India-China 2020 Border conflict

[prasadr14]

Until we start grabbing land somewhere else, the Bat Munchers would keep coming at us..

We need to grow a pair and keep salami slicing in areas they dont expect...

 

[Hellfire]

They surely are by now. They have moved a lot of forces into high-altitude Tibetian plateaus to acclimatize them.

The PLA indeed has had troops in for the same period as Indian troops. Wonder why is it so difficult for people to understand that the basic physiology of a human being is same, irrespective whether a Chinese or an Indian?

We have a schedule of 6 + 4 + 4 days .. depending on altitudes viz Cat 1, Cat 2 or Cat 3. But somehow, Chinese are fools who won't get acclimatized!

And then people wonder why Mr Nehru went bananas and lost a war!

Regarding nuclear deterrence, I have mentioned here earlier, countries with nuclear devices understand the implication of nuclear warfare and MAD. Even if a single nuclear missile finds its way over Delhi or Beijing, it will create a catastrophe on an unimaginable scale.
Hence, the use of nuclear power is seen more like a "mutual suicide", whose threshold of use is extremely high, like the loss of a large amount of territory such that it may threaten the existence of the country itself.

For Lakdah / Aksai Chin, neither India nor China will press the mutual suicide button. Because if you think rationally, the loss of Ladakh or Aksai Chin has no large-scale implication on citizens of any of the country (Just ask yourself, is 3/4th of the India / China ready to be vaporized to protect Ladakh/Aksai Chin?).

So if any of the countries can live for tomorrow, it will choose to do so for another chance of fighting back or just existing.

The nukes. So like the Pakistani tendency to put nukes into every scenario without understanding the implications or means of fighting without nukes with equally devastating implications.

 

[shade]

Until we start grabbing land somewhere else, the Bat Munchers would keep coming at us..

We need to grow a pair and keep salami slicing in areas they dont expect...

Will never happen, fear of the 10 foot Chinaman has been dogging every GoI since '62 and will only get worse as the years pass by.
Also retarded Govt ideology of being the good boi who doesn't break international treaties, rules whatever

 

[Hellfire]

I was intrigued by LOC part because it seems hosting more than 60k+ proly more soldiers in such conditions for such a long duration, assuming it will be the new normal then for years, is just not a practical solution, accounting for all the cost measures etc. Anyway, thanks for the insight, as always.

Exactly. Hence, the cost part.

Refer screenshot posted earlier of some time back wherein I had said that PRC has India exactly where it wants India to be - at the negotiations table.

Irrespective of flurry of statements and 'tests', let there be no mistake - at the end of the day, wars/shiny new war toys/rhetoric does not get a party its votes in a democracy; freebies, matching them with those promised by the opposition - does.

When you have 97% population depending on 3% for living, your choices are limited.

To get the military posture you need to actually fight the enemy, you need to make cuts that directly affects this 97%.

 

[FalconZero]

They get their land grabs even with modi govt in power, only the intensity on land grabs is reduced to some degree.
Perhaps their stunts here may cause a change in the way how GoI deals with the yearly chinese landgrab, or maybe not.
LAC is hot now, next they will appear in the tri-junction that their ghulam Oli and his shabjee-shabjee screeching fellows claim, or Sikkim or Arunachal, AP seems the most promising candidate though for landgrabs, the whole area is mountainous and hard to effectively control/patrol I think.

The chinese are like the rat or lizard that gets in your house, once they are in it is very hard to remove them.

The thing is by strengthening such positions tho they have got some sq km of land but they lost/losing :
1) Biggest market outside china
2) Biggest future market, within the decade we will have a bigger and richer middle class
3) Modi is stressing on decoupling which will eventually benefit India
4) This has shockwave to those who though they could appease batmunchers, now we are focusing more and more on strengthening our forces, modernisation, indigenisation etc. These were moving with a slow pace.
5) Plus, with Corona chan outbreak, and companies looking for alternatives to china, India has good chance to exploit on that.
6) Indo-China relations are into dustbin so there goes any chance of batmunchers profiting off Indians.
7) Again related to corona, we are seeing rise in anti China sentiments all over EU + USA, they are losing their market there too.
Sounds like the worst idea to make an enemy out of 3rd biggest economy, ppp wise, at the time when whole world hates you.
Under scamgrass: It would have been repeat of 2013 and previous incidents with no work regarding 1,2,3,4,5,6....
So this is one thing...

