IAF MiG-21 shoots down Pakistani F-16

[Srinivas_K]

The problem here is if the IAF came out and made public a minute by minute sequence of the ecounter. would be fantastic. I would be more inclined to believe the IAF than the PAF-fact(not because of patriotism or anything, but the sheer fact of historical accurate reporting).

Then again, I do not know if that would be allowed

But question is how did the F-16's get a lock and fox fire multiple AMRAAM's? Why weren't our MKI's able to respond with our missiles? As soon as paf entered Indian airspace, we reserve the right to shoot them down if I'm not mistaken. Or did the PAF lock on to our MKI's inside PAF airspace? I still don't have the whole picture.

when you are in defensive mode, the attacker chooses the place and time. They chose the right moment and released payload and when IAF fighter are regrouping they did a u turn and headed towards Pakistan.

 

[Games Goblin]

Pakistan Attempted Balakot-like Air Strikes in India but Failed: Report

The Pakistani Air Force, reportedly, with its package of more than 20 planes, led by the American F-16s along with French Mirage-IIIs and Chinese JF-17, fired 11 H-4 1,000 kg bombs from a 50-km range inside their territory on February 27.

Updated on: March 27, 2019, 4:52 PM IST
News18.com

New Delhi: A day after the Indian Air Force (IAF) carried out aerial strikes on a Jaish e-Mohammad (JeM) terrorist camp in Balakot, the Pakistani Air Force tried to carry out a similar attack against Indian military targets but failed to do so.

According to news agency ANI's report that quotes government sources, the Pakistani Air Force with its package of more than 20 planes, led by the American F-16s along with French Mirage-IIIs and Chinese JF-17, fired 11 H-4 1,000 kg bombs from a 50-km range inside their territory on February 27. The attack was made at military targets at three locations, but failed to hit any of them.

The H-4 bombs fired by the Mirage-IIIs of the Pakistan Air Force are classified as stand-off weapons which can be launched from a distance to aid quicker evasive manoeuvres of jets that fire them. These bombs are similar to the Spice-2000 bombs which were used by the Indian Air Force in the Balakot strikes.

“These H-4s are not very accurate and missed their targets,” a government source was quoted as saying by ANI. The official added that in one of the attacks on an army camp in Jammu and Kashmir, the building was protected by a huge tree which managed to deflect the Pakistani bomb.

According to the report, senior officers were present inside the campus when the attacks took place in Poonch and adjoining areas.A Board of Officers has been formed to analyse the remains of the Pakistani bombs and other debris from the explosion.

The government sources speaking on condition of anonymity to ANI, said that Pakistani jets missed the target because of the quick response of Indian jets. In haste, the H-4 bombs were let off thereby missing their intended targets.

The most advanced Pakistani fighter F-16s were used for launching the air-to-air missiles against Indian fighter jets, while the Mirage IIIs were used for launching air-to-ground missiles in the attacks.

It was during this aggression that Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman shot down an F-16 plane using his R-73 air-to-air missile fired from his MiG-21 plane.

https://www.news18.com/news/india/p...kot-air-strike-but-failed-report-2079381.html

-------------------------------------------------------

The story claims to be from anonymous Govt. source. If this is true, it's an act of outright war by Pakistan. We cannot let this one go lightly.

 

[DivineHeretic]

The problem here is if the IAF came out and made public a minute by minute sequence of the ecounter. would be fantastic. I would be more inclined to believe the IAF than the PAF-fact(not because of patriotism or anything, but the sheer fact of historical accurate reporting).

Then again, I do not know if that would be allowed

But question is how did the F-16's get a lock and fox fire multiple AMRAAM's? Why weren't our MKI's able to respond with our missiles? As soon as paf entered Indian airspace, we reserve the right to shoot them down if I'm not mistaken. Or did the PAF lock on to our MKI's inside Pakistani airspace? I still don't have the whole picture.

A little bit of clarification for people who are confused:

For BVR radar guided missile engagements, it is the aircraft radar which generates a radar lock and consequently the firing solution. The missile seeker does not really come into play for firing solution.

In this situation, as per my understanding, the AMRAAMs seekers never established their own target locks on the MKIs, which is an amateur launch

For this engagement, the BARS radar onboard MKIs would have been able to gain lock and generate firing solutions from as far as 80-100km for the R-77. That's where the system stops and the man behind the machine comes into the picture.

