IAF MiG-21 shoots down Pakistani F-16

[sachin458377]

I am not able to understand that for 24 pak jets why only 8 indian jets used. Also why our SAM did not responded. Any answer pl

 

[ezsasa]

I am not able to understand that for 24 pak jets why only 8 indian jets used. Also why our SAM did not responded. Any answer pl

only 3 paki jets came close to LOC, rest stayed within their airspace.

 

[Armand2REP]

But they went in In the night and Pakis were caught with their pants down as the air defence could not detect M2000 presence. Here in this video it is over Mirpur in the afternoon which is highly fortified. And away from Poonch where dog fight happened. Is this new Event or may be it was video graphed from Pakistani side but actually it's near LOC?

Or could be some drone?

Then it must be from the next day.

 

[no smoking]

If Pakis are so well off technologically using American equipment and India has 3rd grade Russian junks then Pakis wouldn't have backed out just after one violation.

This should be legitimate question among Intl media.

Any with brain among Intl media won't ask that question because the fleet of over 200 Su-30MKI is far superior in quality and quantity against any American equipment possessed by Pakistanis.

India bombing Paki territory as far as KPK, even trees, is declaration of war.
Even Pakis version paddled is humiliating. Would US have left USSR with only one air violation and shooting down of 2 soviet jets if USSR have bombed corn fields in Texas (hypothetically)?

Again, Pakistan is not US. Her military capability is only a tiny portion of Indian forces.
The current situation is the best they achieve: India bomb her land, they return the favor by shooting down one mig-21. At least, so far, both sides can call even in this conflict. So, it is quite naturally they choose to de-escalate.

 

[Neptune]

only 3 paki jets came close to LOC, rest stayed within their airspace.

Those aircraft were used as bait, it's a classic tactic. 3 aircraft are also harder to detect. The rest of the aircraft were loitering waiting for Indians to respond.

 

[indiatester]

Trying to focus back on what @patriots had posted earlier about the f-16.net forum discussion.

I didn't see Tom Cooper say that F-16 went down, but it did appear that Mig-21 surprised the F-16 and came in from height of 13000ft compared to 7000ft where the F-16's were.

This is what Tom Cooper had said
http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=413924&sid=2beaffaa44a47747fcbf62770b43f3ab#p413924

I really wish LM would do a PAK F-16 headcount...

They're going to do so, whether the Pakistanis like that or not. The reason is that Pakistan is obligued to let the Pentagon (and LM) inspect their F-16s at least two times a year.
A slightly different question is the one of what are the Pentagon and LM then going to release about their findings. If one has nothing else to gauge upon, when a PAF F-16 got shot down back in 1987 (yes, my memory happens to go that far back) official Islamabad first said that none was lost - and then maintained that version for about two months, before coming out with the version about 'fratricide fire', and that with help of same people (then working for General-Dynamics, later for LM) who also helped convince the Pakistanis their F-16s shot down 'two Soviet MiG-23MLs' (actually, they damaged one).

What a surprise then, the case is actually unclear until this very day....

I really don't care for the whole PAK supports terrorism angle. That much is pretty clear (i.e. Bin Laden living in PAK for a decade or so). I just want the aerial combat results clarified, so we can put them in their proper context and find it whether or not it changes anyone's thinking about aerial warfare in the 21st century.

Well, sorry to inform you that in the case of Pakistan, this can easily take 50-60 years.
Just one example: official PAF still insists on M M. Alam shooting down '5 Hunters in less than 5 minutes', back in 1965 - no matter how much this was proven to be a lie, and that already 20 years ago.

One thing seems abundantly clear: Dogfights still happen, at least when it comes to 3rd and 4th gen birds are concerned..

There was no 'dogfight' on 27 February.
The PAF was 'orbiting' on one side of the LOC, the IAF on the other. Then the PAF found an opportune moment: Su-30MKIs were heading in opposite direction (one can't orbit in direction of the opponent all the time), and it appeared to the Pakistanis that nobody is airborne over Srinagar. So, they sent 4 F-16s 'in'.

