India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[ARVION]

Light tank comparison

Undertook a rudimentary analysis on the light #tank requirement basis data from the #IndianArmy RFI released in 2009.
Turns out the K21-105 & K21-120 tick more boxes than the Sprut SDM1 .
Moreover the K21 could be built at the @larsentoubro factory at #Hazira #Gujarat .

View attachment 53366

View attachment 53367

Did not consider Harimau due to Turkish content .
Similarly did not consider US MPF program vehicles as they're still in development.
Anders & CV90/120 due to 30+T weight restrictions .
That said the US MPF program offers two intriguing light tanks with the @BAESystemsInc M8 BUFORD & @GD_LandSystems Griffin 2.
Adding our numbers to the US requirement a run of 800 vehicles can be achieved reducing cost for both.

View attachment 53368

The K21-105/120 isn't air-droppable but brings a unique capability of a main gun that can have a 42° angle of fire . This allows for the tank to be used as indirect fire artillery support upto 15km distances . Very useful in mountain warfare.

View attachment 53369

Another area where both K21 versions score is the fact that they're much better armored than the Sprut .
Overall the K21-120 is a vehicle that outmatches the Sprut in firepower while being much better protected.
Add in the local production at L&T ,this tank has my vote.
Must add here that apart from the SPRUT SDM All other light tanks listed use either of the two plug & play solutions from Cockerill Defense . This turret & gun is now pretty much a @NATO standard that can fire all standard 105 & 120mm tank rounds from NATO countries.

View attachment 53370

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It must similarly be considered that further orders for the SPRUT SDM1 were rejected by #Russian forces after the induction of only 24 units & a new light airborne tank is under development based on the 2S42 LOTOS platform pictured here.

View attachment 53372

The Cockerill turrets themselves are modular & can be tweaked for everything from 4x4 armored cars like the @anandmahindra ASLV to the BMP-2 all with different armament details.
Could be made in India with a JV.



Can the Cockerill 105 or 120, with a few modifications, made compatible with the DRDO-Tata Kestrel hull as a quick and easy solution for getting a light tank or tank destroyer??

As mentioned above the same family of turrets also has a branch of light turrets for 4x4 Armor like the @TataMotors LAMV or the @MahindraRise ASLV .
Would help build commonality & reduce logistical constraints.

In trials by the #Korean military the #Ukraine developed Falarick gun launched ATGM of K21 105/120 has displayed a penetration of 550mm RHA post ERA at 4000mtr+ range . This analysis has led the Korean military to conclude the K21 can defeat all DPRK Armor.
Putting this here so it doesn't slip out of the thread .
Would add that the #IndianArmy in 2009 had specified a requirement for 300 light tanks 100 tracked & 200 8x8 wheeled with similar specifics.
The thread above focuses only on the tracked units.

As promised @bdun53 sir, please find a rudimentary analysis of some existing 8x8 wheeled 105/120mm #tank destroyers available . There are newer vehicles in development at the moment as well that have not yet entered service like the @RheinmetallAG Boxer FSV .


In the wheeled comparison as well the ROSOMAK WIEL uses the same CMI 3105-gun as most of the tracked competitors. This system has now been trialled and adopted by the Korean, Indonesian, Turkish , Singapore, Swedish militaries & is entering trials with British & US forces.

It would be safe to say that the 3105 & versions are a successful military weapon system that has been adopted by many militaries & can provide the IA with a readymade solution for an effective light tank that would be more effective than the Sprut .

Thread by @Aryanwarlord: Undertook a rudimentary analysis on the light #tank requirement basis data from the #IndianArmy RFI released in 2009. Turns out the K21-105…

Thread by @Aryanwarlord: Undertook a rudimentary analysis on the light #tank requirement basis data from the #IndianArmy RFI released in 2009 the K21-105 & K21-120 tick more boxes than the Sprut SDM1 . Moreover the K21 could be built at the @larsento…

threadreaderapp.com

Good article by you but the l & T is going for a vajra tank with drdo based on K 9 Chasie's, well it's not a light tank as you mentioned the various tank but more as a cross over as a between the Light MBT's and medium Weight's MBT's.

 

[lcafanboy]

Huawei KMB by Taiwan....

 

[Lancer]

Huawei KMB by Taiwan....

There's opportunity here.

