India-China 2020 Border conflict

[ezsasa]

Nah, sirji they were doing as usual there capitalist thing.
The video is not from China then from where? And why our American friend here cannot point another language.
Now I am getting curious, it happens rare, since I pseudo left this place.
I will now watch that video again and again.

AFAIK PLA uses FN-6, the one in the video is igla.

FN-6 MANPADS man portable air defense missile system data | China Chinese army missile systems vehicles | Chinese China army military equipment armoured UK

FN-6 MANPADS man portable air defense missile system technical data specifications pictures video intelligence China Chinese army defense industry technology

www.armyrecognition.com

 

[etantra]

Indian Army operations in Ladakh this season has proved certain things;

* That Indian Army is capable of controlling information flow from the battleground. It is no more Bombay attack scene or Kargil Fiascos. Many journalists are not able to pass information or rather sell information to the other side.

* It has very badly exposed the ability of OSINT to manipulate and control information of the battle area. It has exposed chinks in satellite imagery technology as available in the public domain. PP14 and Galwan proved that beyond doubt and now Black Top is troubling the OSINT horribly. This aspect has burnt holes in the credibility of many jumpstarts like Shukla and Mitra Ayyars etc.

* That Infantry remains the arm of decision and no amount of mechanization, light tanks, motorized forces can substitute it, especially in mountains.

* If it was a testbed for testing Chinese Mechanised and Motorised Infantry Divisions, it can be considered as a failure so far.

* That in spite of all modernization, mechanization and restructuring leadership training is a battle-winning factor. The Chinese leadership tendency to fall back to mass waves and faith in share numbers continues to be their dominant military culture. They have not overcome the Chinese PLA guerrilla mindset and the culture of crows carrying political commissars.

* That Chinese are most untrustworthy and treacherous people not cable of keeping agreements or treaties.

* That the shots in the Chinese power structure are called by PLA rather than any diplomat or political leader and PLA has a much stronger hold over the Chinese power system than one would like to believe.

* That PLA is indeed facing difficulties in remaining and operating in High Altitude areas of Tibet, especially in difficult mountains. So far Indian MEA had been saving them by entering into unfavorable agreements even against professional advice.

Good summary,

Disagree with last line.. I think MEA has been letting them save face so they can take it.. latest talks got cancelled and that is a signal too

 

[etantra]

tl;dr summary: If India doesn't formalize Quad, a 1962-scale defeat is very likely. Moscow is dissuading Delhi from entering the Quad. Moscow must be having something on Modi (carrots such as Afghanistan mining access or sticks such as killswitching Russian hardware), to dissuade him from joining Quad. The Chinese calculation is Modi will be fed enough NAMardgi coolaid that he'll try to fight China alone. And Beijing is counting on it.

Beijing has been cucked in the South China Sea by America's 100,000-ton BBCs, and is desperately looking for a military victory against a formidable (read: nuclear armed) opponent, before 2021 (CCP centenary year), so Xi's pee stain on the Great Hall of the People is indelible. Xi would have had his glory in 2021 if Jiang Zemin didn't spoil his plans with COVID-19 (while killing 1 million people around the world and wiping $10 trillion in global wealth). An Indian capitulation against the PLA now, will make China the undisputed leader of the Himalayan region.

Quad is the key. Quad is how India ensures 2021 ends in a disaster for Xi, the CCP corrects itself through its usual blood sweat and tears; and the rest of the world stops taking collateral damage for Beijing's internal politics.

Now you know why the west is increasingly hostile toward the CCP. It's the world's largest single political party, in which internal disputes play out on a global scale. And with China's growing economic clout, rival factions within the CCP will start waging proxy-wars involving other nations. In a democratic system, local elections contain much of these disputes. It will be a shit show.

India must win or the world is fucked.

What happenned to your afghan mining rights theory.. I was LMAO when I read that as I lurked here.