As these 4 F-16s moved in, the Su-30MKIs turned to intercept, in turn prompting the other 4 F-16s to engage them. That's how it happened few AIM-120C-5s 'migrated to India'. But, since AMRAAMs were fired from 30km+ away, all missed (about 10+ years ago, when some really well-informed people were still finding it worth to frequent places like this forum, one could still read why: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6302&p=75873&hilit=Looks+like+I%27ve+yanked+your+chain#p75873).

Furthermore, the problem is there's a mountain chain with 4,000m (that's about 13,000ft) high peaks in between the LOC and Srinagar. Thus, the PAF AWACS missed the IAF scrambling several MiG-21s from Awantipora FOB and Srinagar AB in response to ingressing F-16s. Yes, ladies and gentlemen: contrary to video games, in reality radars can't see through mountains. First surprise here, I guess.

So, when the MiGs climbed over that mountain chain... 'surprise, surprise': they found themselves at 15,000ft+ - high above F-16s that were ingressing at about 7,000ft. The lead MiG dove, ignoring the fact he's crossing the LOC while doing so, one of F-16s came up towards the MiG. What happened next is unclear.

...that is: until the moments captured on several cell-phones, showing that MiG going down in flames.

Where have I got this? Call it a 'rumour'.

 

[Neptune]

Trying to focus back on what @patriots had posted earlier about the f-16.net forum discussion.

I didn't see Tom Cooper say that F-16 went down, but it did appear that Mig-21 surprised the F-16 and came in from height of 13000ft compared to 7000ft where the F-16's were.

This is what Tom Cooper had said
http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=413924&sid=2beaffaa44a47747fcbf62770b43f3ab#p413924


They're going to do so, whether the Pakistanis like that or not. The reason is that Pakistan is obligued to let the Pentagon (and LM) inspect their F-16s at least two times a year.
A slightly different question is the one of what are the Pentagon and LM then going to release about their findings. If one has nothing else to gauge upon, when a PAF F-16 got shot down back in 1987 (yes, my memory happens to go that far back) official Islamabad first said that none was lost - and then maintained that version for about two months, before coming out with the version about 'fratricide fire', and that with help of same people (then working for General-Dynamics, later for LM) who also helped convince the Pakistanis their F-16s shot down 'two Soviet MiG-23MLs' (actually, they damaged one).

What a surprise then, the case is actually unclear until this very day....



Well, sorry to inform you that in the case of Pakistan, this can easily take 50-60 years.
Just one example: official PAF still insists on M M. Alam shooting down '5 Hunters in less than 5 minutes', back in 1965 - no matter how much this was proven to be a lie, and that already 20 years ago.



There was no 'dogfight' on 27 February.
The PAF was 'orbiting' on one side of the LOC, the IAF on the other. Then the PAF found an opportune moment: Su-30MKIs were heading in opposite direction (one can't orbit in direction of the opponent all the time), and it appeared to the Pakistanis that nobody is airborne over Srinagar. So, they sent 4 F-16s 'in'.

As these 4 F-16s moved in, the Su-30MKIs turned to intercept, in turn prompting the other 4 F-16s to engage them. That's how it happened few AIM-120C-5s 'migrated to India'. But, since AMRAAMs were fired from 30km+ away, all missed (about 10+ years ago, when some really well-informed people were still finding it worth to frequent places like this forum, one could still read why: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6302&p=75873&hilit=Looks+like+I%27ve+yanked+your+chain#p75873).

Furthermore, the problem is there's a mountain chain with 4,000m (that's about 13,000ft) high peaks in between the LOC and Srinagar. Thus, the PAF AWACS missed the IAF scrambling several MiG-21s from Awantipora FOB and Srinagar AB in response to ingressing F-16s. Yes, ladies and gentlemen: contrary to video games, in reality radars can't see through mountains. First surprise here, I guess.

So, when the MiGs climbed over that mountain chain... 'surprise, surprise': they found themselves at 15,000ft+ - high above F-16s that were ingressing at about 7,000ft. The lead MiG dove, ignoring the fact he's crossing the LOC while doing so, one of F-16s came up towards the MiG. What happened next is unclear.