 

[kaaleshwaar]

Huawei KMB by Taiwan....

China these days be like:

 

[ARVION]

I think we should get to knew the chinese tank's Gun's to knew how good our guns are to the chinese and I think our guns are better than the Chinese's.

ZPT-98 is an improvement over the standard gun that used on Type 96 that is derived from 2A46. It's manufacturing involves processes not found on any 2A46 like electroslag remelting to name just one that's been publicised in the past. Type 98 manufacturing uses a lot of techniques found in Rheinmetall guns but has longer caliber (barrel length), larger rounds, higher bore pressure, and higher muzzle velocity just compared to L44 120mm. Which is on paper a bit better than 2A46 already. Rheinmetall's L55 120mm improves on these specs but with a longer and heavier gun to control and spin around.

The decision to use 125mm is because at least in the past, Soviet and Chinese munitions were of lower quality and accuracy compared to NATO's. To make up for this, they decided to use a bigger caliber for increased kinetic energy (assuming same propellant between a Chinese 120mm and 125mm) and the ability to launch Soviet ATGM from the tank just so the range can match and in this case exceed that of NATO tanks with better rounds. Now everyone's got >125mm guns lined up in case they need to be adopted but for the moment, 120mm and 125mm apparently are still decent enough to not justify the huge change. Type 98 is nothing amazing at all but it is not a 2A46. The barrel length is also slightly longer.

It's possible 2A46M versions used on the latest T 90M already has made all these improvements and maxed out the performance of the design. T 14's 2A82 should be on another level of performance. Keep in mind that FCS and munitions do a lot more for the gun than the raw specs. Another factor we haven't considered is the lifespan of the barrel. It's possible the Type 98 sacrifices a bit more life for a more powerful shot to ensure penetration of heavy MBTs. Against softer targets of 40-50T ranges. But the quality of the gun's may be degraded's.

 

[scatterStorm]

View attachment 53265

If our's 7. 62 MM High Powered's Round's could destroy the Chinese's LAV's. We need to use AMR's or RPG's, better use them for MRAP's or the true armored's vehicle's.

These round look all good on a truck, but when they hit an actual person, I am dead sure, either there troop is going to fall down or run away because his comrades are falling. They lack the will to fight. Our men fight with these kind of shots whizzing around there body. I've seen videos of our troops counter firing the terrorist, I could hear the ricochet of a bullet hitting the windows panel and just past by the Jawan. I could feel the fear in that video, no imagine standing there and doing this.

Instant PTSD

 

[garg_bharat]

Procurement of light tanks at this point is totally wasteful. Army needs to order Tata Kestrel vehicles in large numbers, with 30mm turret and ATGMs. Terrain provides an ideal opportunity to employ these vehicles in Ladakh. Some can be built with imported 120mm turrets.

 

[fire starter]

 

[ARVION]

Procurement of light tanks at this point is totally wasteful. Army needs to order Tata Kestrel vehicles in large numbers, with 30mm turret and ATGMs. Terrain provides an ideal opportunity to employ these vehicles in Ladakh. Some can be built with imported 120mm turrets.

Better to go for some TOS 1 to fry the Chinese's and fast track the procument's if the FRCV's, FICV's and Take out's some Vijayanta's from the storage's.

 

[Bhadra]

Light tank comparison

Undertook a rudimentary analysis on the light #tank requirement basis data from the #IndianArmy RFI released in 2009.
Turns out the K21-105 & K21-120 tick more boxes than the Sprut SDM1 .
Moreover the K21 could be built at the @larsentoubro factory at #Hazira #Gujarat .

View attachment 53366

View attachment 53367

Did not consider Harimau due to Turkish content .
Similarly did not consider US MPF program vehicles as they're still in development.
Anders & CV90/120 due to 30+T weight restrictions .
That said the US MPF program offers two intriguing light tanks with the @BAESystemsInc M8 BUFORD & @GD_LandSystems Griffin 2.
Adding our numbers to the US requirement a run of 800 vehicles can be achieved reducing cost for both.

View attachment 53368

The K21-105/120 isn't air-droppable but brings a unique capability of a main gun that can have a 42° angle of fire . This allows for the tank to be used as indirect fire artillery support upto 15km distances . Very useful in mountain warfare.

