayas a death pit for the Chinese, that need ruthless guerrilla warfare.



Numerical superiority is paramount in winning war, our appetite to throw soldiers at them will offset their advantage of equipment and technology to some extent. The sole reason we are still retaining Galwan valley is because on on 15th June night, our soldiers did not hesitate even a bit to charge into an enemy, superior in number, better equipped, and better positioned.



Will just point out, this is not true always. Afghanistan (with both Soviet and America), and Ukraine now is showing a different case point.

Just a sly hint.

Remind me about the Bailley Trail, and Thorat vs. Kumaramangalam war-gaming it, Thorat as China, K as India.

 

[mokoman]

Just for starters, if these 'road-blocks' are put in, how many alternative routes do the PLA have to flow around? Second, what if we are as well-equipped for a battle of manouevre as they might be?
@mist_consecutive I'm giving the game away.

block g219 section at Gar near demchok ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

block g219 section at Gar near demchok ?

View attachment 152731

Yes.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes.

I could expand on it, but tomorrow, if you don't mind.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Someone actually read my post.

First, let me welcome you to this forum. I have seen you posting on the Pakistani forum a lot, as I have been a long-time lurker there. Times when saner minds prevailed there.

I will suggest you stick around, this forum actually has quality material and fruitful discussions, if you engage correct members, and ignore trolls.

=====================================================

Back to the discussion....

We can dance around this 'How big is big?' till the cows come home, but when it comes to actual down to earth planning, my own outlook is that we don't need 28 divisions for Pakistan if we are being defensive, and we need more than 69 if we are to attack (these are raw numbers; the Lanchester numbers/ratios are admittedly different).

So, yes, we need manpower; the question is, how many? Until we put a figure to it, and justify it, saying that we NEED to maintain numbers is something like saying we need petrol or diesel to move our cars. Sure we do, but what's the issue? The issue is how many. By saying drastically reduce head-count, surely there was something in mind.

What I have been observing, is now China is completely into the anti-India game (it always was, but we realized it in 2020), and our offensive plans on Pakistan (read cold-start) are on halt, at least till China stops squatting on our borders. But yes, overall, there is no well-defined number for headcount.

If you are suggesting we maintain headcount, since we can't beat the PLA in equipment, we might as well give up before we start.

Can we beat PLA in equipment ? I don't think we can in the next 20 years at least. What remains, if we discount geopolitics ? Manpower, tactics and geography.

Mountains are anything but perfect defences. If we do not know what we are doing, they become death-traps where troops isolated on the heights watch helplessly as the enemy sweeps around them and cuts off their retreat, and their logistics back-up.

Well, good thing is our army is pretty well-versed in mountains and we know exactly what we are doing, at least better than Chinese. Logistics chokepoints are death-sentence for any army, anywhere, not only mountains. We have maintained one of the toughest supply lines in the world on Himalayas in Dras-Kargil sector using porters and mules.

What do you think happened in 62? We lost to mass attacks? If that is what you think happened, let me surrender straight away, and acknowledge that you are the strategic supremo.

We lost due to under-equipped, ill-supplied army lead by ineffective leaders. But it is also to be noted, we ran out of bullets to fire at the human-waves of PLA.

Apart from that, if you have anything to add, please do.

Just a sly hint.

Remind me about the Bailley Trail, and Thorat vs. Kumaramangalam war-gaming it, Thorat as China, K as India.

I am not aware, I have to read about it first.

 

[Joe Shearer]

First, let me welcome you to this forum. I have seen you posting on the Pakistani forum a lot, as I have been a long-time lurker there. Times when saner minds prevailed there.

I will suggest you stick around, this forum actually has quality material and fruitful discussions, if you engage correct members, and ignore trolls.

Thank you so much.

I didn't come here in the natural course of things. I came here hunting a head.

What I have been observing, is now China is completely into the anti-India game (it always was, but we realized it in 2020), and our offensive plans on Pakistan (read cold-start) are on halt, at least till China stops squatting on our borders. But yes, overall, there is no well-defined number for headcount.

Well, we can work on it. Doing the Pakistan-India ORBAT was a tough enough chore, but doable.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Can we beat PLA in equipment ? I don't think we can in the next 20 years at least. What remains, if we discount geopolitics ? Manpower, tactics and geography.

