India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

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Assassin 2.0

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I stood 2.5 hrs in line to vote for this govt. But there is something certain wrong at LAC. Why isn't govt strongly refuting all these media rumours.
I have said many times, we should capture their land across LAC at Arunachal, Sikkim or Himachal . This is the best solution to avoid war at this stage.
Don't act like a Kid.
Under crisis government doesn't act like a simple average government which will share every little thing or citizens can call for RTI bs.
Government act like some sort of empire which hides the thing's some times do brutal crimes against humanity for the benefits of the country.
Anyway why you want government to respond to every single news report thousands of reports can be made by Chinese or porki assets to cause a breakdown in india their are millions of people in india alone which want our country to lose the fight aka ajay shukla types and some other cancer.

Never think that people in power are naive or stupid they have learnt to deal with these things whole life.
It's very highly possible that india have also deployed heavy numbers of soldiers were we have a edge to maintain pressure on Chinese.
This is a long term conflict which will go on month's it can be dissolved by show of power or it can turn into full fledge war by one spark only time can tell.

We can judge the performance afterwards today we have no information we are blind in the forum.
 

ARVION

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Employment of Mechanised Forces In Himalayan Terrain by Lt Gen Dalip Bhardwaj


Author: Lt Gen Dalip Bhardwaj, PVSM, VSM (Retd)


In August 2010 the PLA conducted a logistic exercise on mobilisation and movement of large formations on the Qinghai-Tibet railway line. In October 2010 the PLA conducted its first Group Army level joint air-land exercise (Shimingxindong) by both Lanzhou and Chengdu Military regions to practice manoeuvres and ground-air coordination. In November 2011 the PLA practised capture of military passes in HAA beyond 5,000m by employing armoured vehicles and airborne troops.
As per media reports the Army is planning to raise two armoured brigades. (six armoured regiments and two mechanised infantry battalions) especially for the Northern borders to be employed along with the Mountain Strike Corps planned to be raised. This no doubt will give a boost to our defensive and offensive capabilities, but what needs to be analysed is its equipment profile of the mechanised forces and their employment in these areas.

The most dangerous threat to our security would be a simultaneous conventionalattack on both our Northern and Western fronts supported by internal disturbances. Hence the armed forces must be prepared to dissuade, deter and if necessary take punitive action. As all future wars will be joint operations the synergy and capabilities of the services need to be enhanced. The Army in particular would need to upgrade its fire power and manoeuvre capabilities to operate in High Altitude Areas (HAA)
China over the past two decades has made phenomenal advances in their capabilities to operate along our Northern borders. They first enhanced their development of their infrastructure and have now provided all weather metalled roads leading to the Tibetan plateau right up to their border posts. Apart from this their railway lines connecting their hinterland to the plateau have greatly enhanced their mobilisation capability. The POL pipelines provide adequate logistic support to the deployed troops
India has approx 3,380 km long border in the North with China which has not yet been demarcated. The dispute over demarcation has flared up on more than one occasion resulting in a war in 1962 and subsequently remained tense on more than one occasion. Despite signing the Treaty of Peace and Tranquillity and holding 16 rounds of talks to resolve the contentious issue, not much headway has been made. After 50 years of the 1962 war, the Army needs to re-analyse the concept of defending our Northern borders against China in the present scenario.
The most dangerous threat to our security would be a simultaneous conventional attack on both our Northern and Western fronts supported by internal disturbances. Hence the armed forces must be prepared to dissuade, deter and if necessary take punitive action. As all future wars will be joint operations the synergy and capabilities of the services need to be enhanced. The Army in particular would need to upgrade its firepower and manoeuvre capabilities to operate in High Altitude Areas (HAA). With the induction of the 155 mm Light Howitzer Gun M777, the fire support would be enhanced to a large extent. As per media reports the Army is planning to raise two armoured brigades (six armoured regiments and two mechanised infantry battalions) especially for the Northern borders to be employed along with the Mountain Strike Corps planned to be raised. This no doubt will give a boost to our defensive and offensive capabilities, but what needs to be analysed is its equipment profile of the mechanised forces and their employment in these areas.
Aim: The aim of this article is to analyse the employment of Mechanised Forces along our Northern borders.

