India-China 2020 Border conflict

sachincba

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If the period of conscription is four years, the mathematical logic would be to change 1/4 conscript every year...

Look at the Majority of nations on the globe where conscription is the National responsibility and military service is mandatory, unlike India where people can be bought and used and thrown to protect your arses while you are ruling over them .... Shiva Sena style..

If the Army goes outside an RSS Sakha or Shiv Sena Camp to recruit them in the Army for Ladakh, I am sure all of them will run away.. OM Puri and Javed Akhtar will be ready to pay and say I am paying you to die for me...
I don't think there is any shortage of jawans for recruitment in the army. I am from Bihar and people are crazy for a job in military in villages.
 

bajiraopeshwa

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As the commanders meet today, was wondering what India really wants and what negotiations would be.

1. India could take a maximalist position and refuse to withdraw citing threat to DBO, Chushul etc. Once bitten twice shy. Tell the Chinese we dont trust you anymore - lets each stay on the LAC peacefully till Indian border infra is done and we have totally secured DBO and Chushul. We dont have to do this explicitly but keep on prolonging the discussions while strengthening our positions on the ground.

2. Agree to mutual withdrawal at certain places but not on the heights we control

3. Agree mutually to withdraw to pre-April positions

4. Agree to withdraw only after the borders are delineated to our satisfaction

Whatever happens, relations are irretrievably fractured now. Or maybe they were already badly fractured and the standoff is just the outcome.
 

Sanglamorre

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That sounds more like some peoples' deep seated insecurities & complexes coming to the fore than anything else.

We come here to discuss war, killing and violence; and yet some people get their panties in a twist over a complicated topic and would rather hide from it than discuss it.
No man. To be direct, people peddling that probably belong to one of these 'martial races' and are having an identity crisis when people are saying no, it isn't an actual thing anymore. That's why some do the whole parampara, pratishtha, anushshan type logic. They are personally invested in superiority of martial classes.

I am not. I'm fervently against any Indians considering themselves superior to any other Indians based on race, class etc. We go down that rabbit hole and we end up with Bengalis making fun of others or wondering themselves intellectually superior, something I have hated about my community.

There's nothing to hide from. Martial Race theory is junk, as the Indo-Pakistani wars have shown. There's nothing to discuss because bullets kill 10,000 year old martial race and a farmer conscript at the same rate these days. Modern armies have specifically evolved around this.
 

Bhadra

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The best way is to create more regiments from areas least represented in the Army. I am OK with regimental system as soldier is more comfortable in it. But there are large areas of India which have fairly low representation in Army.

Army = Political power

The above formula has held for ages.
There is no area in India that has no adequate representation in the Army except for Gujrat. Though Gujrati Rajputs have some representation in officers corps.

You name it and they are there including from Andaman and Nicobar. They have Tibatans, Tribal of Arunachal Pradesh. Maiti Rajputs and even Kukis of Manipur has a very large presence in Officers corps. Bengalis are full in Medical Corps and logistics. There are Orriyas. Half of Bihar Regiments is Adivasis of Bihar, Chattisgarh, Jharkhand. Three very large regiments are composed of Scheduled castes. Army is full of Keralites, Koorgies, kannada, Telgus and Telangana people. Kayamkhani Mulmans and Meena of Rajasthan has adequate representation. Two large regiments is full of J&K Muslims who make sturdy soldiers..

Baniyas are sprinkled all over in many regiments and officer corps specially IAF.

You name it and I will tell you..... it is a truly national institution. Punjab and Maharastra are two states who fight tooth and nail for their quota in the Armed Forces. Nothing less than Baba Bhim Rao Ambedkar pleaded time and again to prove how loyal and good soldiers are those from Maratha scheduled caste in Mahar Regiment.
 

etantra

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As the commanders meet today, was wondering what India really wants and what negotiations would be.

1. India could take a maximalist position and refuse to withdraw citing threat to DBO, Chushul etc. Once bitten twice shy. Tell the Chinese we dont trust you anymore - lets each stay on the LAC peacefully till Indian border infra is done and we have totally secured DBO and Chushul. We dont have to do this explicitly but keep on prolonging the discussions while strengthening our positions on the ground.

2. Agree to mutual withdrawal at certain places but not on the heights we control

3. Agree mutually to withdraw to pre-April positions

4. Agree to withdraw only after the borders are delineated to our satisfaction

Whatever happens, relations are irretrievably fractured now. Or maybe they were already badly fractured and the standoff is just the outcome.
pre-april positions means patrolling rights till F8( and similar agreements in other areas). That was the position in theory..

if we get that or 4, I am happy if all withdraw back( verifiably) and India is free to do its infra work.
 

Sanglamorre

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Quite a few of the regiments which fought in those wars from the Indian side, and won, were themselves from those races.

