India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[ARVION]

I blame Baba for this. Every Tom Dick and Harry including his dog pluto keeps saying "Something Big is Cooking" every 3rd day. Ultimately turns out to be Birbal Ki Khichadi

Worst Tenali Rama's ki Kheer's .

 

[IndianHawk]

Damn... i expecting it to be increased aftr 2014 since nationalistic govt is in power.. cnt digest that mute mms spent more as a percentage of gdp..

This comparison with upa is bullshit. What did upa ever bought for all this increased allocation ??
It was a trick to fool people. They showed higher allocation and then never make a decision to purchase anything then return most of the money to social Ponzi schemes.

It took a modi to order 36 rafale after 10 years ( 2004 mmrca).

Modi on the other hand made actual purchase . Applies orop and every year actual spend on military was more than budget estimate ( opposite of what upa did).

There is a whole thread by @Ezasa about modi government procurements. Just see and compare it what UPA actually bought.

Modi bought 36 rafale 83 mk1a nearing order , 12su30+ 21 mig29upg ( total 152 jets ordered already) .s400 , 6 SSN approved , 150000 sig , mku helmets, lakhs of bpj , 4 more talwar class , 7 p17A , 16 asw frigate, 5 replenishment ships huge , 114+300 dhanush , 40 atags lsp , 145 ulh , 15 Chinook , 22+6 Apache , 24 mh60 , 100 k9 , 118 mk1a ( Arjun) , 464 t90 , hundreds of spike , hellfire , more p8i . 50+248 Astra ordered lots of barak 8 and akash Sam squadrons. Qrsam coming too..A lot more I don't recall like airfield modernization.

And over that emergency powers given to forces of 500 crore each . War reserve re plenished. And strategic programs like ASAT done + BMD .
New development starter for mwf and tedbf .

Let's look at actual spend and actual purchase rather falling into false data trap.

 

[Narasimh]

View attachment 53538

The P8 I's Netune's and IL 38's over the Port Blaine's airport . C . 2016 .

This is not Port Blair airport

 

[IndianHawk]

View attachment 53535

Jaguar's the shamsher's at Adamanese's Island's .

Ooh!! The harpoon . Jags can still hit enemy ships with harpoon almost 1000 km away from base.
(1000km east from andmaan)..

And people think iaf / navy would retire them before completely using airframe life. Lol.

 

[IndianHawk]

jags in car nicobar island, that too with harpoons? Interesting. who will provide the escort? 29k's?

They don't really need escort that harpoon can be fired away from 300 km almost. No Chinese air to air missiles can touch them at that distance.

 

[Synergy]

I blame Baba for this. Every Tom Dick and Harry including his dog pluto keeps saying "Something Big is Cooking" every 3rd day. Ultimately turns out to be Birbal Ki Khichadi

2 US ACs with a heli carrier around SCS, HMS Queen Elizabeth, b52 and b1 in Guam, 1 US AC in bob, jags with harpoon in a&n, give you this conclusion?

then sorry.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

@IndianHawk Yeah, sure Modi isn't perfect. But he is the leader that India needs right now. And frankly who will be his alternative anyway? If say we don't want Modi as our PM.

Atleast Modi is doing something. Its far better than doing nothing. And even more better than doing something negative work like the UPA2. The whole world was shocked after seeing India's reaction in the aftermath of 26/11 attacks.

 

[utubekhiladi]

i had weird dream last night, swear on god.

the dream goes something like this.. i was flying Rudra Mk2 (if there is such thing) over despang plains and i crossed LAC for some classified mission. then suddenly i saw a silver line of cloud at far distance and it grew bigger and bigger as it came closer.

i realized this must be some kind of type 34 SAM shit that was fired by bat munchers upon me. type 34 SAM(if such thing exists) is there standard missile. so i yelled at my co-poilet, hold on to your butt and i started doing crazy maneuvers to evade the incoming shit, for a moment, my rudra mk2 become as competent as thrust vectoring mki's and started pulling all kinds of turns and G's, inverted cobras... also dispensing shit load of flares, chaffs and firing counter sam missile (HeliNaARM, if there is a such a thing),

the incoming shit makes a close flyby, no explosion. i thought i am lucky, but the missile now gets on my 6 and now closing in... i again pulled all G's and stuffs and deploying counter measures.. this time the missile fly very close under my heli belly.. again, no explosion.. i am like "what the hell? who do i have to thank for so much luck"

the missile now made a sharp U and now closing in head-on very fast... i m now out of flares, chaffs and stuffs... i closed my eyes for the inevitability. thinking about a flashback scene where i am celebrating Diwali with my family and friends.. trying to think of all my loved one faces for one last time..