Historical perspective
On 27 October 1947 the first Indian Army troops landed in Srinagar to implement the Instrument of Accession whereby the state of Jammu and Kashmir acceded to India. The attention of the Army was diverted towards the West. In June 1948 Pakistan attempted to sever Ladakh and occupied the heights dominating the only road axis between Srinagar and Leh at Kargil, Dras and Zoji La and thereby isolating the garrison at Leh. The operations launched to clear the road axis could not make much progress as the enemy was well entrenched on dominating heights at 16,000 ft. The crux of the problem was to clear the Zoji La Pass (11,575 ft) and hence Maj Gen K S Thimayya, then GOC Srinagar Division conceived the idea of employing tanks to clear the pass and road axis. Tanks had never been employed at such heights and the problem was compounded by logistical difficulties of moving tanks from the plains of Jammu to the operational area.
On 23 September, orders were issued to Lt Col Rajinder Singh (CO 7 Cav) to move his tank squadron (Stuart tanks) from Akhnoor to Baltal and along with 77 Para Brigade clear the Zoji La Pass by 31 October 1948 (Snow would have made Zoji La Pass impassable thereafter). Due to lack of adequate infrastructure, the tanks had to be dismantled and the turret, chassis and ammunition moved separately. As the bridges could not take the combined weight of the tank and transporters, the chassis had to be frequently dismounted and cross the bridges on tracks. The move commenced on 05 October and was completed on 15 October. The tanks were thereafter reassembled and readied for battle at Baltal (base of Zoji La Pass). To ensure surprise the convoy moved only at night. Simultaneously the Engineer task force was converting the existing track of 7.5 km length to a road wide enough for tanks. In addition caves were made at the head of the pass to hide the tanks. This herculean task was successfully completed and the attack was launched on 01 November.
Tanks led the assault and the enemy was totally surprised with the appearance of the tanks with their deafening roar and spitting fire on the well entrenched enemy that within the next 8 hrs Zoji La Pass and the adjoining Gumri Basin fell to 77 Para Brigade. Thereafter tanks were employed upto Dras and on 14 November they were de-inducted before the pass closed for the winter season. Strategic, operational and tactical surprise was achieved with the appearance and employment of tanks at that altitude, a first in the history of tank warfare. It was truly a game changer as subsequently the link up with Leh garrison was facilitated which ensured the liberation of Ladakh.
During the 1962 war against China the Indian Air Force was not employed, nor were the tanks employed. The lessons learnt have oft been repeated, however, time has now come to ensure that when the bugle calls the mechanised forces are appropriately equipped, organised and trained to secure our Northern borders
During the 1962 operations with China, two Armoured Regiments were moved, however they saw little or no action. It was only in the late 1980s that tanks and ICVs were deployed in HAA. The move of tanks to Leh was again a mammoth logistic exercise. The T-72 tanks had to be dismantled and flown to Leh where a major exercise followed to re-assemble the tanks, conduct zeroing of their guns and preparing them operationally.
Tanks and IFVs are being employed by ISAF in Afghanistan achieving phenomenal success, dominating their area of responsibility. No operation is being conducted in the hinterland without the support of tanks. It is the intimidating effect of the tank with its accurate fire power, mobility and inherent protection which has an awesome effect on the enemy and belligerent local population. AFVs are being employed for multifarious tasks such as road clearance, convoy protection, direct fire support to the assaulting infantry and occupying pivots of manoeuvre.

