India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Put a RCL gun on this or anti tank missile..its good enough to take out light tanks and this is cost effective.

 

[Bhadra]

Good idea, but where are you going to get the manpower from to operate them? And training. Surely not from the RR battalions which would deplete their strength by a platoon.

That is no prolem..
81 Mors are authorised to RR battalions including manpower for that.. detaching 40 soldiers should not effect a RR battalion... including one Mortar qualified Infantry officer or one Artillery officer... all RR battalion has artillery ofiers posted with them..
All units that has artillery affiliation can utlise their gunners... they will be happy..
All RR battalions are supposed to hold training and first line ammunition..
Training - can be organised in two weeks ...

At formation level about six Mortar platoons can be brigaded under one artillery officer...

There is just no problems....

Imagine seven medium batteries (42 guns) mixed with sixty mortar and salvos of GRAD pounding Finger Five. Finger five will merge with Pengang Tso...

India must take advantage of their being at home..

 

[Bhadra]

A lot of RR units are along LC today with good use of 81 mm.

Do you mean all RR battalions are training their Mortar platoons for Ladakh... that would be fantastic..
Otherwise no one has ever seen RR firing mortars..

 

[Mikel]

Indian Navy carring out a massive naval combat exercise near the Andaman & Nicobar islands close to the Malacca strait. Several IN destroyers, frigates and submarines are taking part in the exercise. P-8I MPAs armed with Harpoon AShMs have also joined in.

 

[Hellfire]

What do you mean - RR on LC? Where ? on LC or along LC ??

RR units deployed at/along/on LC.

Grammatically, along is more correct as it denotes a position along a line. And since it is Line of Control, hence the usage of "Along".

But then you understood what I had posted and were merely being you.

Do you mean all RR battalions are training their Mortar platoons for Ladakh... that would be fantastic..
Otherwise no one has ever seen RR firing mortars..

RR units which have LC role today, have used their 81 mms effectively.

Just to name a few RR units at LC - 51 RR (MAHAR), 57 RR (RAJ RIF) (quite regularly uses its 81 mm and 84 mm CGs in Neelum Valley) , 45 RR (JAT), 56 RR (MARATHA LI), 36 RR (GARH RIF)

 

[ARVION]

Udi Baba... kaa bechat ho subeh subeh?

Gaai ka duddu?



Since they have a itch to push forward we have the advantage.

So IA can let them come in few kms with little "resistance" and then all of a sudden ending their "victory party" by cutting off leaving the Chini big convoys trapped... then IA can unleash Fire and Fury and do Shikaar of Chini midgets from the top of the hills or elsewhere with few shoulder fired RPG/MMG/Sniper etc or just push down some stones downhill. I hope Harinder Singh Ji is reading this post!

We can name the valley as Shikara-e-Chini to further humiliate them if 40-100 soldiers died were not enough. Also since they would be in our land we can play the victim card internationally of being attacked on our soil. Same like Kargil.

Nahi re baba, due to curfew cant open shop beyond 4 and due to this most customer come only in morning to do the basic purchase's.

 

[utubekhiladi]

Deescalation hogaya kya?

 

[ARVION]

Deescalation hogaya kya?

 

[utubekhiladi]

View attachment 53355

i am the meme master of this forum. stop taking my title away

 

[fire starter]

 

[fire starter]

What I said before we should help Myanmar to eliminate this MSS-ISI nexus like we did in north east.

 

[nick_indian]

There remains a logjam with PLA refusing to budge. Today's Indian Express carried a news article that the Depsang Plains, as per sources, have not come up for discussions.

That is .... nonsense. The obvious glare at Pangong Tso is the reason that the same remains in public glare.

The US' statement yesterday, wherein it was explicit that they will be willing to stand with "friends" is very significant. The recent force accretion in SCS and Indian posture along the LAC, are also indicative that the GoI has decided to let the diplomacy be used at all fronts before taking a call on deployment of forces to evict the Chinese from the points that they have unilaterally occupied, hitherto patrolled by either sides.

Are they still on our side of the LAC in Hotsprings or Gogra despite the retreat ?