Still not sure if you were trolling or believe it

 

[etantra]

There is no way China can inflict any meaningful defeat on India in Ladakh. But, the problem is the entire cost of stopping China and punching it back will fall on India..If we are part of Quad, the costs and burdens will be shared in a war against China,, with the attendant benefits

and if Russia can't talk sense into China, then SCo fails and QUAD it is..

It is in Russia interest to keep India close even when it is part of QUAD

 

[etantra]

As it happened:-

Russia is applying pressure on India to not turn quad into a military alliance or accept australia.

This was pretty much expected as russia wouldn't want a partner or you could say a customer like India moving into the US zone of influence.

This has once again shown everyone in India today how dangerous it is to buy your national security from someone else.

Today we are forced to take the whim's and nonsense of others into consideration because they hold the key to our security.

I can't even blame russia for this they are doing this for their intrest and they have every right to do so.

We were foolish enough to do this then we must also suffer the consequences.

I hope atleast now GOI will understand the situation we are in. China is at our throats and we still can't get quad because our hands are tied.

And I do hope that we don't show the stupidity of moving from russian platforms to US platforms.

Let me make it very clear russia US french no one should be given a priority we seriously need to be independent atleast in this sector.

what stupidity is this.. extrapolating from a russian query to breakdown of relationship & STOp to weapons support.

Are you out of your mind. It is russia's right to try to persuade us.

It is our right to tell them to f&^% off if they can't force China to behave properly.

Russians have proved to be reliable weapons support, stop trying to play the US side.

 

[Sahil08031991]

and if Russia can't talk sense into China, then SCo fails and QUAD it is..

It is in Russia interest to keep India close even when it is part of QUAD

more inputs on this by Major General Harsha Kakar

 

[Dessert Storm]

Good summary,

Disagree with last line.. I think MEA has been letting them save face so they can take it.. latest talks got cancelled and that is a signal too

You got the timeline on the last line wrong. 'So far Indian MEA had been saving....' surely was a reference to the MEA approach before the Galwan beating of the Chinese.

 

[Indrajit]

A fantastic piece of analysis by Rohit Vats(https://mobile.twitter.com/kesaridhwaj). A must watch.

 

[tarunraju]

What happenned to your afghan mining rights theory.. I was LMAO when I read that as I lurked here.

Still not sure if you were trolling or believe it

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Access to Afghan roads in control of the Taliban warlords in Beijing's pocket is essentially China offering India a piece of the Afghan resources pie in exchange for bending over in Ladakh (their version of 'peace'). Moscow is midwifing the deal.

 

[Flying Dagger]

US signs defence pact with Maldives

US signs defence pact with Maldives

The agreement is being as a timely signal to China, when Indian and Chinese soldiers are locked in a stand-off at the Line of Actual Control in Ladakh.

indianexpress.com

Oh Well! Now another defence deal with Srilanka will ensure china is kicked out of the IO Region

Not a good one Maldives should have been totally left for us to take care of. We can anyday over run it if they try to be a problem for us.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

I was referring to Quad taking shape as a military alliance.. Its an aspiration. Right now its just talks at the diplomatic level.. Although at the bilateral and trilateral level there have been militarily excercises and intelligence sharing..

Even if quad is taking place as an military alliance the onus on land forces and to an extent air force falls on India to modernise. The quad military alliance in all likelihood would only take place in naval arena. India has to stand on her own. There is no question or doubt in that nor the quad is sending air force to northern borders. Without training on bombing on the Himalayas it would be more of an liability than help.

 

[LDev]

Russians have proved to be reliable weapons support, stop trying to play the US side.