The moment you choose to lock the counterparty knows he's being marked. Its like putting your finger on a gun trigger: professionals will always tell you, only put your finger on the trigger when you are ready to shoot.

Furthermore, there are tables, for each missile type which clearly identify the pK (probability of kill) at different ranges for fighters. Loosening a $500,000-$1,200,000 missile at Max range with a pK of 5-10% is unprofessional, to say the least, especially in a heavy jamming environment.

As professional pilots, the MKI drivers would have waited for the ranges to close in enough for the pK to be 85-90%.

 

[ashdoc]

Could you tell us who blocked that proposal ? What was the position/ stand of HALand DRDO on that proposal ?

George Fernandes who was defence minister blocked . The NDA government of that time wanted to go for full scale testing of all six contenders of MRCA deal .

The IAF pilots wanted mirage 2000-5 , but government thought better of the proposal . Maybe the idea was to get new generation fighterjets outclassing our neighbours' fighters rather than mirage 2000 which was just on par with f 16 . Sometime in NDA government part three in 2004 to 2009 the deal was going to be materialized .

Little did the NDA government know that it would fall to not come to power for another 10 years and Congress would leave the deal unsigned .

Also the massive cost of rafale compared to mirage was not realised at that time .

 

[Arsalan123]

Some Pakistani members claiming that they shot Mig21b with JF17. I asked him question " How come JF17 installed with chinese avionics was able to fire Western missile.
Western Weapons are compatible with western Avionics only. Its not like installing BMW engine into Suzuki vehicle and expecting suzuki to perform like BMW.
They came up with wonderful answer.
F16 has American Avionics so we installed american avionics onto JF17 for this specific mission.
I asked " Specific Mission"...SO you guys came prepared for a fight with weapons given to you as "FOR DEFENCE ONLY" "NO OFFENSIVE ROLE" which is clear violation. When did Americans gave you permission to install American Avionics on Non-american Aircraft. If this was true then US would have banged them the moment the got thought. So JF17 firing AMRAAM is out of equation.
We took russian permission to install Isreali Avionics on SU30MKI and Ilushin ( AWACS).

i think we used f-16s but jf-17 was also involved.i don't know how they fired missiles on su-30s.i don't know why su-30 didn't launch any missile towards paf jets.i think only abhinandan violated our airspace but there was another plane either supporting abhinandan or watching abhinandan to get a radar lock.two parachutes means two jets destroyed but this mystery will continue.i don't think that jf-17 can fire amraam.it can only fire long range pl-12.

now we are testing pl-15 and might integrate it on block 2 as well.it's basically for block 3.

 

[Armand2REP]

___________________________________________________

 

[mayfair]

@ashdoc @Armand2REP

Read this excellent rebuttal by KaranM, a moderator at BRF


He punches Ginormous holes into Coupta's lies, deceit and treachery.

 

[Neptune]

@ashdoc @Armand2REP

Read this excellent rebuttal by KaranM, a moderator at BRF


He punches Ginormous holes into Coupta's lies, deceit and treachery.

It was a good read with some new insight. He said a lot of what I have said before , SU-30MKIs have trained against F-16s and many other western aircraft and the avionics performed well, claiming SU-30 radar/weapons did not work is nothing but unsubstantiated gossip with zero factual points.

The part about F-16s wildly firing and wasting AMRAAMs is nothing new. Only the overzealous nationalists would equate that to some Pakistani victory when in fact F-16s were merely depleting their precious missiles while SU-30s patiently waited out the AMRAAMs by waiting for F-16s to run out of weapons while getting a high probability kill. It really highlights how the Pakistani feared SU-30s, they fired at them to keep them at bay, Pakistani pilots despite having numerical superiority achieved nothing and in fact showed many deficiencies. The fact is Pakistani aircraft intruded into Indian territory and dropped bombs in open fields and on trees. The Pakistanis claim it was just a warning and they didn't want to harm any human lives but we all know that is rubbish since they fired at Indian aircraft which counters their claims of not wanting to hurt anyone. What professional air force risks getting their aircraft shot down and starting an all out war only to drop bombs onto open fields for machoism sake?

