India-China 2020 Border conflict

[Spindrift]

The only advantage we have over PLA today is that we have battle hardened soldiers
They have better equipment than us.
However that edge in human factor will start decreasing with time.

Their equipment is not battle tested. It's only good on paper. The only modicum of advantage they have is in quantity.

 

[Sanglamorre]

Their equipment is not battle tested. It's only good on paper. The only modicum of advantage they have is in quantity.

I think he means quality of life and life support systems like hyperbaric chambers.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

The only advantage we have over PLA today is that we have battle hardened soldiers
They have better equipment than us.
However that edge in human factor will start decreasing with time.

Not better equipment but more equipment.

Quantity has a Quality of its own said Stalin..proved by Soviets in WW2.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

The only advantage we have over PLA today is that we have battle hardened soldiers
They have better equipment than us.
However that edge in human factor will start decreasing with time.

Not just that. As Bhadra pointed out.. they are far too mechanized for their own good .. especially for mountain warfare...

 

[johnq]

Chinese equipment and soldiers are made for peacetime encroachment on Indian territory. Indian equipment and soldiers are made for war.

 

[Lancer]

Nepali recruitment in IA is a legacy of East india company which continues till today,a relic of colonialism it is sold as that we get great soldiers based on the martial theory of the british white man

You may not like it, but that's irrelevant. Fact is, we ARE getting some of the most courageous, hardy and motivated fighters available in the entire subcontinent (no less a man than Field Marshal Manekshaw believed so) - and arguably the very best of the best for LOC & LAC type terrain/climate.

People can complain against the Martial Race Theory all they want, but it wasn't completely without basis.

govt needs to nudge IA to abandon this while you talk about invaders Gorkha troops were biggest collaboraters of them british

This is a really really dumb can of worms to open. Indian history under the British is filled with native collaborators across the Subcontinent. The less said about it, the better.

have a right sense of history,Nepal is filled to brim with MSS what is the guarantee a recruit isn't a MSS double agent,man who fights for money will fight for who pays more and quick

Quite a few of our people across various branches of service and strata of society are bikau as well. Some get sold for nice bottles of scotch, others spill classified info or betray the country over a piece of p*ssy (the most pathetic ones don't even get laid, they just give everything away in exchange for some sex chats w/ fake Paki accounts)

If one were smart, they would realize that this is actually a two way street; what makes you think India can't infiltrate Nepal and Nepalese society through these ties/engagements? If anything, recruitment of Gurkhas should be expanded, and India needs to more aggressively infiltrate Nepal to exercise control over it in view of Chinese attempts, and pull certain levers of influence like shared religion (Nepalese Royal Family have close ties with Yogi Adityanath's Gorakhnath Math)

 

[etantra]

What pics?

Reports say IA handed over 16 bodies to PLA post Galwan clash... Handed over captives as well.

Was reported IA had pics/video of all this while the troops were ordered to not send out any.

Similarly, IA sees PLA medvac evacuating soldiers from peaks, we can get pics of those?

and on and on...

 

[cereal killer]

You may not like it, but that's irrelevant. Fact is, we ARE getting some of the most courageous, hardy and motivated fighters available in the entire subcontinent - and arguably the very best of the best for LOC & LAC type terrain/climate.

People can complain against the Martial Race Theory all they want, but it wasn't completely without basis.



This is a really really dumb can of worms to open. Indian history under the British is filled with native collaborators across the Subcontinent. The less said about it, the better.



Quite a few of our people across various branches of service and strata of society are bikau as well. Some get sold for nice bottles of scotch, others spill classified info or betray the country over a piece of p*ssy (the most pathetic ones don't even get laid, they just give everything away in exchange for some sex chats w/ fake Paki accounts)

If one were smart, they would realize that this is actually a two way street; what makes you think India can't infiltrate Nepal and Nepalese society through these ties/engagements? If anything, recruitment of Gurkhas should be expanded, and India needs to more aggressively infiltrate Nepal to exercise control over it in view of Chinese attempts, and pull certain levers of influence like shared religion (Nepalese Royal Family have close ties with Yogi Adityanath's Gorakhnath Math)

British surely used Martial race theory as a means to divide people... But that indeed created a unstoppable fighting force. That's why IA still follows that concept. Tried & tested.