the missile again made a close flyby on my port side and no explosion.. the missile was about to make another U but this time, it ran out of fuel and fall down like a dead bird.

i thought for a moment, scratching my head and said to my co-pilot, damn, their missiles proximity fuse is not working... which mean all their type 34 SAMs are all duds. our strike fighters will make kabab out of them..

i landed back at LEH base hoping to get a heros welcomes and i was clearing expecting a paparazzi moment like captain abhinandan... my co called me said, good job on your mission to find-out if those type 34's were duds or not.. now for your next mission. you will fly at 0400 hrs and test their s300.

holycrap and i woke up. i was sent on suicide mission

i m not kidding, you can't make this shit up...

 

[ARVION]

This is not Port Blair airport

Thanks for the correctione's .

 

[Sehwag213]

 

[garg_bharat]

View attachment 53538

The P8 I's Netune's and IL 38's over the Port Blaine's airport . C . 2016 .

yaar tum to moorkh banate ho.
This is P3 and P8 over Petuxant river.

 

[ARVION]

yaar tum to moorkh banate ho.
This is P3 and P8 over Petuxant river.

And again thank for the correction's.

 

[cereal killer]

i had weird dream last night, swear on god.

the dream goes something like this.. i was flying Rudra Mk2 (if there is such thing) over despang plains and i crossed LAC for some classified mission. then suddenly i saw a silver line of cloud at far distance and it grew bigger and bigger as it came closer.

i realized this must be some kind of type 34 SAM shit that was fired by bat munchers upon me. type 34 SAM(if such thing exists) is there standard missile. so i yelled at my co-poilet, hold on to your butt and i started doing crazy maneuvers to evade the incoming shit, for a moment, my rudra mk2 become as competent as thrust vectoring mki's and started pulling all kinds of turns and G's, inverted cobras... also dispensing shit load of flares, chaffs and firing counter sam missile (HeliNaARM, if there is a such a thing),

the incoming shit makes a close flyby, no explosion. i thought i am lucky, but the missile now gets on my 6 and now closing in... i again pulled all G's and stuffs and deploying counter measures.. this time the missile fly very close under my heli belly.. again, no explosion.. i am like "what the hell? who do i have to thank for so much luck"

the missile now made a sharp U and now closing in head-on very fast... i m now out of flares, chaffs and stuffs... i closed my eyes for the inevitability. thinking about a flashback scene where i am celebrating Diwali with my family and friends.. trying to think of all my loved one faces for one last time..

the missile again made a close flyby on my port side and no explosion.. the missile was about to make another U but this time, it ran out of fuel and fall down like a dead bird.

i thought for a moment, scratching my head and said to my co-pilot, damn, their missiles proximity fuse is not working... which mean all their type 34 SAMs are all duds. our strike fighters will make kabab out of them..

i landed back at LEH base hoping to get a heros welcomes and i was clearing expecting a paparazzi moment like captain abhinandan... my co called me said, good job on your mission to find-out if those type 34's were duds or not.. now for your next mission. you will fly at 0400 hrs and test their s300.

holycrap and i woke up. i was sent on suicide mission

i m not kidding, you can't make this shit up...

Damn dude are you writing a climax of Baaghi 4 or what?

 

[dumdumdum]

2 US ACs with a heli carrier around SCS, HMS Queen Elizabeth, b52 and b1 in Guam, 1 US AC in bob, jags with harpoon in a&n, give you this conclusion?

then sorry.

I draw exactly opposite conclusion. They are there to ensure nothing big happens. To give India the feeling that Chinese are being put under pressure. To make China see that any action beyond this point is foolhardy. Essentially US assuring one and putting pressure on other to ensure that there is no armed conflict between 2 nuclear armed states at a time when they are going to elect a new president

 

[ARVION]

Garg bharat ji could you find pictures of aircraft over Adamanese's island's please .

 

[doreamon]

This comparison with upa is bullshit. What did upa ever bought for all this increased allocation ??
It was a trick to fool people. They showed higher allocation and then never make a decision to purchase anything then return most of the money to social Ponzi schemes.

It took a modi to order 36 rafale after 10 years ( 2004 mmrca).

Modi on the other hand made actual purchase . Applies orop and every year actual spend on military was more than budget estimate ( opposite of what upa did).