 

[Mikesingh]

Indian Navy carring out a massive naval combat exercise near the Andaman & Nicobar islands close to the Malacca strait. Several IN destroyers, frigates and submarines are taking part in the exercise. P-8I MPAs armed with Harpoon AShMs have also joined in.

Show of some force near the Malacca Strait, but is that enough? We need to physically harass their commercial shipping near the Strait to the extent that they are forced to withdraw completely from Depsang and the 'no man's land' on Pangong Tso between Fingers 4 and 8 (respective claim lines). Otherwise these exercises are just muscle flexing with lack of any muscle to show!

 

[Mikesingh]

India's Unending Quest for Horses​

Army: How Red Tape Delayed the Procurement of Lightweight Tanks Until After Ladakh Faceoff

A handful of desultory indigenous attempts were initiated from the 1980s to locally develop a light tank, all regrettably stillborn.

thewire.in

View attachment 53339

Shouldn't Rajnath be made to wear camo dress while visiting forward areas? I think he should. He looks totally out of place as a defence minister wearing loose flappy salwar kameez visiting troops in an op area!! He could trip over himself in that terrain with RaGa then going berserk with his tweets followed by the inevitable political slugfest!!!

 

[tarunraju]

Military trains are rolling all over the country.


Legend has it, that India has inconspicuous looking freight wagons that are ICBM launchers. India can hit every capital from Dublin to Tokyo from these wagons rolling anywhere in India.

 

[fire starter]

hope they will overcome from shock.

 

[Neil]

Light tank comparison

Undertook a rudimentary analysis on the light #tank requirement basis data from the #IndianArmy RFI released in 2009.
Turns out the K21-105 & K21-120 tick more boxes than the Sprut SDM1 .
Moreover the K21 could be built at the @larsentoubro factory at #Hazira #Gujarat .

Did not consider Harimau due to Turkish content .
Similarly did not consider US MPF program vehicles as they're still in development.
Anders & CV90/120 due to 30+T weight restrictions .
That said the US MPF program offers two intriguing light tanks with the @BAESystemsInc M8 BUFORD & @GD_LandSystems Griffin 2.
Adding our numbers to the US requirement a run of 800 vehicles can be achieved reducing cost for both.

The K21-105/120 isn't air-droppable but brings a unique capability of a main gun that can have a 42° angle of fire . This allows for the tank to be used as indirect fire artillery support upto 15km distances . Very useful in mountain warfare.

Another area where both K21 versions score is the fact that they're much better armored than the Sprut .
Overall the K21-120 is a vehicle that outmatches the Sprut in firepower while being much better protected.
Add in the local production at L&T ,this tank has my vote.
Must add here that apart from the SPRUT SDM All other light tanks listed use either of the two plug & play solutions from Cockerill Defense . This turret & gun is now pretty much a @NATO standard that can fire all standard 105 & 120mm tank rounds from NATO countries.

It must similarly be considered that further orders for the SPRUT SDM1 were rejected by #Russian forces after the induction of only 24 units & a new light airborne tank is under development based on the 2S42 LOTOS platform pictured here.

The Cockerill turrets themselves are modular & can be tweaked for everything from 4x4 armored cars like the @anandmahindra ASLV to the BMP-2 all with different armament details.
Could be made in India with a JV.



Can the Cockerill 105 or 120, with a few modifications, made compatible with the DRDO-Tata Kestrel hull as a quick and easy solution for getting a light tank or tank destroyer??

As mentioned above the same family of turrets also has a branch of light turrets for 4x4 Armor like the @TataMotors LAMV or the @MahindraRise ASLV .
Would help build commonality & reduce logistical constraints.

In trials by the #Korean military the #Ukraine developed Falarick gun launched ATGM of K21 105/120 has displayed a penetration of 550mm RHA post ERA at 4000mtr+ range . This analysis has led the Korean military to conclude the K21 can defeat all DPRK Armor.
Putting this here so it doesn't slip out of the thread .
Would add that the #IndianArmy in 2009 had specified a requirement for 300 light tanks 100 tracked & 200 8x8 wheeled with similar specifics.
The thread above focuses only on the tracked units.