 

[shade]

Exactly. Hence, the cost part.

Refer screenshot posted earlier of some time back wherein I had said that PRC has India exactly where it wants India to be - at the negotiations table.

Irrespective of flurry of statements and 'tests', let there be no mistake - at the end of the day, wars/shiny new war toys/rhetoric does not get a party its votes in a democracy; freebies, matching them with those promised by the opposition - does.

When you have 97% population depending on 3% for living, your choices are limited.

To get the military posture you need to actually fight the enemy, you need to make cuts that directly affects this 97%.

So by when do you expect the build-up on the LAC to recede and go "back to normal" from our side? by March next year possibly?

 

[mist_consecutive]

2-3 brigades aclaimatized are not going to win them any thing.

On nukes you are missing my point actually you are quite generic with your comments; reason best known to you.

As far a skirmish or battle is kept below artillery threshold which requires elbow grease and men on the ground the Chinese are never going to win; winters, summers or spring notwithstanding. Soon they go above that threshold in a haste to win decisively they have to make a call on failing their nuclear deterrence because India will act preemptively; resultant climbing the escalation ladder to nukes will be the only outcome. Not to mention Russians and Americans will be watching them to lose their nukes with glee.

Pardon me, I again could not ascertain what you are exactly trying to say in bold. If my English skills serve me right, you want to say (in simpler words) -
"Soon as China crosses above the threshold of using guns and artillery (and use air force, maybe involve Navy as well as anti-satellite weapons), we will pre-emptively strike them. This will result in both sides escalating to nuclear conflict at last, as both sides escalate to more destructive weapons gradually as well as targetting sensitive targets."

Right?

 

[shade]

The thing is by strengthening such positions tho they have got some sq km of land but they lost/losing :
1) Biggest market outside china
2) Biggest future market, within the decade we will have a bigger and richer middle class
3) Modi is stressing on decoupling which will eventually benefit India
4) This has shockwave to those who though they could appease batmunchers, now we are focusing more and more on strengthening our forces, modernisation, indigenisation etc. These were moving with a slow pace.
5) Plus, with Corona chan outbreak, and companies looking for alternatives to china, India has good chance to exploit on that.
6) Indo-China relations are into dustbin so there goes any chance of batmunchers profiting off Indians.
7) Again related to corona, we are seeing rise in anti China sentiments all over EU + USA, they are losing their market there too.
Sounds like the worst idea to make an enemy out of 3rd biggest economy, ppp wise, at the time when whole world hates you.
Under scamgrass: It would have been repeat of 2013 and previous incidents with no work regarding 1,2,3,4,5,6....
So this is one thing...

How does it matter if the whole world hates them?
The whole world still buys Made in China products irrespective like the robotic consoomers they are.
Even here where do you think the LAC Standoff and Galwan have made a dent in Xiaomeme and Vivo/Oppo/OnePlus sales?
Then you have the PC/Laptop/Servers/Peripherals/Networking market where Made in China products have a 100% share, these products are imported CBU and not even assembled here.
There is also this ching chong owned British brand called MG Motors that is planning to invest in the Indian car market in a big way, taking over plants of defeated players like Ford and Volkswagen.
Startup randus in a while will again be ready with their katoras infront of Chinese VCs and companies for funding.

What we have seen till now is cancellation of Govt contracts that were going to Ching firms, App bans( which are low hanging fruit ) and a informal ban on Huawei ZTE stuff.

Chorgress is a very low bar to top, but people's big expectations from Bhajpa must be tempered with the reality of shrinking economy thanks to the Kung Flu, there's only a very limited set of things that Modi/BJP can do currently to apply the stick to China, maybe in the future this will change, or maybe not.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

LOL.... Taiwan is on fire.

They are doing some gangsta level leg pulling of CCP.

And people are loving it...

 

[Rohan Naik]

Chai neese soldiers

Mao ke pille

 

[tarunraju]

Hello noodles,

 

[Synergy]

simply kill that ba$***d.

 

[cereal killer]

Firstly.

