India-China 2020 Border conflict

[LDev]

the point I think being made is that India should not accept LAC being militarized in that way for years.

either fight a war and establish whatever boundaries come about at the end of it or agree to PLA demands now and establish a boundary.

Given we know PLA doesn't want to establish boundary, fighting a war is the best option and the way to trigger it is to keep reverse salami slicing and calling PLA's bluff.

Correct. My point earlier in response to Bhadra was that skirmishes and localized conflict at the border is never going to solve the border problem. India want's long term peace and that is not going to happen based on the present strategy of "mirror deployments". Fighting the Chinese at the border is like the firemen running from house to house to put out the fire while the person who is setting the fire is always one step ahead. You have to catch the person setting the fire. That necessarily means being able to threaten China from all sides, by land, air and sea, and since India does not have that capability now, it means that India has to re-think it's entire NAM posture and seriously look at entering into some kind of alliance or alliances. That is if India is interested in solving the China problem otherwise it will fester as long as the CCP is running China.

And by the way the border problem would in all likelihood have been present even if the Nationalists under Chiang Kai Shek were in power in Beijing. In 1914 at the Simla conference it was the Nationalist representative who was non committal and did not sign the final document and in the 1930s and 1940s when Nehru met Chiang Kai Shek, the Nationalist leader insisted that friendly relations between China and India were contingent on India recognizing China's suzerainty over Tibet.

 

[Cartel Boss]

I usually stay away from stereotypes. The type of stereotypes that some people on this thread are engaging in is basically nothing more than pandering to a group of Indians who think they are more martial than the others. This has two detrimental effects -- one it divides Indians and two the so called martial tribe begins to think that rest of us "non-martial" people need to do daily aarti of these so called martial people. This is a type of discussion that should never occur on an Indian defense forum. Every Indian whether he is a Teli or a Brahmin or a Baniya or a Jaat or a Rajput or a Nai or a Darjee who enlists to serve in the armed forces is a martial Indian. It is wrong to put a certain group on pedestal while ignoring the sacrifices of other groups.

Let me give you guys a brief history behind this so called martial race theory. For this, I have to take you back in time. India's golden age was during Gupta Empire. The core of this empire was in current day UP & Bihar. Later on it expanded to include entire current day Indian sub-continent. This core of India never co-operated with Britain and constantly created problems for British ambitions in India. For this reason, Brits systematically attacked and degraded this region. However, there were other groups of Indians who were very subservient to Brits and joined British colonial enfranchise. It was this group which served British colonial ambitions in India and was fondly referred to as martial tribes/race by the Brits. This nonsense should have been stopped in 1947.

Security of India is too important to leave in the hands of those who took pride in serving India's colonizers. It is this simple.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Hellfire corroborating the ANI tweet about more peaks

Which six new heights?

 

[HariPrasad-1]

The Chinese will use these helicopters for airborne assault on the heights occupied by the Indian Army. The SH version can carry 26 fully armed troops as well as provide supporting fire. The article I have linked talks via #rajfortyseven talks about the helicopter base at Lhasa being expanded with shelters for 24 helicopters ready and 24 more under construction. Separately there are reports of all new helipads being constructed all across the LAC from Ladakh to Arunachal. It looks like the Chinese strategy will be to use helicopters to insert troops into difficult terrain held by the IA.

#China #PLA #PLAGF aviation expanding #Lhasa heliport&LH brigade. 24 #Mi17V7,hangars have brown camo. Addl 24 larger hangars coming up, airstrip expanded to 1km, 15 buildings for living Accns provide for 2 addl tpt regts lift capability 2 inf bns. More:

Accelerated Lhasa heliport development poses a new threat to India

I don't think that these choppers can be used above 10 to 12 k feet effectively. How can these choppers can carry 26 troops as said in video at the height of conflicts?

 

[LDev]

I don't think that these choppers can be used above 10 to 12 k feet effectively. How can these choppers can carry 26 troops as said in video at the height of conflicts?

Wikipedia says service ceiling is 6000 meters i.e. about 20,000 feet. So I don't think they have any problem inserting troops at 14,000-16,000 feet. The IAF also has about 200+, may not be the sh variant....

 

[omaebakabaka]

Wikipedia says service ceiling is 6000 meters i.e. about 20,000 feet. So I don't think they have any problem inserting troops at 14,000-16,000 feet.