 

[bajiraopeshwa]

Can we do first what we are capable of ? Can we for for God's sake protect our sovereignty along the Northern borders and achieve some stability by using military means since 74 year's diplomacy with China has utterly failed in spite of surrendering Tibet and Pakistan and Nepal to China.

Or shall we build a Navy of 500 ships over the next fifty years at the cost of others and then loose our land border as also abandon our dream of bombing Beijing if Chinese Navy by then is 5000 ships.

Let us do what is at hand. Loss in Ladakh is a big loss for a nation that has started looking at itself as the only superpower of the world. I am not interested in the destruction of Beijing. I am interested in protecting our sovereignty against an expansionist rising power. That sovereignty does not lie in SCS but in Tibet and Ladakh.

63% of the budget goes to the army, 18% to the airforce and 13% to the navy. The question is whether some readjustments here can provide better strategic value, not whether one should be done away with.

The only lever we have now of affecting Chinese economic interests is the Malacca choke. This is why China built CPEC and Gwadar and Djibouti - to get a semblance of stability.

India will be under serious threat if it does not dominate its Oceans. Question is not destruction of Beijing as it lies far into the mainland. Question is of stopping Chinese oil in case of war. The same reason why we were preparing to blockade Karachi during the Kargil war.

Also the way to protect sovereignty in Ladakh could be to choke Malacca or even Gwadar.

 

[Lancer]

British surely used Martial race theory as a means to divide people... But that indeed created a unstoppable fighting force. That's why IA still follows that concept. Tried & tested.

Their biases clearly show in some of the classifications/decisions - I've been critical of some such discrepancies myself (recently argued how certain Brahmin groups are absolutely martial - such as Mohyals, Deswals, Marathi Deshashtha and espc. Konkanasthas, and many Bhumihars as well).

But the template was correct (and actually had some basis in the existing social setup of Hindu society). And as you said, the Army still uses it (with a bit of dilution to make the Army more mixed/inclusive).

 

[etantra]

From a purely defensive standpoint the IA is perfectly capable of defensive and tactical offensive operations in Ladakh if it is given a free hand by the political establishment. Which it has been given post Galwan I believe. But any number of tactical victories by either successfully defending present positions or let us say pushing the PLA back to Finger 8 is not going to result in a peaceful border. The LAC will remain heavily militarized for years to come with skirmishes and localized conflicts.

the point I think being made is that India should not accept LAC being militarized in that way for years.

either fight a war and establish whatever boundaries come about at the end of it or agree to PLA demands now and establish a boundary.

Given we know PLA doesn't want to establish boundary, fighting a war is the best option and the way to trigger it is to keep reverse salami slicing and calling PLA's bluff.

 

[garg_bharat]

the point I think being made is that India should not accept LAC being militarized in that way for years.

either fight a war and establish whatever boundaries come about at the end of it or agree to PLA demands now and establish a boundary.

Given we know PLA doesn't want to establish boundary, fighting a war is the best option and the way to trigger it is to keep reverse salami slicing and calling PLA's bluff.

My thinking is India should avoid a war if possible without giving up anything significant.
Once war starts, things will be out of control. Drawing boundaries etc. is irrelevant at that time. Boundaries can change many times in war; and it will result in long term militarization.

 

[omaebakabaka]

You may not like it, but that's irrelevant. Fact is, we ARE getting some of the most courageous, hardy and motivated fighters available in the entire subcontinent (no less a man than Field Marshal Manekshaw believed so) - and arguably the very best of the best for LOC & LAC type terrain/climate.

People can complain against the Martial Race Theory all they want, but it wasn't completely without basis.

I mean no disrespect to Nepalis or gorkhas as we are one people and follow the same belief system but gorkhas are no more or less than any other fighting Indian tribes.....no need to put them on pedestal vs others from rest of India. There is no reason to not recruit them but proper vetting needs to occur if Chinese really do make inroads into Nepal at a deeper level.

 

[garg_bharat]

Their biases clearly show in some of the classifications/decisions - I've been critical of some such discrepancies myself (recently argued how certain Brahmin groups are absolutely martial - such as Mohyals, Deswals, Marathi Deshashtha and espc. Konkanasthas, and many Bhumihars as well).