View attachment 62150





Well, I make "educated" guesses after lurking around on Defence Forums (I apparently am so vella that I hop from one forum to another all day around) and am a pretty low paid guy so have to be a bullshit artist (sorry for that)

That is why have posted the screenshots. So that it is amply clear that the path that has been taken was always what was expected & was the prevalent thought at the time. But then, people need confessions from the top man and even if he admits something, he also won't be believed as people will believe what they want to believe at the end of the day.

On topic - Not for the time being; for the time till as such a moment comes where they lose patience and open up a war.

As a Chinese "watcher" (self claimed as my info is purely from DFI & the nukkad chai shop as I apparently know jack ) India, as a thrust for PRC, is done with. Apart from the usual nonsense of videos & PR releases tom toming their infrastructure thrust and shiny toys, PRC has moved on from India as a focus, having achieved their objectives of calling out an Indian 'bluff' (in their view) over both Aksai Chin and GB. The deployment and strengthening of infrastructure on their side is more of - dissuasive (in case India decides to actually launch an attack and 'cost imposing' - for India will need to match and surpass, with greater difficulties on our side due to the topography as compared to their side.

Now, instead, they will fuel the internal dissent and politics and tie down the GoI with it. With WB elections coming up and apparent attempt by BJP to place Ganguly as CM candidate (rumor mills have Anurag Thakur likely moving in to BCCI if not for HM's son), there is going to be enough to distract the decision makers internally.

For the Chinese, even the Taiwan issue is a feint, they are consolidating their 'hold' in two key areas (as per them):

1. Africa - irrespective of reports that do crop up over Chinese loans projecting them in a bad picture, the truth remains that majority of the nations are too poor and have rather despotic regimes in power. These regimes need a mix of weapons (Chinese provide at low cost, lower than any other producer) & soft 'loans' easily accessible to show development, to continue their tenuous hold over power.

2. Eastern Europe and troubled economies of Southern Europe viz Greece, Italy. These are their access to the EEZ and the indirect access to technology that would otherwise take them lot of investment to perfect on their own - even today, Additionally, the little bit of 'influence' these countries bring into the European Union on behalf of PRC, is the added benefit.

The geopolitical ambitions of China are much more than us. So we don't have that kind clout nor enough money to challenge them there.
Our priority so far has been to keep Chinese influence limited in South Asia & IOR as per my limited understanding of Indian policy. How far we have succeeded is a bigger debate.

Earlier Chinese used to get away with literally everything on Indian border.. The only difference this time was it was bigger & India responded somewhat. We have lost some land in the process along North bank of Pangong. But strengthened along south bank.
I guess our priority should be to defend DBO which is strategically crucial & very very vulnerable from both Depsang & Karakoram & supports mechanized warfare. The reports of additional H6 bombers deployment are also there. In the end both armies are in for the haul.. Chinese are getting good idea about harsh winters & mountain warfare. So they will be learning as well. The experience advantage of IA will erode with time. So we need accept the reality & don't commit the same mistakes of Nehru.

 

[Cheran]

They do not need to fight. Please get that fact clear.

We have ended up giving up territory, whether one wants to acknowledge the fact or not.

Territory:-
1) Patrolling access, F4 to F8
2) Patrolling access, Y Junction & PPs beyond

We never showed any haste in confronting the Chinese at the tactical level when the buildup in these areas were going on. Maybe the expectation was that the troops would return to their bases or MEA could solve the issue. So clearly we failed at reading the Chinese intent.

In turn, readjustment done to 39 dominating heights albeit on our own territory.

So what i want to ask is that is it worth to the Chinese in terms of man, material, yuan, economic decoupling, quad etc. just for calling India's "bluff"on POK, GB, Aksai Hind when the claim position on the these remains the same. HM just answered a question that was posed to him in Parliament & the answer was in line with our stated position all these years.

 

[shade]

Territory:-
1) Patrolling access, F4 to F8
2) Patrolling access, Y Junction & PPs beyond

We never showed any haste in confronting the Chinese at the tactical level when the buildup in these areas were going on. Maybe the expectation was that the troops would return to their bases or MEA could solve the issue. So clearly we failed at reading the Chinese intent.

In turn, readjustment done to 39 dominating heights albeit on our own territory.