Peculiarities of operating in high altitude areas
The challenges to man and machine operating in HAA are many. Half the battle is won if both the soldier and his weapon platform are fighting fit. The altitudes of the border areas vary from 11,000 to 18,000 ft where the oxygen content being low, the performance of both deteriorates sharply. If proper acclimatisation is done the soldiers overcome many hazards, however it is the equipment that has to be specifically designed to operate in these adverse conditions.
Terrain: The borders to the North can be further divided into three distinct sectors, the Western, Central and Eastern sectors. All three sectors have their own peculiarities. The Western sector (Ladakh) is more akin to the deserts with wide valleys and flat open terrain giving a frontage for upto two troops of tanks to operate. The hill features on either side are dominating and would require high angle direct fire weapons to provide intimate fire support. In the Eastern sector the valleys are narrower till the start of the Tibet plateau. The problem is that lateral movement between valleys is non-existent hence the greater challenge of inducting troops and subsequent reinforcements to the desired area.
The future ICV being indigenously developed has been conceived keeping our requirements for both the Northern and Western theatres. Hence a tracked and wheeled version of the ICV is likely to be inducted by 2017
Infrastructure:
A concerted effort is being made to develop and upgrade the infrastructure as regards roads, bridges and air-strips. However greater urgency is required to ensure the desired level of operational and tactical mobility is achieved. Simultaneously, construction of insulated garages for the AFVs and appropriate ammunition dumps especially for the anti-tank missiles need priority. As deployment areas are restricted, construction of large tunnels and caves in the hillsides are ideal for AFVs as they provide additional protection and security.
 

garg_bharat

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Garg Sahaab, I am also fully behind the decision whatever gov deems fit in this situation unlike parasitic khangress but I will still not give them chance to get away with failure of this order. It has not happened first time, pathankot to uri to pullwama to now chinese incursion.
Whether we like it or not, Modi too had similar obsession of becoming Bapu of the world by engaging rouge nation like pakistan, thanks to mujahid. Why one has to burn his/her hand to learn how to deal with land of marde momin when you have whole history littered with betrayal, bloodshed, backstabbing from our both neighbours.
I am dead against this Prithviraj syndrome of our society/country, pardoning enemy.... Moral values have no place in modern battle be it geopolitical or military.
Boss India has made a lot of progress in uplifting life of its people since the dark days of early 90s when our forex reserves hit single digits.

Whatever we do externally (war or peace), it has to be done is such a way that economic growth does not go for a toss.

So unilateral action is not the best way. Wait for China to piss off more countries. 'bahti ganga me haath dhona' better hai. And why stop at Depsang. Go for Aksai Chin.
 

mokoman

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Chinese diplomat meets with Vietnamese counterpart to discuss the waterway, while Beijing-backed investment institution lends US$100 million to bank in Vietnam

The Beijing-backed Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) said on Friday that it would lend US$100 million to the Vietnam Prosperity Joint Stock Commercial Bank to help the bank expand lending to private businesses disrupted by the coronavirus pandemic.

Chinese trying to lure countries to its side with money.

:hmm: If soldiers had'nt died at the border , they would have pulled out and tried to push us to be neutral.
 

garg_bharat

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Managing media, info, narrative, perception etc all are part of modern tool to wage war... If you call surrendering is great strategy then better bless india to be colonized again. What was projected by rioters in anti CAA riots outside India was not less than "Indian Spring".
Point is very simple if state doesn't have gumption to fight falsehood/narrative battle fiercely then our existence as country is under serious question in future.
At least we are better than Chinese! Remember no casualty!

Which country gives you minute by minute account of military engagements?

You can fault media strategy of government but at least government is not spinning the situation wildly as happens in Pakistan.

The problem here is that some people will doubt whatever government says. I on the other hand will trust government unless proven wrong by substantial evidence.
 

Kalki2020

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Boss India has made a lot of progress in uplifting life of its people since the dark days of early 90s when our forex reserves hit single digits.

Whatever we do externally (war or peace), it has to be done is such a way that economic growth does not go for a toss.

So unilateral action is not the best way. Wait for China to piss off more countries. 'bahti ganga me haath dhona' better hai. And why stop at Depsang. Go for Aksai Chin.
Offcourse we should wait for other to join until Galwan like incident nail our heads...
See this is exactly what I have problem with.
First not preempting & then not firing the first bullet for the sake of keeping our good image intact/winning the hearts of our enemy are symptoms of pusillanimity & saying so doesn't mean I am asking for war without weighing the situation & time.

I am in love with no first use policy too, what kind of world we are living in. Whether you observe these things are not but all hints in same direction, Prithviraj syndrome.
 

Hari Sud

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Is this Chinese new brinkmanship or posturing in Ladakh?