Doesn't that depend on the altitude they take off? Impact will be bit less vs aircraft engines but altitude and temps does impact various things

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Wikipedia says service ceiling is 6000 meters i.e. about 20,000 feet. So I don't think they have any problem inserting troops at 14,000-16,000 feet. The IAF also has about 200+, may not be the sh variant....

14000 ft with what payload? Payload reduces to less than20 pc at this height. We could not use Russian choppers in Kargil and that is why we decided to make ALH.

 

[Bhadra]

Nepali recruitment in IA is a legacy of East india company which continues till today,a relic of colonialism it is sold as that we get great soldiers based on the martial theory of the british white man , recruitment in NE or hinterland can be increased but govt needs to nudge IA to abandon this while you talk about invaders Gorkha troops were biggest collaboraters of them british ,have a right sense of history,Nepal is filled to brim with MSS what is the guarantee a recruit isn't a MSS double agent,man who fights for money will fight for who pays more and quick.

Your perspective on history and Indian Army and Gorkhas is cockade.
The entire Indian Army and that is why entire India was collaborators - Madrasi, Bengali, Sikh, Garhwali, Dogra, Muslims in particular Punjabi Muslims, Rajputs of Ganga Jamuni, Jats, Ahir , Bhunihars - all were collaboarators.

Modern India and her elites are all progeny of collaborators who inherited India from the Colonial masters and are destroying India in the name of ruling it. All Brahmins, high caste people, Mahars or Chamars, every tom dick and harry has inherited colonial thinking, culture, language ways of life, the legal system, transport system, Railways and the Babus from the British.

All your leading intellectual lights of the day - your universities, Colleges, Schools, teachers, journalists, writers, artists etc especially the so-called leftist and liberals are more British and collaborators than the British themselves. Your IAS, IPS, IRS, Constabulary - in fact entire administrative machinery is the biggest collaborator.

Which world do you live in... here if you wish to work in Hindi Films, you need to be a Oxford or Trinity College type English speaker or be Mocked by them like Kangana Ranaut.

 

[Lancer]

Vetting was just an extension to the context if it becomes a dilemma due to Chinese influence. My guess is Oli will ban that in near future if he remains in power. He seems to be doing damage 100 times more than congis to his own country and people.

There are enough mountain men in India too from Garhwal and Kumaon regions if Oli does drive a wedge. It was Kumaon regiment that fought in REzang La.

Oli cannot, and will not be allowed to see that through. Engineering the fall of his Gvt, through exceedingly foul means if necessary - wouldn't exactly be something new for India, especially its intelligence agencies.

And sure, there are plenty of groups that fight at heights, many that are great at it too - but that doesn't really change the level of praise and respect the Gurkhas command - including, crucially, within the Army itself - no greater sign of quality than the respect of fellow soldiers.

They've proven themselves repeatedly on both borders, at the steepest heights (being incredibly physically sturdy and well adjusted to the highest elevations), and further reinforced their reputation w/ the Brits in Afghanistan as well; and in close combat they give absolute hell to even much bigger Pashtuns & Paki Punjabis.

If they were so easily replaceable, or as good/bad as other groups; India wouldn't still be recruiting so many, nor would the Chinese be so bothered by it - even accounting for the geopolitical implications.

 

[Lancer]

Which six new heights?

It's complicated. On one hand, the news story didn't have anything new, the dates and names of heights were the same as the old ones; but Hellfire's comments on it were interesting.

I'm guessing there have been some insertions at other heights/ridges beyond the six that were officially confirmed since he said "Army/Tibetans have been quietly doing good work"

 

[LDev]

14000 ft with what payload? Payload reduces to less than20 pc at this height. We could not use Russian choppers in Kargil and that is why we decided to make ALH.

The article I have linked below from 2015 confirms that MI-17s are used by the IAF upto Siachen base camp which is at an altitude of 16,000 feet to ferry supplies. The MI-17 is not used beyond that height to reach the glacier itself at 22,000 feet.
[BEGIN QUOTE]India has quietly constructed and operationalised an Mi-17 helipad on the Siachen glacier near Kumar post at a height of about 16,000 ft, considerably augmenting the airlift capabilities for troop support and casualty evacuation. This comes 31 years after the Army occupied the icy heights under Operation Meghdoot in 1984.[/END QUOTE]

Helipad in Siachen will help in troop mobilisation

 

[Lancer]

I usually stay away from stereotypes. The type of stereotypes that some people on this thread are engaging in is basically nothing more than pandering to a group of Indians who think they are more martial than the others. This has two detrimental effects -- one it divides Indians and two the so called martial tribe begins to think that rest of us "non-martial" people need to do daily aarti of these so called martial people. This is a type of discussion that should never occur on an Indian defense forum. Every Indian whether he is a Teli or a Brahmin or a Baniya or a Jaat or a Rajput or a Nai or a Darjee who enlists to serve in the armed forces is a martial Indian. It is wrong to put a certain group on pedestal while ignoring the sacrifices of other groups.