Where the Pakis went wrong was in taking the Martial Races Template and copy pasting it onto entire religions, and just self-deluding with things like "1 of us is 10 of them, their morale won't survive one blow" etc.

You still have to plan and fight properly, and accord the enemy a certain amount of respect.



This shows an incorrect reading of the Theory itself (I'm talking about the logical one, not the British one that had an active agenda) - many martial races are "Farmer Conscripts" themselves.


The point is, some groups have long distinguished traditions and cultures of warfare, use & ownership of weapons, and feel that additional push of holding up the pride and honor of their ancestors ("My last 10 gens died fighting, how can I be the one that breaks the chain and runs away"?).

Trying to hide from that in order to be overly politically correct is just dumb and pointless. That of course doesn't mean that people from such groups should consider themselves as superior human beings, or don't show the requisite respect to quality soldiers who meet the standards from other backgrounds - but trying to act like there's no such thing is just the opposite side of the same coin.
No, I have spoken on those lines itself.

The martial race culture of warfare and tradition are based on sword and spear style of warfare. Back then it was important because weapons like these require long training time. So, unless the warskills and training and mindset is instilled in them via traditions from a young age, it won't work.

But, modern armies are built on how quickly they can be trained. Guns broke history. No matter how skilled one is in blades, guns will win. And one doesn't need years to train well to shoot guns and become somewhat proficient. So, those traditions become much less important.

The only thing that still has any relevance from that theory is the traditional imprinting to hold up a fighting tradition. Even among that, the acceptance of loss factor has been blunted by the era of relative peace.

The holding up of fighting tradition still works for now though, that I agree. But in defence of nation, most will fight tbh.
 

cereal killer

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This 'martial race' peddling needs to stop. This is the same bs that made Pakis think 2 Muslim= 10 Hindu crap.

If tomorrow Oli blocks Gorkha recruitment and recalls back all Gorkhas, I guess large parts of IA will just roll over in case there's a battle with them since MArTiAL RAcE OmG SO PoWeRFUL So SuPErIOR. Like the other poster said, sounds like a contrived way to say other 'non-martial' race Indians should do aarti of martial race ones.

It made sense back in days of swords, spears and early guns because training times were too long and cultures with martial influences were more inclined to teach their children these from birth or were ready to accept massive sacrifices in war.

Not anymore the case these days when training time has been drastically cut short due to modern guns and relative era of peace. Martial to non-martial, everyone did disgraceful rona dhona in case of Abhinandan.

Just so we're clear this martial race so stronk mindset is also what fuels a lot of hill tribe animosity/disdain for plainsmen and is absolutely the crux of Nepali misunderstanding that our army is unable to function properly without them and gives them the itch to try use that as leverage once a while.

Current Nepal is not the Hindu Kingdom we had historical relations with. We already get so many intrusions of terrorists and agent via Nepal route. If push comes to shove we indeed have to rethink our relation with Nepal. You can't have access to the army from a country that has fallen to Chinese (if it happens) and free entry and easy citizenship.

Martial race or not, we have to defend our lands from would be invaders. Be it Chinese, or Chinese colonised Nepalis in future.
There ain't a shadow of doubt what Gorkhas are capable of.. But even if we stop recruitment from Nepal there's a sizeable amount of gorkha population in states like Sikkim & other neighbouring states. So that should not be a issue. If Nepal is hell bent to break ties then just stop ex Gorkha soldiers pensions... Let's see how much they can take.
 

Knowitall

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There ain't a shadow of doubt what Gorkhas are capable of.. But even if we stop recruitment from Nepal there's a sizeable amount of gorkha population in states like Sikkim & other neighbouring states. So that should not be a issue. If Nepal is hell bent to break ties then just stop ex Gorkha soldiers pensions... Let's see how much they can take.
I was thinking the same thing we have got enough for khas in India itself.

This shouldn't be much of a problem.
 

Bhadra

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I don't think there is any shortage of jawans for recruitment in the army. I am from Bihar and people are crazy for a job in military in villages.
What I am saying is that the elite ruling class of India is just not interested in joining the profession of Arms... There is no Veer Bhogya Vansindhara is India ... It is pen pusher cowarad Bhogya Vasundhara...

If you offer job of a peon and job of a soldier to a man he will go in for peon...

Do you have any contrary view..
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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Machines matter more than men in 21st century That’s the reason why USA has strongest millitary in the world we should focus on developing a millitary industrial complex like US
A mig21 can’t kill a F22 raptor no matter how well trained and to what race the mig21 pilot belongs to
 

Lancer

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The martial race culture of warfare and tradition are based on sword and spear style of warfare. Back then it was important because weapons like these require long training time. So, unless the warskills and training and mindset is instilled in them via traditions from a young age, it won't work.

But, modern armies are built on how quickly they can be trained. Guns broke history. No matter how skilled one is in blades, guns will win. And one doesn't need years to train well to shoot guns and become somewhat proficient. So, those traditions become much less important.
Then you're wrong. Even looking past various inaccuracies in your assertion (look at how much of Kargil was close quarter combat); gun culture is much stronger among such groups.