And yes the problem is that the Russians are reliable weapons suppliers to both sides. China and India. So they give India China the SU-27, then they give India the SU-30K and the give China the SU-30MKK then they help India upgrade to the SU-30MKI and then they give China the SU-35. And they provide India help with the Arihant nuclear reactor and lease India an Akula submarine and they give China the S-300 and then the S-400 SAMs and then they give India the S-400 and then they let China make copies of the SU-27, SU-30 and S-300. And then they build an aircraft carrier for India but they also give technical support to China for it to build it's own aircraft carrier. So both sides know everything about the strengths and weaknesses of the other sides weapons because they both operate the same weapons. Only difference is that the Chinese are further up developing their own variants of these Russians weapon platforms vs India. Nice going if you are a Russkie. Very reliable way of making money.

 

[maximus777]

Even if quad is taking place as an military alliance the onus on land forces and to an extent air force falls on India to modernise. The quad military alliance in all likelihood would only take place in naval arena. India has to stand on her own. There is no question or doubt in that nor the quad is sending air force to northern borders. Without training on bombing on the Himalayas it would be more of an liability than help.

Naval help would suffice as India can stand its own in the mountains. A few rounds of F-35 raids on the Han east coast from CBGs will divert most of their attention including the best hardware which will provide the much needed respite in Ladakh and rest of the LAC. And if PLA shipping can be choked in the IOR and SCS, we will have them by their bat nuts.

 

[omaebakabaka]

And yes the problem is that the Russians are reliable weapons suppliers to both sides. China and India. So they give India China the SU-27, then they give India the SU-30K and the give China the SU-30MKK then they help India upgrade to the SU-30MKI and then they give China the SU-35. And they provide India help with the Arihant nuclear reactor and lease India an Akula submarine and they give China the S-300 and then the S-400 SAMs and then they give India the S-400 and then they let China make copies of the SU-27, SU-30 and S-300. Nice going if you are a Russkie. Very reliable way of making money.

It is the west that made China the new bully with unrestrained tech transfer......whats your point? Israel or west replacing Russia is no better atleast they somewhat proved time and again. Domestic MIC is the only way out....tactically align with US and buy their equipment based on US vs China tug of war and also US equipment is great.....no need to break any bridges with a military superpower like Russia. Russia always helped its commie buddy except around the time after Sov-Sino conflict. India does not take sides, why should we expect anyone else to be mutually exclusive to us? Case in point, why couldn't we buddy up with US in Afghanistan after 9/11, it was in our interest and a pressure point on Pakistan but we always remain indecisive....no risk no reward.

 

[Bhadra]

As it happened:-

Russia is applying pressure on India to not turn quad into a military alliance or accept australia.

This was pretty much expected as russia wouldn't want a partner or you could say a customer like India moving into the US zone of influence.

This has once again shown everyone in India today how dangerous it is to buy your national security from someone else.

Today we are forced to take the whim's and nonsense of others into consideration because they hold the key to our security.

I can't even blame russia for this they are doing this for their intrest and they have every right to do so.

We were foolish enough to do this then we must also suffer the consequences.

I hope atleast now GOI will understand the situation we are in. China is at our throats and we still can't get quad because our hands are tied.

And I do hope that we don't show the stupidity of moving from Russian platforms to US platforms.

Let me make it very clear russia US french no one should be given a priority we seriously need to be independent atleast in this sector.

You mean our OFB and DRDO are hidden Russian, Israeli and French agents who are paid to delay and sabotage development and manufacturing of much-required defence arms. ammunition and equipment.

Why otherwise, for example, should DRDO fail to develop MPATGM over 60 years and force IA to import it from these countries? Why should they deliberately not make APFSDS to facilitate import?

 

[LDev]

It is the west that made China the new bully with unrestrained tech transfer......whats your point? Israel or west replacing Russia is no better atleast they somewhat proved time and again. Domestic MIC is the only way out....tactically align with US and buy their equipment based on US vs China tug of war and also US equipment is great.....no need to break any bridges with a military superpower like Russia. Russia always helped its commie buddy except around the time after Sov-Sino conflict. India does not take sides, why should we expect anyone else to be mutually exclusive to us?