The fact is Pakistan entered Indian airspace to hit Indian targets but failed. Despite having superior numbers Pakistani aircraft fled east when Indian aircraft, particularly SU-30s showed up. They then wildly fired missiles at SU-30s hoping to keep them at a distance. Pakistani fighters, AWACS and radars failed to detect and shoot down Mig-21s until one was 7km inside Pakistani airspace.


Pakistani pilots have a history of poor discipline by wildly firing everywhere and even shooting down their own aircraft/flying into flight path of bombs. In long wars and wars of attrition these tactics eventually bleed smaller air forces. At the end Pakistani downed a Mig-21 and paraded him and the wreckage for propaganda which was embarrassing for India but beyond the surface the Pakistani side showed numerous deficiencies and flaws, if could have easily been Pakistani pilots paraded by India.

 

[Armand2REP]

@ashdoc @Armand2REP

Read this excellent rebuttal by KaranM, a moderator at BRF


He punches Ginormous holes into Coupta's lies, deceit and treachery.

The same question remains, why did MKIs get shot at and not do anything. Surely the ROEs demand you take action after that.

 

[Rahul Singh]

If the sensors weren't able to defeat the DRFM jammers of the F-16s then you weren't ever getting a lock.

Did you ever get your universal data links for MKI?

MKI is so good it shouldn't matter if it was an ideal scenario. They are supposed to murder anything Pakistan has.

Do you have universal data links on the SAMs too?

I give you a few facts you do the summarization.

RoE was not to engages first and certainly not to fire across LoC. That is why neither SU-30 MKIs and Mig-21 Bisons fired R-77 nor Mirage-2000 fired any MICA first.

Only 3 of PAF formation made shallow intrusion. So only they were the legitimate targets as per the RoE.

However, when PAF started firing from across the LoC RoE changed but by that time MKI's were busy defeating the AMRAMS. And when they fininshed doing it PAF formation was already on the run. Quite out of R-77 effective engagement range.

Why neither SU-30MKI nor Mirage 2000 (who were trailing MKI formation) gave any chase across the LoC certainly points the finger towards the RoE of the day.

 

[uoftotaku]

The same question remains, why did MKIs get shot at and not do anything. Surely the ROEs demand you take action after that.

It remains a fact that nobody except the pilots and AWACS controllers involved on the day know 100% of the information about the events of that fateful hour. Every media article, twitter report and forum post is based on a mix of hearsay, conjecture and sometimes wild sometimes informed speculation.

Will we ever get 100% of the facts? Probably...in due time..

Until then, question like yours can only be answered through more speculation.

Fact is...we don't know

 

[Armand2REP]

It remains a fact that nobody except the pilots and AWACS controllers involved on the day know 100% of the information about the events of that fateful hour. Every media article, twitter report and forum post is based on a mix of hearsay, conjecture and sometimes wild sometimes informed speculation.

Will we ever get 100% of the facts? Probably...in due time..

Until then, question like yours can only be answered through more speculation.

Fact is...we don't know

There are only two conclusions to draw...

1) Either F-16 ECM jamming was able to spoof the MKIs or...

2) MKI pilots were derelict in their duty.

I doubt the pilots of IAF are derelict so the blame must be placed on the equipment.

 

[Neptune]

The same question remains, why did MKIs get shot at and not do anything. Surely the ROEs demand you take action after that.

The has been discussed numerous times. Pakistani aircraft outnumbered Indians ones, the few SU-30MKIs available simply let the Pakistanis waste their missiles. Pakistani aircraft don't have i unlimited weapons and their loitering time is nowhere near that of the SU-30MKi. The SU-30s were waiting to get a high probability launch instead of wasting their missiles while letting Pakistanis waste their missile as well as fuel which is fatal in such situations. I would imagine the SU-30MKis could have also been buying time by waiting for reinforcements.

With all the bragging done by Pakistanis about firing at SU-30s they have never stopped to think why none of their missiles connected. It's likely that the SU-30s jammed Pakistani aircraft or simply that the AMRAAMS had poor reliability. Either way the SU-30s defeated the AMRAAMS and kept a much larger Pakistani force at bay while towarting their plan by simply being airborne--in other words, a handful of Indian aircraft was enough of a deterrence. Bottom line is Pakistanis failed to shoot down SU-30s and Mirages, and even more embarrassing is that they could not detect/shoot down a Mig-21 until it was 7km inside Pakistan.