As promised @bdun53 sir, please find a rudimentary analysis of some existing 8x8 wheeled 105/120mm #tank destroyers available . There are newer vehicles in development at the moment as well that have not yet entered service like the @RheinmetallAG Boxer FSV .


In the wheeled comparison as well the ROSOMAK WIEL uses the same CMI 3105-gun as most of the tracked competitors. This system has now been trialled and adopted by the Korean, Indonesian, Turkish , Singapore, Swedish militaries & is entering trials with British & US forces.

It would be safe to say that the 3105 & versions are a successful military weapon system that has been adopted by many militaries & can provide the IA with a readymade solution for an effective light tank that would be more effective than the Sprut .

Thread by @Aryanwarlord: Undertook a rudimentary analysis on the light #tank requirement basis data from the #IndianArmy RFI released in 2009. Turns out the K21-105…

Thread by @Aryanwarlord: Undertook a rudimentary analysis on the light #tank requirement basis data from the #IndianArmy RFI released in 2009 the K21-105 & K21-120 tick more boxes than the Sprut SDM1 . Moreover the K21 could be built at the @larsento…

threadreaderapp.com

 

[Neil]

Army: How Red Tape Delayed the Procurement of Lightweight Tanks Until After Ladakh Faceoff

A handful of desultory indigenous attempts were initiated from the 1980s to locally develop a light tank, all regrettably stillborn.

Chandigarh: The Indian army’s recently announced emergency procurement of light, air-transportable tanks to augment its firepower in Himalayan regions like Ladakh, was first mooted in 2009. This happened soon after the country’s military planners shifted their strategic focus from Pakistan to the security threat posed by China.

Consequently, the army had issued a global request for information (RFI) for 200 wheeled and 100 tracked light tanks, weighing 22 tons each, which no doubt will now be dusted and recycled in an attempt to fast-track this long-proposed acquisition.

The tank numbers, however, are expected to vary, senior armoured corps officers told The Wire.

The 2009 light tank RFI had required the modularly constructed platforms to be ‘highly manoeuvrable’ with surveillance and communication capability, to provide the tanks flexibility for multi-purpose operations.


According to the Preliminary General Staff Qualitative Requirements (PGSQRs) formulated by the army’s Mechanised Forces Directorate at the time, both the 8×8 wheeled and tracked light tanks were to be 2.8m high and 7.8m long and needed to possess a low silhouette and amphibious capability.

The PGSQR’s further stated that they were required to be fitted with a 105mm or 120mm gun, capable of firing an assortment of projectiles. High ground clearance, defensive aid suites offering protection against laser, thermal and radar guided munitions and nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) protection completed the projected tanks’ specifications.

In 2009 the light tanks were envisaged as part of the two mountain divisions that were then under raising – and have since been commissioned for deployment along the 3,488-km-long disputed Line of Actual Control (LAC) with China in the northeast and in Ladakh.

They were also aimed at providing firepower to the proposed 90,270-strong 17 Mountain Strike Corps (MSC) to counter the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) that has been shelved due to an enduring financial resource crunch.

A proportion of the light tanks were also being inducted as force multipliers to India’s ‘cold start’ doctrine against Pakistan of going on the offensive in a limited war scenario under the nuclear umbrella to achieve ‘bargainable’ military gains. Alongside, these platforms could also be deployed in urban and semi-urban environments and in riverine terrain and marshy ground along India’s eastern borders.

Responses to the RFI were received, but thereafter no formal tender was issued as the entire proposal like many others was shelved because of the army’s indifference, disputes over indigenising the programme and, above all, competing financial claims by existing T72, T90 and Arjun main battle tank (MBT) ventures.

But a handful of desultory indigenous attempts were initiated from the 1980s to locally develop a light tank, all regrettably stillborn.

In the mid-1980s, for instance, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) replaced the turret of the Soviet-designed BMP infantry combat vehicle (ICV) with a 105 mm gun, but the project was eventually terminated in 1994 due to indifference by the army. The latter declared the light tank to be superfluous, an assessment that would come to haunt it decades later in 2020.

Undaunted, the DRDO designed another light tank based on the same licence-built ICV chassis, by mounting it with a French GIAT TS-90 turret and a 105 mm gun. Firing and stability trials were conducted, but once again due to army indifference, the project was shelved.