There is a whole thread by @Ezasa about modi government procurements. Just see and compare it what UPA actually bought.

Modi bought 36 rafale 83 mk1a nearing order , 12su30+ 21 mig29upg ( total 152 jets ordered already) .s400 , 6 SSN approved , 150000 sig , mku helmets, lakhs of bpj , 4 more talwar class , 7 p17A , 16 asw frigate, 5 replenishment ships huge , 114+300 dhanush , 40 atags lsp , 145 ulh , 15 Chinook , 22+6 Apache , 24 mh60 , 100 k9 , 118 mk1a ( Arjun) , 464 t90 , hundreds of spike , hellfire , more p8i . 50+248 Astra ordered lots of barak 8 and akash Sam squadrons. Qrsam coming too..A lot more I don't recall like airfield modernization.

And over that emergency powers given to forces of 500 crore each . War reserve re plenished. And strategic programs like ASAT done + BMD .
New development starter for mwf and tedbf .

Let's look at actual spend and actual purchase rather falling into false data trap.

As of now modi is best we have , fine but there is a gap between expectation and reality

Defence spending slips when NDA is in power, Rs 11,595 crore unspent

This year, over Rs 11,595 cr or 13.4% of funds earmarked for purchase of military equipment have been returned unspent.

www.google.com

 

[Synergy]

I draw exactly opposite conclusion. They are there to ensure nothing big happens. To give India the feeling that Chinese are being put under pressure. To make China see that any action beyond this point is foolhardy. Essentially US assuring one and putting pressure on other to ensure that there is no armed conflict between 2 nuclear armed states at a time when they are going to elect a new president

no doubt it's a part of posturing.

but, do you think China will go back if we don't crumble like 2013? with 3 divisions (may be more in the rear)? any action beyond this point, so what will happen to the actions that has been taken till now?

on the other hand, what's about quad, anti Taiwan invasion bill, hk bill, xinjiang bill etc?

above all, will China be able to afford a loss of face?

just asking...

 

[tsunami]

Wait for some big news tomorrow! Bharat Mata ki Jai!

Tomorrow ho gaya kya??

 

[Tuco]

Tomorrow ho gaya kya??

Tomorrow to Kal hoga. Aaj to today hey.

 

[Floydian]

Army: How Red Tape Delayed the Procurement of Lightweight Tanks Until After Ladakh Faceoff

A handful of desultory indigenous attempts were initiated from the 1980s to locally develop a light tank, all regrettably stillborn.

Chandigarh: The Indian army’s recently announced emergency procurement of light, air-transportable tanks to augment its firepower in Himalayan regions like Ladakh, was first mooted in 2009. This happened soon after the country’s military planners shifted their strategic focus from Pakistan to the security threat posed by China.

Consequently, the army had issued a global request for information (RFI) for 200 wheeled and 100 tracked light tanks, weighing 22 tons each, which no doubt will now be dusted and recycled in an attempt to fast-track this long-proposed acquisition.

The tank numbers, however, are expected to vary, senior armoured corps officers told The Wire.

The 2009 light tank RFI had required the modularly constructed platforms to be ‘highly manoeuvrable’ with surveillance and communication capability, to provide the tanks flexibility for multi-purpose operations.


According to the Preliminary General Staff Qualitative Requirements (PGSQRs) formulated by the army’s Mechanised Forces Directorate at the time, both the 8×8 wheeled and tracked light tanks were to be 2.8m high and 7.8m long and needed to possess a low silhouette and amphibious capability.

The PGSQR’s further stated that they were required to be fitted with a 105mm or 120mm gun, capable of firing an assortment of projectiles. High ground clearance, defensive aid suites offering protection against laser, thermal and radar guided munitions and nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) protection completed the projected tanks’ specifications.

In 2009 the light tanks were envisaged as part of the two mountain divisions that were then under raising – and have since been commissioned for deployment along the 3,488-km-long disputed Line of Actual Control (LAC) with China in the northeast and in Ladakh.

They were also aimed at providing firepower to the proposed 90,270-strong 17 Mountain Strike Corps (MSC) to counter the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) that has been shelved due to an enduring financial resource crunch.

A proportion of the light tanks were also being inducted as force multipliers to India’s ‘cold start’ doctrine against Pakistan of going on the offensive in a limited war scenario under the nuclear umbrella to achieve ‘bargainable’ military gains. Alongside, these platforms could also be deployed in urban and semi-urban environments and in riverine terrain and marshy ground along India’s eastern borders.