View attachment 53369

Another area where both K21 versions score is the fact that they're much better armored than the Sprut .
Overall the K21-120 is a vehicle that outmatches the Sprut in firepower while being much better protected.
Add in the local production at L&T ,this tank has my vote.
Must add here that apart from the SPRUT SDM All other light tanks listed use either of the two plug & play solutions from Cockerill Defense . This turret & gun is now pretty much a @NATO standard that can fire all standard 105 & 120mm tank rounds from NATO countries.

View attachment 53370

View attachment 53371


It must similarly be considered that further orders for the SPRUT SDM1 were rejected by #Russian forces after the induction of only 24 units & a new light airborne tank is under development based on the 2S42 LOTOS platform pictured here.

View attachment 53372

The Cockerill turrets themselves are modular & can be tweaked for everything from 4x4 armored cars like the @anandmahindra ASLV to the BMP-2 all with different armament details.
Could be made in India with a JV.



Can the Cockerill 105 or 120, with a few modifications, made compatible with the DRDO-Tata Kestrel hull as a quick and easy solution for getting a light tank or tank destroyer??

As mentioned above the same family of turrets also has a branch of light turrets for 4x4 Armor like the @TataMotors LAMV or the @MahindraRise ASLV .
Would help build commonality & reduce logistical constraints.

In trials by the #Korean military the #Ukraine developed Falarick gun launched ATGM of K21 105/120 has displayed a penetration of 550mm RHA post ERA at 4000mtr+ range . This analysis has led the Korean military to conclude the K21 can defeat all DPRK Armor.
Putting this here so it doesn't slip out of the thread .
Would add that the #IndianArmy in 2009 had specified a requirement for 300 light tanks 100 tracked & 200 8x8 wheeled with similar specifics.
The thread above focuses only on the tracked units.

As promised @bdun53 sir, please find a rudimentary analysis of some existing 8x8 wheeled 105/120mm #tank destroyers available . There are newer vehicles in development at the moment as well that have not yet entered service like the @RheinmetallAG Boxer FSV .


In the wheeled comparison as well the ROSOMAK WIEL uses the same CMI 3105-gun as most of the tracked competitors. This system has now been trialled and adopted by the Korean, Indonesian, Turkish , Singapore, Swedish militaries & is entering trials with British & US forces.

It would be safe to say that the 3105 & versions are a successful military weapon system that has been adopted by many militaries & can provide the IA with a readymade solution for an effective light tank that would be more effective than the Sprut .

Thread by @Aryanwarlord: Undertook a rudimentary analysis on the light #tank requirement basis data from the #IndianArmy RFI released in 2009. Turns out the K21-105…

Thread by @Aryanwarlord: Undertook a rudimentary analysis on the light #tank requirement basis data from the #IndianArmy RFI released in 2009 the K21-105 & K21-120 tick more boxes than the Sprut SDM1 . Moreover the K21 could be built at the @larsento…

threadreaderapp.com

Thanks for the post I appreciate your efforts..

K21 is basically an IFV rather than a tank with a configuration of 3+9 . Its gun is also meant to be used mainly against heavy IFV.

When it comes to land warfare - a tank has to be an anti tank platforms rather than anything else. In most of air transported operation as also in amphibious operations or riverine terrain of Eastern Theater one only expects light anti tank environment rather than a line of tanks on the objective.. Our context is a tank against Chinese tanks that has good mobility and fire power.. Our reference is anti tank environment.

Indian requirement of air transportation will need to be seen against the carrying capacities of IL-76. C-139 and Globe master which around 40 - 45 tons. The Indian solution lies in improvement of road infrastructure rather than air trans-portability.

Similarly Indian solution to Tank problem lies not in changing the horse but making the existing horse run faster, We either make existing T-72 run faster or put is 39 ton Vijayant into operation with a 1000 - 1400 hp engines.. It can withstand and defeat any Chinese light or even Medium tanks.
Presently India has 1000hp engine in K-9 vajra as also in T-90 Bhishma. DRDO will be able to offer 1400hp Arjun engine and refit Vijayant.

We can increase our Mechanized Infantry ratio in the Mechanized content with Spike ER and Spike SR as also use mechanical mine layers in larger numbers.
One can imagined Galwan valley or Spangur Gap fully mined.. Let 14 Core have one engineer battalion each for each gap.
There is not much of Mechanized warfare there with pincers and envelopment or turning maneuvers . Chinese can be bottled up in limited avenues quite comfortably. One nedds to lay stress on Apaches. Rudra and Infantry in Anti tank roles. It is absolutely a nightmare for a mechanized column to assault a hill feature with coordinated anti tank defenses.