It was temporarily revived in 2009 with the RFI, but this too got lost in the bureaucratic maze of army headquarters and was abandoned till the ongoing standoff with the PLA in Ladakh erupted in early May.

For, much as a testament to the Indian Army’s flawed assessments, backing the PLA formations in the face-off was the Chinese Type 15 light tank, also known as the ZTQ-15 that can be airlifted and even paradropped by China’s Y 20 military cargo aircraft.

Designed and manufactured by China’s North Industries Group Corporation Limited or NORINCO and unveiled during the Zhuhai Air Show in 2016 (and publicly at a military parade in late 2019) the 30-33 tonne highly agile Type 15 tanks are fitted with a 105 mm rifled gun with a thermal sleeve and fume extractor that has a maximum firing range of 3,000m. The tanks also have an automatic loading system and empty shells are ejected via a small hatch located at the rear of the turret.

The tanks can carry a total of 38 rounds of assorted ammunition, that includes tungsten-alloy armour piercing fin stablished discarding sabot (APFSDS) and high explosive (HE) rounds. Additionally, they can fire a guided missile with High Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT) warheads with a 5,000m range which can penetrate the explosive reactive armour of the Indian Army’s T72M1s and T90S that are presently deployed against the PLA offensive in Ladakh.

Powered by a 1,000hp electronically controlled diesel engine, mounted at the rear of the hull and coupled to a hydro-mechanical full automatic transmission, the Type 15 tanks are also NBC-protected and air conditioned and fitted with inertial navigation and satellite communication systems. Interestingly, Bangladesh is possibly the only country to which China has exported around 40 Type 15 tanks. It reportedly has another 150 on order from Dhaka.

Meanwhile, the Indian army’s 130-150 mostly upgraded licence-built Soviet-era T72M1 and T90S MBT are more suited to operating in the Rajasthan desert region and the Punjab plains. And though they do bring formidable fire power with their 125 mm guns that can fire varied ammunition, neither MBT has missile firing capability.

Besides, navigating their bulk in the Himalayan regions too poses problems, while their engines need to be started for 10-20 minutes every four hours in a 24-hour cycle to ensure their availability when operationally needed. A tank detail is deputed to execute this recurring chore, whose frequency increases during the winter months, when temperatures drop to around – 35°C.

“Inducting light tanks along the LAC in Ladakh will provide the army greater flexibility in the difficult terrain,” said former Major General A.P. Singh. But it will take a while to acquire these platforms and till then we have no choice but to manage with the armour we have in Ladakh, conceded the retired armoured corps officer.

Earlier, the Indian Army operated French AMX13 light tanks, and its successor, the amphibious Soviet-era PT-76s till the 1970s, that were deployed effectively against East Pakistan, later Bangladesh. During the 1962 war with China some AMX-13s were airlifted to the Chinese border aboard the Antonov An-32 transport aircraft, but were unable to halt the PLA.


Both light tank types were deployed during the 1971 operations in the eastern and western sector and performed moderately well, but were phased out soon after, giving way to heavier platforms.

Ironically, over four decades later, light tanks are poised to make a comeback once again.

Army: How Red Tape Delayed the Procurement of Lightweight Tanks Until After Ladakh Faceoff

A handful of desultory indigenous attempts were initiated from the 1980s to locally develop a light tank, all regrettably stillborn.

thewire.in

 

[BangaliBabu]

Military trains are rolling all over the country.


Legend has it, that India has inconspicuous looking freight wagons that are ICBM launchers. India can hit every capital from Dublin to Tokyo from these wagons rolling anywhere in India.

More hoax than legend

 

[Lancer]

Why tho?.. Tanks that can operate there are already in service.

India is trying to catch up with the past or, at best, present - rather than getting ahead into the future.

Why waste money and time on light tanks (where there aren't very many good options anyways) - when you can simply counter the Chinese through other means?

Increasing + improving anti-tank weaponry with ground troops, increasing helicopters like LCH's and Rudras (with functional ATGMs), and either upgrading BMP's (or procuring a different AIFV) with ability to swarm, outmaneuver/outrun and kill tanks.