People can try to tiptoe around it all the way, but even in a changing world, the central wisdom and accuracy of the template still holds - which is why even the Army didn't screw with it too much.

The only thing that still has any relevance from that theory is the traditional imprinting to hold up a fighting tradition. Even among that, the acceptance of loss factor has been blunted by the era of relative peace.
Acceptance of loss is still much greater among such communities, admit it or not. People talk a lot about "Paltan ki Izzat" - and it's a key aspect by all means - but for some reason they're afraid (due to political over-correctness) to extend the same logic to the "izzat" of communities/areas with long military traditions + families with long military traditions.
 

Lancer

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Small sorry note to Mods (not for my views, but for the unintentional derailment):

I didn't start the whole Martial-Non Martial discussion, I was only addressing a post saying that we should cut Gurkha recruitment and that they're nothing special/just ordinary and easily replaceable soldiers.

From there things spiraled to the current discussion (though I must say, it's been all civil so far). Of course, once the discussion began I couldn't just not respond.

But I'll be trying to draw down the discussion from my end now.
 

Knowitall

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I usually stay away from stereotypes. The type of stereotypes that some people on this thread are engaging in is basically nothing more than pandering to a group of Indians who think they are more martial than the others. This has two detrimental effects -- one it divides Indians and two the so called martial tribe begins to think that rest of us "non-martial" people need to do daily aarti of these so called martial people. This is a type of discussion that should never occur on an Indian defense forum. Every Indian whether he is a Teli or a Brahmin or a Baniya or a Jaat or a Rajput or a Nai or a Darjee who enlists to serve in the armed forces is a martial Indian. It is wrong to put a certain group on pedestal while ignoring the sacrifices of other groups.

Let me give you guys a brief history behind this so called martial race theory. For this, I have to take you back in time. India's golden age was during Gupta Empire. The core of this empire was in current day UP & Bihar. Later on it expanded to include entire current day Indian sub-continent. This core of India never co-operated with Britain and constantly created problems for British ambitions in India. For this reason, Brits systematically attacked and degraded this region. However, there were other groups of Indians who were very subservient to Brits and joined British colonial enfranchise. It was this group which served British colonial ambitions in India and was fondly referred to as martial tribes/race by the Brits. This nonsense should have been stopped in 1947.

Security of India is too important to leave in the hands of those who took pride in serving India's colonizers. It is this simple.
If this martial race is so good why did they end up serving the british so easily.

Acting more like hired mercenaries even today.

All this hype is the result of british bullshitery that should have been along with various other british institutions discarded and dissolved and this so called martial race along with the british indian army should have been hung by the noose once we had achieved independence.
 
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Bhadra

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Talk at Moldo Toaday...

Were the Operations South and North of Penang Tso by IA were seemingly carried out keeping in mind the diplomatic fall outs ?
Ceratinlt seems the answer is yes.
Not occupying Black Top and Helmet Top seems to be a deliberate decision to avoid being accused of crossing the LAC and thereby fall into the Chinese trap of withdrawing from ares that fall within our ares of LAC. .

Hence the main focus of Indian negotiation will be LAC - Restore the LAC as on 01 Apr 2020.

That is Chinese must vacate all areas that they have occupied across Indian perception of Lac.

That is -
Chinese to vacate Finger 4 (forget Finger 8)
Chinese to withdraw from Gogra and Hot Spring from areas ahead of LAC without effecting Indian positions on LAC.
Chinese to withdraw from Areas ahead of Depsang and not to block Indian patrols at Y junction.

These are achievable and will not affect the respective position of both.

Indian position is restore LAC...
Chinese position as always - LAC is where they are... It is our way or highway...
 

cereal killer

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If this martial race is so good why did they end up becoming british slaves so easily.

Acting more like hired mercenaries even today.

All this hype is the result of british bullshitery that should have been along with various other british institutions discarded and dissolved and this so called martial race along with the british indian army should have been hung by the noose once we had achieved independence.
That's a long & OT answer.. So I'd just put it this way. Common people in India were sick & tired of oppressive muslim rule & even more constant devastating invasions.. Not saying British were any better but at least invasions stopped.. Country was more secured of external threats... Perhaps only after Mauryan rule this happened.. Even in Gupta rule.. The Huns raids used to devastating for common folks.

Last line is uncalled for... Many of them gave up their lives in defending Kashmir from Pakistan & fought them for a year in 1947-48 so please don't disrespect them.
 

Haldilal

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Ya'll Nibbiars India-China talks to have 2 Lt Gen officers. -key officer will be Lt General PGK Menon who will also be part of this. -Good friend with Chinese General Li Xi Zhong . The both were part of BPM - had good coordination earlier also with Mlecchas General.
 

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