Let me argue my case! I'm ready to shut up if you aren't convinced.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well, good thing is our army is pretty well-versed in mountains and we know exactly what we are doing, at least better than Chinese. Logistics chokepoints are death-sentence for any army, anywhere, not only mountains. We have maintained one of the toughest supply lines in the world on Himalayas in Dras-Kargil sector using porters and mules.

My issue is that in this way, we have merely survived. What kind of a strategy is that? Also, we must look at the big picture, and it is bigger than most of us imagine at first sight. Sorry to sound mysterious, but it is a very down-to-earth big picture.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Don't want to elaborate on this now, but think of a division strong road-block between Lhasa and Gar County, in Nyoma Prefecture.
Think of another east of Lhasa.

I don't follow. We currently don't have such an expeditionary force. Our supply lines will be stretched too thin or will be nonexistent. If you are thinking of a para-dropped force, they will be at mercy of PLAAFs unless we are confident of maintaining air superiority over Tibet, which I don't see happening.

A more realistic scenario is this one,

A brigade-sized force at each of the mountain passes (red lines) blocking Chinese supply routes, our supply lines are strong, and we can maintain local air-superiority with some difficulty aswell.

 

[Joe Shearer]

We lost due to under-equipped, ill-supplied army lead by ineffective leaders. But it is also to be noted, we ran out of bullets to fire at the human-waves of PLA.

Apart from that, if you have anything to add, please do.

In fact, we were defeated by a brilliant war of manoeuvre. As in everything else, we can discuss this

I am not aware, I have to read about it first.

I can spoon-feed or you can take a little time and figure it out.

@mokoman
Are you good with maps?
Can you get into this conversation?

 

[Joe Shearer]

I don't follow. We currently don't have such an expeditionary force. Our supply lines will be stretched too thin or will be nonexistent. If you are thinking of a para-dropped force, they will be at mercy of PLAAFs unless we are confident of maintaining air superiority over Tibet, which I don't see happening.

A more realistic scenario is this one,

A brigade-sized force at each of the mountain passes (red lines) blocking Chinese supply routes, our supply lines are strong, and we can maintain local air-superiority with some difficulty aswell.

Quite clearly you have read your maps. Yes, it straightens out an awkward angle in our boundaries. I would still prefer to be attacking them on fundamentals.

 

[mokoman]

In fact, we were defeated by a brilliant war of manoeuvre. As in everything else, we can discuss this



I can spoon-feed or you can take a little time and figure it out.

@mokoman
Are you good with maps?
Can you get into this conversation?

sure , maps yes, military manoeuvre or strategy no .

best i can gather from your comment is to break the PLA into 2 by blocking g219 at gar .

best to just say what ur saying, LOL

 

[Joe Shearer]

sure , maps yes, military manoeuvre or strategy no .

best i can gather from your comment is to break the PLA into 2 by blocking g219 at gar .

best to just say what ur saying, LOL

Let us discuss it in a systematic way, not in flashes of brilliance. Tomorrow? Day after?

 

[Jimih]

block g219 section at Gar near demchok ?

View attachment 152731

Yeah it will put pressure on the east to west movement of troops and materials for the PLA.

If the logistics and movement of our troops can be managed there is a possibility to block it.

However Division wise it is still insufficient for this manouevre to take place.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yeah it will put pressure on the east to west movement of troops and materials for the PLA.

If the logistics and movement of our troops can be managed there is a possibility to block it.

However Division wise it is still insufficient for this manouevre to take place.

If you consider than the PA is only 25 or so strong, if you consider that only 1/3 that number is needed to defend against them, if you consider that we already have 39 divisions, if those facing the PA are 8 divisions, if there are 39 - 8 = 31 divisions at our disposal, would that be such a difference? Would it be insufficient?

 

[Joe Shearer]

If you consider than the PA is only 25 or so strong, if you consider that only 1/3 that number is needed to defend against them, if you consider that we already have 39 divisions, if those facing the PA are 8 divisions, if there are 39 - 8 = 31 divisions at our disposal, would that be such a difference? Would it be insufficient?

More over tomorrow/day after.