India did the best they could with what they had. Indian pilots train for this and if people think SU-30 pilots should have just flown into a hornets nest of Pakistani aircraft then they are ignorant.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

The f*ing shitshow that paf has put out. F16’s and SAAB awcs. Both of them under scrutiny for violating terms. Guess they don’t think before they act. Good to know that weakness.
Hope this time around bjp stays in power to be able to put up some sort of assistance at least to give the armed forces more firepower. We have not even ventured into the area of large scale cyber warfare or cyber security. Soo many bases to cover. Sheesh

 

[Neptune]

There are only two conclusions to draw...

1) Either F-16 ECM jamming was able to spoof the MKIs or...

2) MKI pilots were derelict in their duty.

I doubt the pilots of IAF are derelict so the blame must be placed on the equipment.

This is just nonsense. If Pakistani AMRAAMS were missing at those distance what gives you the impression that it was a good idea for a few outnumbered MKIs to fire at those distances as well? SU-30MKis have trained against F-16 as well as much more advanced aircraft and their radar was praised for its performance.

The SU-30mkis were letting the F-16s waste their missiles while the Indians themselves were waiting for a high probability kill/reinforcements. You seem to spin the story and seem fixated with why Indian pilots showed good displine and patience while not asking why a barrage of AMRAAMS failed so miserably.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

This is just nonsense. If Pakistani AMRAAMS were missing at those distance what gives you the impression that it was a good idea for a few outnumbered MKIs to fire at those distances as well? SU-30MKis have trained against F-16 as well as much more advanced aircraft and their radar was praised for its performance.

The SU-30mkis were letting the F-16s waste their missiles while the Indians themselves were waiting for a high probability kill/reinforcements. You seem to spin the story and seem fixated with why Indian pilots showed good displine and patience while not asking why a barrage of AMRAAMS failed so miserably.

I doubt the Mki’s were letting them waste their missiles. Most probably with so few mki’s up in the air and multiple amraams, the mki’s were busy defeating the surplus amraams by which time paf turned tail and dashed back to Pakistani air space. No time for iaf to react. Which is tactically possible as the f16’s would have just decided to dump the amraams in hopes of at least hitting something. They would have realized there were more sukhois on the way to reinforce

 

[cannonfodder]

https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=2337749#p2337749

Karan on BR has shredded hit job https://www.hindustantimes.com/colu...ght-reveals/story-dDa4H38Xtq7LPnj6DtkZRN.html by Gupta.

But this provides some great insights of what happened during IAF-PAF clash and SU-30 capabilities.

As AVM Subramaniam (Retd) notes, out of 4 available Su-30s, two Su-30s were at the limits of their endurance. So in effect, the remaining 2 Su-30s stayed on in the fight, and took on several times their number. We are told by Gupta that the radar/weapons control/missile were outmatched. Lets look at this entire set in more detail, to understand how ludicrous his claims really are.

The first fact, is that the Su-30s radar is far more powerful than the APG-68 V(9) on the F-16s, quite easily compensating for the size difference between the two fighters in terms of radar cross section, and in Red Flag and several other multinational exercises, and in-house IAF exercises all with jammers, the Bars radar has held up well, in training mode itself. (Reference circa 2008 https://www.livefistdefence.com/2008/11 ... -hand.html). Considering the fact that the central sensor of the Sukhoi, its radar … held up just fine in training mode …despite the barrage of electronic jamming augurs well for the Indian Air Force. Note that a decade back itself, the then version of the Bars radar which was subsequently upgraded in 2012, acquitted itself well against some of the most sophisticated electronic warfare units available at Nellis AFB during the famed Red Flag exercises.

Subsequently, the Su-30s have matched up in Beyond Visual Range fights against F-16s, F-15s, Rafales, Mirage 2000s, Eurofighters, Tornado F.3 ADVs and have acquitted themselves credibly, in several cases coming out ahead. Never mind, the IAF has heavily evaluated the fighter against what it itself possesses. So here we have the foundation of the Su-30 weapons system as being well established. Clearly, the radar and its weapons control system work well.