So what i want to ask is that is it worth to the Chinese in terms of man, material, yuan, economic decoupling, quad etc. just for calling India's "bluff"on POK, GB, Aksai Hind when the claim position on the these remains the same. HM just answered a question that was posed to him in Parliament & the answer was in line with our stated position all these years.

It is, for men they don't care, deaths can be easily covered up, for yuan and economy the amount they spend on salami slicing is peanuts compared to to their US rivalling defense budget.
Keep in mind that they will keep using and abusing this hijda strategy of salami slicing and not fire the first shot, since they think they are probably not ready enough to fight/win a war/absorb the economic impact of the war.
When they are ready though it will come without any warning.

 

[yoggs]

 

[Dessert Storm]

IAF Champion jumpers/divers

 

[fire starter]

Firstly.

View attachment 62150





Well, I make "educated" guesses after lurking around on Defence Forums (I apparently am so vella that I hop from one forum to another all day around) and am a pretty low paid guy so have to be a bullshit artist (sorry for that)

That is why have posted the screenshots. So that it is amply clear that the path that has been taken was always what was expected & was the prevalent thought at the time. But then, people need confessions from the top man and even if he admits something, he also won't be believed as people will believe what they want to believe at the end of the day.

On topic - Not for the time being; for the time till as such a moment comes where they lose patience and open up a war.

As a Chinese "watcher" (self claimed as my info is purely from DFI & the nukkad chai shop as I apparently know jack ) India, as a thrust for PRC, is done with. Apart from the usual nonsense of videos & PR releases tom toming their infrastructure thrust and shiny toys, PRC has moved on from India as a focus, having achieved their objectives of calling out an Indian 'bluff' (in their view) over both Aksai Chin and GB. The deployment and strengthening of infrastructure on their side is more of - dissuasive (in case India decides to actually launch an attack and 'cost imposing' - for India will need to match and surpass, with greater difficulties on our side due to the topography as compared to their side.

Now, instead, they will fuel the internal dissent and politics and tie down the GoI with it. With WB elections coming up and apparent attempt by BJP to place Ganguly as CM candidate (rumor mills have Anurag Thakur likely moving in to BCCI if not for HM's son), there is going to be enough to distract the decision makers internally.

For the Chinese, even the Taiwan issue is a feint, they are consolidating their 'hold' in two key areas (as per them):

1. Africa - irrespective of reports that do crop up over Chinese loans projecting them in a bad picture, the truth remains that majority of the nations are too poor and have rather despotic regimes in power. These regimes need a mix of weapons (Chinese provide at low cost, lower than any other producer) & soft 'loans' easily accessible to show development, to continue their tenuous hold over power.

2. Eastern Europe and troubled economies of Southern Europe viz Greece, Italy. These are their access to the EEZ and the indirect access to technology that would otherwise take them lot of investment to perfect on their own - even today, Additionally, the little bit of 'influence' these countries bring into the European Union on behalf of PRC, is the added benefit.

GB plan is not a bluff it will happen soon porkis will themselves give us chance. Due to covid it was not going to happen so what bluff did they called out?

Chinese live in their own la la land the loss they got is more than the advantages .

 

[DownWithCCP]

GB plan is not a bluff it will happen soon porkis will themselves give us chance. Due to covid it was not going to happen so what bluff did they called out?

Chinese live in their own la la land the loss they got is more than the advantages .

While I agree for most parts with @Hellfire this guy starts taking a complete different track when there is no action along the border, after the capture of strategic heights I remember him talking about a " very likely chinese counter attack, and about preparations being made in the chinese side" I remember him tweeting about how the government is preparing a military plan without any political constraints and complete backing.
And when everything is silent he talks as if we have been defeated completely and that we have no hopes of doing anything.
Just a few observations lol.

 

[fire starter]

While I agree for most parts with @Hellfire this guy starts taking a complete different track when there is no action along the border, after the capture of strategic heights I remember him talking about a " very likely chinese counter attack, and about preparations being made in the chinese side" I remember him tweeting about how the government is preparing a military plan without any political constraints and complete backing.
And when everything is silent he talks as if we have been defeated completely and that we have no hopes of doing anything.
Just a few observations lol.

And all members start meltdown lol.