...that is: until the moments captured on several cell-phones, showing that MiG going down in flames.

Where have I got this? Call it a 'rumour'.

I was thinking about the Pakistani F-16 that just happened to get shot down by "friendly fire" while it tangled with Soviet aircraft. That just further shows how dishonest Pakistan is, everytime they face an adversary they end up losing aircraft, they then get caught lying and because they are pathological liars by nature they will then invent stories about shooting down enemy aircraft.

If the US sent F-22 to dismantle the Pakistani Air Force you better bet that Pakistan will claim they shot down F-22s and future generations of Pakistanis will will eat that shit up.

Still waiting for Pakistani proof of an MKI kill which they could easily present, but instead they spent their time and energy parading Mig-21 wreckage, a bloodied pilot, missile debris, propaganda filled twitter tirades and photo shoots with lying pilots wearing corny patch in which they show a MKI signifying they downed one.

They try so hard to convince everyone they are downed a Mig-21 and SU-30 but have no evidence for the ladder.

 

[DivineHeretic]

I didn't see Tom Cooper say that F-16 went down,

It was in one of his posts based on his sources in Pakistan Air Force, as early as 27th itself. He later deleted those posts after being relentlessly trolled by Pakistanis.

Apparently PAF own sources had confirmed to Cooper that an F-16 had been shot down. His sources however went silent immediately afterwards.

 

[Armand2REP]

It was in one of his posts based on his sources in Pakistan Air Force, as early as 27th itself. He later deleted those posts after being relentlessly trolled by Pakistanis.

Apparently PAF own sources had confirmed to Cooper that an F-16 had been shot down. His sources however went silent immediately afterwards.

People in positions that would know wouldn't be jeopardising their careers by talking about it. That is what press conferences are for.

 

[indiatester]

It was in one of his posts based on his sources in Pakistan Air Force, as early as 27th itself. He later deleted those posts after being relentlessly trolled by Pakistanis.

Apparently PAF own sources had confirmed to Cooper that an F-16 had been shot down. His sources however went silent immediately afterwards.

That guy has written a lot!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Cooper_(author)
His sources would be top notch for sure.

 

[Craigs]

People in positions that would know wouldn't be jeopardising their careers by talking about it. That is what press conferences are for.

Dude you are assuming 1) The sources will identify themselves 2) The article writer will identify his sources. If both those assumptions are false then said anonymous sources are certainly not sharing info out of the goodness of their heart.

 

[Armand2REP]

Dude you are assuming 1) The sources will identify themselves 2) The article writer will identify his sources. If both those assumptions are false then said anonymous sources are certainly not sharing info out of the goodness of their heart.

I am assuming that members of the IAF will not talk about something they are not cleared to talk about.

 

[Craigs]

I am assuming that members of the IAF will not talk about something they are not cleared to talk about.

It depends on the motivation levels of the force. But we do see the phenomenon of anonymous sources widely in India. That is why it is very hard to hide things from the public especially if it is something about military deaths.

 

[Immanuel]

The Indian Air force and GOI failed, and failed humiliatingly, on 27th. No two opinions about it and no excuses regarding this disgraceful performance.

They forgot the one cardinal rule when dealing with pathological liers and a post truth world: In a battle between perception and reality, perception wins, everytime.

Nobody cares what you did, or what happened. Pakistanis for certain don't care, and as has been demonstrated, neither does the rest of the world. Your "facts" and "claims", not backed by incontrovertible proof or systematic propaganda, can't hold candle to the claims of a jihadi rabid dog. In fact, international media won't even bother publishing your claims. That's how low the credibility is,

So now, atleast to the world outside India, you have an incompetent air force that specializes in losing and being shot down, Reality be damned. That's how the perception of IAF will now be shaped as.

I hope that MKI kill patch and that pic is put on posters near every single airbase in the country, so that everyone from the higher command and the grass roots airmen, know how shamefully they have been defeated. Doesn't matter what happened in reality, or how bravely IAF pilots acted. To 75% of the world who cares to read, the IAF had its aircraft shot down, its pilot arrested, then freed as mercy.