Is non alignment some kind of religion? Even China was a junior partner to the USSR and then the US against Russia. They got what they wanted out of both partnerships. Which major power in the world today has got what it wanted without being a partner with somebody? And yes, the West made China what it was. But China did not sit around doing nothing. They borrowed and stole and got to where they are. If Indian DPSUs were competent India should have been among the foremost builders of fighter aircraft in the world. The HF-24 was built when China was importing Mig-15s from the USSR and then Kurt Tank left India and what happened? Logically a country that built a close to supersonic fighter in the 1960s, only let down because of an engine should have logically by now been a global force in fighter aircraft design and manufacture.

Humans respond to both a carrot and a stick. Unfortunately in Indian DPSUs there is neither a carrot nor a stick. In China if people do not work at Shenyang Aircraft Corporation that makes the J-11D copy of the SU-30, you think that Xi JinPing will let them live? On the other hand if there are outstanding performers they will have privileged positions and perks as senior CCP members. What happens to a lazy worker in HAL? Can they be fired or even disciplined? Not likely, they will be protected by the unions. And you expect a world class domestic aircraft manufacturing industry in India and non alignment with the present state of affairs?

 

[Destrius]

US, Maldives sign defence cooperation deal to counter China

The Indo-Pacific is a biogeographic region of Earth’s seas, comprising the tropical waters of the Indian Ocean, the western and central Pacific Ocean.

www.google.com

Somewhat off-topic but while I'm all in favor of cooperation between America and India against China. I don't feel comfortable with America having bilateral defence cooperation with countries in our backyard. We already have a logistics pact with America and India can provide for the Maldives security without outside assistance. I don't think these developments are good for our long-term interests.

 

[etantra]

And yes the problem is that the Russians are reliable weapons suppliers to both sides. China and India. So they give India China the SU-27, then they give India the SU-30K and the give China the SU-30MKK then they help India upgrade to the SU-30MKI and then they give China the SU-35. And they provide India help with the Arihant nuclear reactor and lease India an Akula submarine and they give China the S-300 and then the S-400 SAMs and then they give India the S-400 and then they let China make copies of the SU-27, SU-30 and S-300. And then they build an aircraft carrier for India but they also give technical support to China for it to build it's own aircraft carrier. So both sides know everything about the strengths and weaknesses of the other sides weapons because they both operate the same weapons. Only difference is that the Chinese are further up developing their own variants of these Russians weapon platforms vs India. Nice going if you are a Russkie. Very reliable way of making money.

India can highlight that and explain why we are joining QUAD while also playing in SCO or whatever grouping Russia plays in.

FYI, russian sales to China is just for money and is at low levels given the risks..

India can always point to Russiagiving in to US pressure during Yeltsin times on Cyrogenic engines as well.

EAM is well versed in these games and has clearly said India will play a game of convergance.. Heeven wrote a book on it.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Is non alignment some kind of religion? Even China was a junior partner to the USSR and then the US against Russia. They got what they wanted out of both partnerships. Which major power in the world today has got what it wanted without being a partner with somebody? And yes, the West made China what it was. But China did not sit around doing nothing. They borrowed and stole and got to where they are.

You are correct, bitching about Russia selling arms to China is pointless and we can't do much other than pray that our high valued customer status acts as a deterrent or Russians cautuios about creating a monster on their border but you can blame western sanctions for its closeness to China now. You are right on, most evils and impotency goes back to congis and their policies with NAM one of them.....

 

[etantra]

US, Maldives sign defence cooperation deal to counter China

The Indo-Pacific is a biogeographic region of Earth’s seas, comprising the tropical waters of the Indian Ocean, the western and central Pacific Ocean.

www.google.com

Somewhat off-topic but while I'm all in favor of cooperation between America and India against China. I don't feel comfortable with America having bilateral defence cooperation with countries in our backyard. We already have a logistics pact with America and India can provide for the Maldives security without outside assistance. I don't think these developments are good for our long-term interests.

They are not good news but part of the deal India has been forced into given the Chinese moves. US will know that reduces trust to some extent on their motives.