Let me give you guys a brief history behind this so called martial race theory. For this, I have to take you back in time. India's golden age was during Gupta Empire. The core of this empire was in current day UP & Bihar. Later on it expanded to include entire current day Indian sub-continent. This core of India never co-operated with Britain and constantly created problems for British ambitions in India. For this reason, Brits systematically attacked and degraded this region. However, there were other groups of Indians who were very subservient to Brits and joined British colonial enfranchise. It was this group which served British colonial ambitions in India and was fondly referred to as martial tribes/race by the Brits. This nonsense should have been stopped in 1947.

Security of India is too important to leave in the hands of those who took pride in serving India's colonizers. It is this simple.

Burying one's head in the sand to try and avoid/tip toe around inconvenient truths never works out in the long run. Better to discuss it openly and honestly.

Anyways, this discussion has long gone off topic from the original, ignorant geopolitical post about cutting Nepalese recruitment in view of current tensions.

 

[Bhadra]

Uh they change half their conscripts every year, right?

If the period of conscription is four years, the mathematical logic would be to change 1/4 conscript every year...

Look at the Majority of nations on the globe where conscription is the National responsibility and military service is mandatory, unlike India where people can be bought and used and thrown to protect your arses while you are ruling over them .... Shiva Sena style..

If the Army goes outside an RSS Sakha or Shiv Sena Camp to recruit them in the Army for Ladakh, I am sure all of them will run away.. OM Puri and Javed Akhtar will be ready to pay and say I am paying you to die for me...

 

[omaebakabaka]

Oli cannot, and will not be allowed to see that through. Engineering the fall of his Gvt, through exceedingly foul means if necessary - wouldn't exactly be something new for India, especially its intelligence agencies.

And sure, there are plenty of groups that fight at heights, many that are great at it too - but that doesn't really change the level of praise and respect the Gurkhas command - including, crucially, within the Army itself - no greater sign of quality than the respect of fellow soldiers.

They've proven themselves repeatedly on both borders, at the steepest heights (being incredibly physically sturdy and well adjusted to the highest elevations), and further reinforced their reputation w/ the Brits in Afghanistan as well; and in close combat they give absolute hell to even much bigger Pashtuns & Paki Punjabis.

If they were so easily replaceable, or as good/bad as other groups; India wouldn't still be recruiting so many, nor would the Chinese be so bothered by it - even accounting for the geopolitical implications.

Well, may be am in minority but I am not impressed with Indian intelligence agencies which let the communist threat from maoist nuisance into political power in Nepal, why should I trust them any more now? So far no signs.....recently things are happening in the anti-India domain more than anything.
No one is speaking less of Gurkhas but a lot of them are from a different country and if that country is anti-India then it does not make sense to recruit from them due to trust issues. Hope it does not get to that.....same as no Muslim regiments were formed in India anymore.
Lots of regiments fought at equal level or even better than gurkhas from India before (different kingdoms) and after British.

 

[LDev]

Security of India is too important to leave in the hands of those who took pride in serving India's colonizers. It is this simple.

On the one hand you do not want to stereotype and then you paint the children and grandchildren of some people who worked in the British Indian Army as suspects in whose hands the security of India cannot be entrusted. What sin have these children and grand children committed?

 

[Tridev123]

Missile warfare.. Now that's an area we definitely need to improve. Both Prithvi & Prahaar are great options.. But I do hope we have the numbers here.. Coz Chinese have big big Armada of SRBMs. It can go either way here. But yes Air force is the deciding factor in all this.

I think that we are quite self sufficient in ballistic missile technology including SRBM.We have moved beyond liquid fuel Prithvi to solid fuelled Prahaar and Shaurya.

But indigenous long range cruise missile development is lagging behind. Though we have the very effective supersonic Brahmos cruise missile we also need subsonic land attack cruise missiles in large numbers.