Also, the Su-30 pilots have RVV-AE missiles which match the AMRAAMs in range. Unlike the Pakistani pilots though, they didn't fire their missiles "blind" and waited for a proper, high probability of kill shot, while maneuvering to dodge the PAF AMRAAMs.

Now in which idiotic world, does this series of events, translate to the Su-30s being "outranged and outgunned". At this point, we must pity the author's lack of knowledge when it comes to how BVR combat works.

BVR combat is quite complex, but can be summarized as being about denying the enemy's weaponry any chance of a kill while maneuvering to land a decisive shot. If anything, the IAF pilots played the BVR game perfectly. They out maneuvered, decoyed the AMRAAMs, & kept the air defence F-16s engaged, allowing time for Bisons to bounce the strike F-16s, even as they (the Su-30s) prevented the air defence F-16s from shooting down the Bisons in BVR. The Su-30s played to their strengths, their endurance for instance.

 

[Armand2REP]

This is just nonsense. If Pakistani AMRAAMS were missing at those distance what gives you the impression that it was a good idea for a few outnumbered MKIs to fire at those distances as well? SU-30MKis have trained against F-16 as well as much more advanced aircraft and their radar was praised for its performance.

The SU-30mkis were letting the F-16s waste their missiles while the Indians themselves were waiting for a high probability kill/reinforcements. You seem to spin the story and seem fixated with why Indian pilots showed good displine and patience while not asking why a barrage of AMRAAMS failed so miserably.

The radar of the MKI is far more powerful than a legacy F-16. It should have acquired missile lock BEFORE the F-16 could get a lock. The radar was praised for its performance so what is the excuse for not shooting down any PAF aircraft? It is the only reason they exist.

Letting them waste their missiles??? That is a stupid strategy, the one who fires first is the one who wins.

Lets see, PAF had already crossed the LOC, MKIs did nothing, PAF launched missiles at the IAF, MKIs did nothing... at what point do you DO SOMETHING?!?!?

 

[IndiaRising]

The radar of the MKI is far more powerful than a legacy F-16. It should have acquired missile lock BEFORE the F-16 could get a lock. The radar was praised for its performance so what is the excuse for not shooting down any PAF aircraft? It is the only reason they exist.

Letting them waste their missiles??? That is a stupid strategy, the one who fires first is the one who wins.

Lets see, PAF had already crossed the LOC, MKIs did nothing, PAF launched missiles at the IAF, MKIs did nothing... at what point do you DO SOMETHING?!?!?

https://www.firstpost.com/world/bal...strates-full-spectrum-capability-6236391.html

 

[Neptune]

The radar of the MKI is far more powerful than a legacy F-16. It should have acquired missile lock BEFORE the F-16 could get a lock. The radar was praised for its performance so what is the excuse for not shooting down any PAF aircraft? It is the only reason they exist.

And you know that the F-16 acquired a lock first how again?

Letting them waste their missiles??? That is a stupid strategy, the one who fires first is the one who wins.

No, a stupid strategy would be to start wasting your missiles and then be pounced on by Pakistani aircraft when you have no missiles left. And the one who fires first doesn't win first, the one who gets a quality lock and decides to fire within a high kill probability while maintaining course correction is the one that wins. You argument is like saying whoever just wildly shoots a pistol wins a gunfight when in reality the one that take one well places shot with good sight picture, trigger control and grip is the one that wins a gunfight, not the moron that could not hit the broad side of a barn.

Lets see, PAF had already crossed the LOC, MKIs did nothing, PAF launched missiles at the IAF, MKIs did nothing... at what point do you DO SOMETHING?!?!?

The SU-30s were badly outnumbered. They were enough to act as a deterrence that caused Pakistani to abandon their miss adventure. Again there is no point in wasting missiles especially when you are outnumbered. The Indian side had some major issues but so did the Pakistani side. Ideally the Indians should have been better prepared and launched more SU-30s as well as used ground defenses but that is a different topic all together. The Indian side acted wisely with what they had at the time minus the Mig-21 charging into Pakistani airspace.

If Indian aircraft fired missiles into Pakistan the Pakistanis would be parading the wreckage claiming they downed like 100 SU-30s.