Responses to the RFI were received, but thereafter no formal tender was issued as the entire proposal like many others was shelved because of the army’s indifference, disputes over indigenising the programme and, above all, competing financial claims by existing T72, T90 and Arjun main battle tank (MBT) ventures.

But a handful of desultory indigenous attempts were initiated from the 1980s to locally develop a light tank, all regrettably stillborn.

In the mid-1980s, for instance, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) replaced the turret of the Soviet-designed BMP infantry combat vehicle (ICV) with a 105 mm gun, but the project was eventually terminated in 1994 due to indifference by the army. The latter declared the light tank to be superfluous, an assessment that would come to haunt it decades later in 2020.

Undaunted, the DRDO designed another light tank based on the same licence-built ICV chassis, by mounting it with a French GIAT TS-90 turret and a 105 mm gun. Firing and stability trials were conducted, but once again due to army indifference, the project was shelved.

It was temporarily revived in 2009 with the RFI, but this too got lost in the bureaucratic maze of army headquarters and was abandoned till the ongoing standoff with the PLA in Ladakh erupted in early May.

For, much as a testament to the Indian Army’s flawed assessments, backing the PLA formations in the face-off was the Chinese Type 15 light tank, also known as the ZTQ-15 that can be airlifted and even paradropped by China’s Y 20 military cargo aircraft.

Designed and manufactured by China’s North Industries Group Corporation Limited or NORINCO and unveiled during the Zhuhai Air Show in 2016 (and publicly at a military parade in late 2019) the 30-33 tonne highly agile Type 15 tanks are fitted with a 105 mm rifled gun with a thermal sleeve and fume extractor that has a maximum firing range of 3,000m. The tanks also have an automatic loading system and empty shells are ejected via a small hatch located at the rear of the turret.

The tanks can carry a total of 38 rounds of assorted ammunition, that includes tungsten-alloy armour piercing fin stablished discarding sabot (APFSDS) and high explosive (HE) rounds. Additionally, they can fire a guided missile with High Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT) warheads with a 5,000m range which can penetrate the explosive reactive armour of the Indian Army’s T72M1s and T90S that are presently deployed against the PLA offensive in Ladakh.

Powered by a 1,000hp electronically controlled diesel engine, mounted at the rear of the hull and coupled to a hydro-mechanical full automatic transmission, the Type 15 tanks are also NBC-protected and air conditioned and fitted with inertial navigation and satellite communication systems. Interestingly, Bangladesh is possibly the only country to which China has exported around 40 Type 15 tanks. It reportedly has another 150 on order from Dhaka.

Meanwhile, the Indian army’s 130-150 mostly upgraded licence-built Soviet-era T72M1 and T90S MBT are more suited to operating in the Rajasthan desert region and the Punjab plains. And though they do bring formidable fire power with their 125 mm guns that can fire varied ammunition, neither MBT has missile firing capability.

Besides, navigating their bulk in the Himalayan regions too poses problems, while their engines need to be started for 10-20 minutes every four hours in a 24-hour cycle to ensure their availability when operationally needed. A tank detail is deputed to execute this recurring chore, whose frequency increases during the winter months, when temperatures drop to around – 35°C.

“Inducting light tanks along the LAC in Ladakh will provide the army greater flexibility in the difficult terrain,” said former Major General A.P. Singh. But it will take a while to acquire these platforms and till then we have no choice but to manage with the armour we have in Ladakh, conceded the retired armoured corps officer.

Earlier, the Indian Army operated French AMX13 light tanks, and its successor, the amphibious Soviet-era PT-76s till the 1970s, that were deployed effectively against East Pakistan, later Bangladesh. During the 1962 war with China some AMX-13s were airlifted to the Chinese border aboard the Antonov An-32 transport aircraft, but were unable to halt the PLA.


Both light tank types were deployed during the 1971 operations in the eastern and western sector and performed moderately well, but were phased out soon after, giving way to heavier platforms.

Ironically, over four decades later, light tanks are poised to make a comeback once again.

Army: How Red Tape Delayed the Procurement of Lightweight Tanks Until After Ladakh Faceoff

A handful of desultory indigenous attempts were initiated from the 1980s to locally develop a light tank, all regrettably stillborn.

thewire.in

Just wondering if such bureaucratic hurdles) red Taoism will ever get ironed out!! Can the present govt pass an ordnance or a anything to tackle this?

Or will we always depend on last minute Fastrack purchases to fullfill our armed forces' requirements?