If it is both the above, then the Chinese have lost the game. I hope it is not true. I choose to assume that Chinese with these minor intrusions on one or two hilltops in Ladakh is an effort to offer Pakistanis a breathing room after the Article 370 abolition and declared Indian intent to regain the a Pakistani Occupied territory. No Indian plans to capture POK have been made public. We are merely guessing that the Chinese are trying to defocus India from its declared intent. The Chinese quickly signed a dam building contract in POK (Basha Dam) and on a long range basis their intent is to protect the CPEC road. The former quick agreement for construction in disputed territory will allow Chinese to enter the war theatre to protect their own interests. Although the CPEC road is a waste of money with hundreds and hundreds of lorries daily crossing the 14,000 feet Khunjereb Pass with great difficulty, nevertheless, for China it is of good strategic value and for cash low Pakistan, any investment is good. Besides, it pulls Pakistan into a military standoff with India with Chinese nod.

If India keeps up its strong military posture in Ladakh and beats the hell of the Chinese if they come even close to Daulat Beg Oldi via Despang plains then all Chinese plans are thwarted. The current fight started by the Chinese on LAC is to frustrate the full construction of Darbuk-Shyokh-Daulat Beg Oldie (DSDBO) road. If the road does get fully operational then Chinese on their part wish to sit on hilltops to watch movements on the road. That is what India is preventing to happen and forcing Chinese out from hilltops.

Nearer to the strategic trijunction of Chinese occupied Akash chin plateau, POK and Indian Administered Kashmir, there is an area where Chinese and Pakistani forces could link up and administer a strategic defeat to India. That is what a major Indian armor and artillery buildup at Despang plains will prevent. With the Indian road completed and Indian airstrip fully operational near this area and also Leh becomes a fully operational air base, Chinese and Pakistanis link up, have no chance. Moreover, Indian troops from Arunachal Pradesh to Daulat Beg Oldi are so strongly positioned that the Chinese would dare with their overconfidence but run back quickly. Pakistanis have no infrastructure, first to come and then to tie up with Chinese and to occupy the area.

There is another issue at play. China is the key factor in this years US election results. The incumbent president’s foolish twitter posts have alienated quite a few. Whatever have not been alienated have become angry with the President for not being on the same page with local governors and city officials in handling the Covid response. Now people are angry for their predicament and easiest target is the President. That makes him harder to get reelected. Hence In this tough situation, US does not know with clarity as to how to respond to the Chinese pandemic challenge. Hence Chinese have spurned off US two carrier challenge in South China Sea. This directly does not impact Indian response, but two contesting candidates have not made their position clear onto either to blame Chinese for Covid spread and move out of China or business as usual. If blame is laid squarely on the Chinese, then a US / China confrontation is very clear.

Hence trying guess work on the Chinese intent of this flare up in Ladakh, I think it is simply a posturing to help out Pakistan from its current difficult situation both military and economic. The Pakistani Military and its subservient civilian government are watching India - China fight with great interest. Temporarily it has thwarted Modi plans to grab POK this year in the winter. It has also brought focus on expansionist China. The rapid spread of Wuhan virus has put brakes on Chinese expansionist plans. Thither is a bigger danger to China, because disapproving world blames China for the pandemic and has decided to cut Chinese imports. In some cases the West has decided to move factories out of China. The foregoing is bad for Chinese over confidence. Today there is a greater focus to contain this virus. Hence, understanding the precarious situation and also to reassure the little Asian allies, US dispatched two Aircraft carriers to South China Sea. Immediately Chinese focus shifted to South China Sea. Although they do not admit, yet their nervousness is apparent. Possible fight in Ladakh ended and talks began. That is India’s opportunity to extract from the Chinese the removal of any Chinese troops from the Ladakh heights. ........ If all efforts fail in next two months, then a shooting war is a foregone conclusion. That will be the best time to show China, the Indian wrist of steel and a will of iron.
 

ARVION

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This article's is from an idiot's.
 

LETHALFORCE

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Alliance system is outdated.
India have something different in it's mind.
You will see india playing a big part in new world order and this doesn't mean india ain't gonna make partnership with USA.
But it will be totally different than nato.
Countries are forming alliances (against India ) in asia. What is the different thing
India trying to do??
 
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