The Nirbhay or its successor is already too late in coming. Since we have established our own GPS like system in space our indigenous subsonic cruise missiles can take advantage of the system for guidance.

The Pralay is another SRBM which has been specially designed as a counter to the Chinese. Its present status remains unclear.
The DRDO is also working on a 300mm, 120km range MBRL. I am sure that they will succeed as we already have experience in creating the guided Pinaka of 75km range.

 

[Lancer]

Well, may be am in minority but I am not impressed with Indian intelligence agencies which let the communist threat from maoist nuisance into political power in Nepal, why should I trust them any more now? So far no signs.....recently things are happening in the anti-India domain more than anything.
No one is speaking less of Gurkhas but a lot of them are from a different country and if that country is anti-India then it does not make sense to recruit from them due to trust issues. Hope it does not get to that.....same as no Muslim regiments were formed in India anymore.
Lots of regiments fought at equal level or even better than gurkhas from India before (different kingdoms) and after British.

Intel Agencies still ultimately serve under the political leadership. Simple as that.

Again, you and everyone on your side is falling into the same basic trap of "well Nepal is becoming Anti-India." And your solution is slowly cutting ties. That would be incredibly counterproductive and cannot be allowed. The solution to a wayward Nepalese PM is to shake his country up, so that he either comes to his senses or falls out of power - not to leave the country to become a playground of a nearby, inimical superpower. A Nepal completely left to be used by the Chinese against Indian interests will be far worse.

Trust issues, and the Muslim analogy make no sense because

1) There's vetting/background checks to join a service
2) There is nothing inherently or ideologically inimical about Gurkhas or Nepalese towards India the way there is among a significant % of Muslims, there isn't even a religious gap

Rest of your comment is the same old repackaged, insecure stuff. "A lot of others can fight like them, they're nothing special" etc etc, which completely conflicts with history whether it's British Era, more recent or even older, so I'm not really inclined to waste any more time.

 

[omaebakabaka]

I think that we are quite self sufficient in ballistic missile technology including SRBM.We have moved beyond liquid fuel Prithvi to solid fuelled Prahaar and Shaurya.

But indigenous long range cruise missile development is lagging behind. Though we have the very effective supersonic Brahmos cruise missile we also need subsonic land attack cruise missiles in large numbers.

This is why it becomes hard to trust our defence orgs, if one can build a supersonic and claim it as indigenous then logically subsonic should be multitudes easier as tolerance level of everything becomes a bit lower. Bramhos is Onix rebranded for the most part with some software tweaks and come guidance refinements. It is hard to understand delays in subsonic missile designs or manufacturing unless its funding but I think GOI will throw money if they have the product that is viable. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Cheran]

Chai biskoot session has commenced as per reports

 

[omaebakabaka]

Intel Agencies still ultimately serve under the political leadership. Simple as that.

Again, you and everyone on your side is falling into the same basic trap of "well Nepal is becoming Anti-India." And your solution is slowly cutting ties. That would be incredibly counterproductive and cannot be allowed. The solution to a wayward Nepalese PM is to shake his country up, so that he either comes to his senses or falls out of power - not to leave the country to become a playground of a nearby, inimical superpower. A Nepal completely left to be used by the Chinese against Indian interests will be far worse.

Trust issues, and the Muslim analogy make no sense because

1) There's vetting/background checks to join a service
2) There is nothing inherently or ideologically inimical about Gurkhas or Nepalese towards India the way there is among a significant % of Muslims, there isn't even a religious gap

Rest of your comment is the same old repackaged, insecure stuff. "A lot of others can fight like them, they're nothing special" etc etc, which completely conflicts with history whether it's British Era or older, so I'm not really inclined to waste any more time.

Not really, only thing clear from your argument is your hesitation in accepting the reality that Nepal is handed to China by our UPA 1 and 2 on silver plate. They have sent their army to border with Uttarakhand, what more do you need to accept that it is real.....I am 50% sure if Oli is allowed to stay then he will take a stand on gurkhas serving in IA (he will get domestic resistance) but it depends on what his masters make him do.....rest is all your hope on RAW replacing Oli....we will see and i hope that it happens.

Why would IA recruit from Nepal if it becomes a full blown puppet of CCP at which point they will ban that process anyway? For now that does not seem to be the case as lot of gurkhas come from family tradition into IA. Hindus were the number 1 traitors to hindus historically speaking. Every hindu empire lost due to that and the tradition continues....with congis and left. This is to your ideologically different comment....