Remember that shame. Remember Perception and reality are not two separate battle. They are now part of combined arms. You lose the battle of perception, you lose on the ground.

Words from a friend, and former batchmate, andd an award winning Research Assistant at one of the best Unis in USA. Thought to share.

Well your friend has no idea what he/she is talking about. Perception doesn't matter, ask the Pukis on the LOC what is happening. Their denial, propaganda is costing them heavily. Since, as they claim nothing is happening, as of now a lot of 'nothing' is happening. It is the best way to treat gutter inbred liars.

To Argue with a fool is foolish, Pukis are drowning in their own lies. These Lies will eventually lead to it's split.
Also, history has it's way to get Pukis in their right place, which is exactly the gutter. Eventually their lies catch up. In reality, if Wing Co hadn't be back before end of Geneva Convention rules, Karachi and other places would still be burning.

Fact is they got their asses hand to them and from the very 'calm' LOC and IB at the moment. We'll find out soon enough.

 

[Immanuel]

As for the enter ACM with Wing Co, MKIs and the Pukis is still entirely classified and the details without any sources are exactly those. Neither are the ROEs known to us. Quit speculation.

 

[indiatester]

Well your friend has no idea what he/she is talking about. Perception doesn't matter, ask the Pukis on the LOC what is happening. Their denial, propaganda is costing them heavily. Since, as they claim nothing is happening, as of now a lot of 'nothing' is happening. It is the best way to treat gutter inbred liars.

To Argue with a fool is foolish, Pukis are drowning in their own lies. These Lies will eventually lead to it's split.
Also, history has it's way to get Pukis in their right place, which is exactly the gutter. Eventually their lies catch up. In reality, if Wing Co hadn't be back before end of Geneva Convention rules, Karachi and other places would still be burning.

Fact is they got their asses hand to them and from the very 'calm' LOC and IB at the moment. We'll find out soon enough.

Has the LOC changed?
There were cases where IA wanted to take a few strategic posts, but could not because the political bosses did not approve. Was there a free hand even in this aspect?

 

[Anil47]

Those aircraft were used as bait, it's a classic tactic. 3 aircraft are also harder to detect. The rest of the aircraft were loitering waiting for Indians to respond.

Bravo! This is the most logical assessment now at least for me. Indeed he was baited because Pakis did not want to give India a reason to escalate after that and humiliate us by showing our pilot, and if escalation have had happened it would be not as per India's limited theater.
This is why may be none of the other aircrafts responded to Paki aggression and waited for them to first enter Indian airspace so that later India can show the wreckage to the world that we shot down intruding Pakistani fighter jet to humiliate them. But opposite happened, they got our pilot and the wreckage too.

 

[Kazah]

Bravo! This is the most logical assessment now at least for me. Indeed he was baited because Pakis did not want to give India a reason to escalate after that and humiliate us by showing our pilot, and if escalation have had happened it would be not as per India's limited theater.
This is why may be none of the other aircrafts responded to Paki aggression and waited for them to first enter Indian airspace so that later India can show the wreckage to the world that we shot down intruding Pakistani fighter jet to humiliate them. But opposite happened, they got our pilot and the wreckage too.

Your take on IAF's claim of shooting down F 16 ? If it didnt happen then why IAF made such bold statement

 

[maomao]

can some on analyse this video this was published on 26th Feb? Some where over Mirpur??? How is that Possible. Looks like aerial engagement between IAF and Paki AF began immediately after India conducted air raid in KPK.

I don't know if the video is dubbed or not or Syrian or from other combat, however the Mirpuris (two or three different voices) in this video clearly says two things:

1) The man who says heat up the water for bathing (he is not the camera man) says - one More aircraft down!

2) Another guy says this is happening "Again and again" then talks about something regarding the water dam, need to listen to it again may be!

Rest all is how aircrafts are going down gibberish!

 

[Darth Malgus]

Pakistanis were winning the war two days after their surrendering in 1971 as per their own newspapers. In the end when the dust settled, shit finally hit the fan and the truth came out. Now its just a matter of waiting and to see the how the cards come tumbling down.