But the template was correct (and actually had some basis in the existing social setup of Hindu society). And as you said, the Army still uses it (with a bit of dilution to make the Army more mixed/inclusive).

These divisive tendencies are really costing India.

Army should accept all castes. Some of them may not be good soldiers. But their children will be once martial traditions take hold.

Vedic society is based on at least 10% of society being Kshatriya, preferably up to 30%.

 

[prasadr14]

My thinking is India should avoid a war if possible without giving up anything significant.
Once war starts, things will be out of control. Drawing boundaries etc. is irrelevant at that time. Boundaries can change many times in war; and it will result in long term militarization.

opposite view,
We MUST needle China in winter & force them into a war.

Winter war is best for us.
We have advantage in men,
They have advantage in materials....which winter effectively neutralizes...

We should start snipping their soldiers and push them into a conflict.

 

[Lancer]

These divisive tendencies are really costing India.

Army should accept all castes. Some of them may not be good soldiers. But their children will be once martial traditions take hold.

Vedic society is based on at least 10% of society being Kshatriya, preferably up to 30%.

Weird comment, who said the Army doesn't accept all castes? There should be standards though, otherwise the Armed Forces will become like the Public Sector w/ quotas.

If anything, the Army has slightly diluted its quality in favor of being diverse and inclusive by capping recruitment from certain groups.

 

[Lancer]

I mean no disrespect to Nepalis or gorkhas as we are one people and follow the same belief system but gorkhas are no more or less than any other fighting Indian tribes.....no need to put them on pedestal vs others from rest of India. There is no reason to not recruit them but proper vetting needs to occur if Chinese really do make inroads into Nepal at a deeper level.

Another weird comment - nobody said not to vet.

But as for the whole artificial "they're just as good/bad as anyone else" - nah, that's simply bogus. They're among the top of the top, and in mountain warfare, I'd go with Gurkhas ten times out of ten. Ask officers, especially ones that served with them or encountered them, and they'll usually tell you the same.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Another weird comment - nobody said not to vet.

But as for the whole artificial "they're just as good/bad as anyone else" - nah, that's simply bogus. They're among the top of the top, and in mountain warfare, I'd go with Gurkhas ten times out of ten. Ask officers, especially ones that served with them or encountered them, and they'll usually tell you the same.

Vetting was just an extension to the context if it becomes a dilemma due to Chinese influence. My guess is Oli will ban that in near future if he remains in power. He seems to be doing damage 100 times more than congis to his own country and people.

There are enough mountain men in India too from Garhwal and Kumaon regions if Oli does drive a wedge. It was Kumaon regiment that fought in REzang La.

 

[bajiraopeshwa]

the point I think being made is that India should not accept LAC being militarized in that way for years.

either fight a war and establish whatever boundaries come about at the end of it or agree to PLA demands now and establish a boundary.

Given we know PLA doesn't want to establish boundary, fighting a war is the best option and the way to trigger it is to keep reverse salami slicing and calling PLA's bluff.

If the LAC is militarized it opens up lots of options for reverse salami.

The basis of the PLA behavior and assumption that IA wont salami slice was that they had the infra to quickly mobilize and call the shots on the LAC. With a permanent militarization and improved infra on our side, that advantage of PLA has evaporated.

Reverse salami should be the norm for IA going forward

 

[bajiraopeshwa]

opposite view,
We MUST needle China in winter & force them into a war.

Winter war is best for us.
We have advantage in men,
They have advantage in materials....which winter effectively neutralizes...

We should start snipping their soldiers and push them into a conflict.

lAC being militarized has its costs but has its advantages also. The Chinese advantage of better infrastructure quickly vanishes when the LAC is permanently militarized. Also forces the Chinese into mountain warfare for which they may not be genetically equipped (like the Tibetans are to rareified air).

My reading is that the Chinese will not like us staying on LAC for long because it pours water on their superpower status. They will seek a fight in October. IA sending additional division is to make them rethink and also to see us through till the winter comes. If they dont attack before winter, they become a laughing stock. If they go back now also they become a laughing stock. Hence their only option is to attack. But this carries heavy risks for them.