Let CDS and COAS not fall for that scare monger lobby which anyway does it at every opportunity.. The lobby that wrote day and night against MSC are now smelling blood to import tanks.

 

[HawkisRight]

There's opportunity here.

Piyush Goyal asks industry to setup semi-conductor fabrication plant soon in India

“We are mapping the entire land bank available for manufacturing…We need to have a fab coming to India quickly now. That is a missing piece,” Piyush Goyal said. He asked the industry to identify such units which can be moved to India from other countries where they are not viable, and look at...

m.economictimes.com

Indeed

 

[lcafanboy]

China these days be like:
View attachment 53373

There is a need for the world to unite and put China into quarantine for next 1000yrs. No one goes to China, chinkies not allowed to come out of China, no one invest in China, no one accepts Chinese investment and break away/free all Chinese acquired land like Tibet, Hong Kong, Xinjiang, South Mongolia, break all bi lateral ties, remove China from UN and other world bodies...

 

[ARVION]

Thanks for the post I appreciate your efforts..

K21 is basically an IFV rather than a tank with a configuration of 3+9 . Its gun is also meant to be used mainly against heavy IFV.

When it comes to land warfare - a tank has to be an anti tank platforms rather than anything else. In most of air transported operation as also in amphibious operations or riverine terrain of Eastern Theater one only expects light anti tank environment rather than a line of tanks on the objective.. Our context is a tank against Chinese tanks that has good mobility and fire power.. Our reference is anti tank environment.

Indian requirement of air transportation will nedd to be seen against the carrying capacities of IL-76. C-139 and Globe master which around 40 - 45 tons. The Indain solution lies in improvement of road infrastructure rather than air trans-portability.

Similarly Indian solution to Tank problem lies not in changing the horse but making the existing horse run faster, We either make existing T-72 run faster or put is 39 ton Vijayant into operation with a 1000 - 1400 hp engines.. It can withstand and defeat any Chinese light or even Medium tanks.

We can increase our Mechanized Infantry ratio in the Mechanized content with Spike ER and Spike SR as also use mechanical mine layers in larger numbers.
One can imagined Galwan valley or Spangur Gap fully mined.. Let 14 Core have one engineer battalion each for each gap.
There is not much of Mechanized warfare there with pincers and envelopment or turning maneuvers . Chinese can be bottled up in limited avenues quite comfortably. One nedds to lay stress on Apaches. Rudra and Infantry in Anti tank roles. It is absolutely a nightmare for a mechanized column to assault a hill feature with coordinated anti tank defenses.

Let CDS and COAS not fall for that scare monger lobby which anyway does it at every opportunity.. The lobby that wrote day and night against MSC are now smelling blood to import tanks

Well what about mounted Mortar or RCL's on a light armoured or heavy armoured vehicle's. Bhadra ji.

 

[scatterStorm]

View attachment 53287

When the Chinese's have deployede's their's ATGM's armour's, we are still strugglinge's with the NAMICA's NAG's missile's.

Tank expert folks could put a lot about why this would be a threat. All I can think of is that it will be moved along armored column to provide extra layered offensive punch. Unless we arty the shit out there forward thrust or use an ATGM on it like Hellfire.

 

[nick_indian]

I wish the map also showed the Chinese claim line also.

 

[cereal killer]

Totally agree but I think secrecy about Depsang means Chinese are definately in large numbers along with their mechanized infantry at a threatening distance from DBO. The picture will be more clear in coming months.

 

[Desi Aam]

More hoax than legend

Not a hoax, there have been videos on ytube showing these trains in the past and we have plenty of them.....

 

[ARVION]

Not a hoax, there have been videos on ytube showing these trains in the past and we have plenty of them.....

I think that is an old video but still worth it's. And many like this are on the there.

 

[Sanglamorre]

Has there been any official confirmation that we're looking for Light tanks or is this just rumors?

 

[ARVION]

Has there been any official confirmation that we're looking for Light tanks or is this just rumors?

No just plain rumour's. No official statment's. Or I am reading wrong's.