IAF MiG-21 shoots down Pakistani F-16

[Neptune]

MiG-21 has an incredibly small nose cone and therefor just as small of a radar aperture. It would not be able to get target lock at the full range of the missile. That is what MKI is for having a huge radar that can see hundreds of clicks out.

Large formation of aircraft make it difficult for opposing radar to distinguish one aircraft apart from another due to radar resolution. The radar may see one large target when there is multiple.

The Indian Air Force had major laps of judgment and poor state of readiness. The Indian side violated Pakistan airspace (for good reason) but they only managed to get a handful of aircraft up to face a numerically superior Pakistani force. They should have had more aircraft ready to confront the imminent Pakistani threat.


It also appears the Indian side was defense in nature minus the Mig-21. Most aggressive air forces that strike first and in large numbers usually come out victorious. The Indian side had neither the numbers nor did they take the initiative. If the Indian side mustard similar numbers to the Pakistani force and they sent enough R-77s flying towards the Pakistanis they would likely swat some Pakistani aircraft out of the air and sent the remaining with their tale behind their legs and sent Pakistan a message.

Now Pakistan is emboldened and they their propaganda machine have many believing that they downed an SU-30.

 

[Armand2REP]

Large formation of aircraft make it difficult for opposing radar to distinguish one aircraft apart from another due to radar resolution. The radar may see one large target when there is multiple.

uhh... they weren't packed in a 24 strong wedge formation so I don't think the N011M would have a problem picking out targets. If that radar is really as bad as you suggest they could still fire at it and let the seeker go active homing in the terminal phase.

 

[Anil47]

MiG-21 has an incredibly small nose cone and therefor just as small of a radar aperture. It would not be able to get target lock at the full range of the missile. That is what MKI is for having a huge radar that can see hundreds of clicks out.

I believe it was because of the Electronic suppression package which was deployed by the PAF so heat seeker works well but for that it has to be WVR engagement.

MKIs not firing the missile could be either a wrong statement , they might have fired but they missed it OR strict orders and ROE that don't fire unless until Pakis cross the LOC.

But any case we should have retaliated them people may have a different opinion than me but we inflicted less damage to them than they have done to us.

 

[Armand2REP]

I believe it was because of the Electronic suppression package which was deployed by the PAF so heat seeker works well but for that it has to be WVR engagement.

MKIs not firing the missile could be either a wrong statement , they might have fired but they missed it OR strict orders and ROE that don't fire unless until Pakis cross the LOC.

But any case we should have retaliated them people may have a different opinion than me but we inflicted less damage to them than they have done to us.

What kind of electronic suppression does the PAF use?

If the MKIs did fire and hit nothing then there is still a board of inquiry needing to be called about the reliability of the missile.

The MKIs should have retaliated and shot down a dozen fighters... I fully agree! We need to know why they failed to do that. It isn't that PAF just violated Indian airspace, they fired at IAF aircraft with no response except the gallant Wing Commander in an old MiG-21. MKI had no kills when they should have had double aces that day.

 

[Anil47]

Pakis got ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites (AIDEWS) in 2016 from USA

I am fully for a silent internal investigation within IAF, why BVRAAM were not used and if used then what went wrong.

What kind of electronic suppression does the PAF use?

If the MKIs did fire and hit nothing then there is still a board of inquiry needing to be called about the reliability of the missile.

QUOTE]

 

[Armand2REP]

Pakis got ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites (AIDEWS) in 2016 from USA

I am fully for a silent internal investigation within IAF, why BVRAAM were not used and if used then what went wrong.

If a cheap little jamming pod can make the best Russian radar and missiles obsolete I would call that a big problem.

 

[Neptune]

What kind of electronic suppression does the PAF use?

If the MKIs did fire and hit nothing then there is still a board of inquiry needing to be called about the reliability of the missile.

The MKIs should have retaliated and shot down a dozen fighters... I fully agree! We need to know why they failed to do that. It isn't that PAF just violated Indian airspace, they fired at IAF aircraft with no response except the gallant Wing Commander in an old MiG-21. MKI had no kills when they should have had double aces that day.

The MKI didn't fire anything otherwise Pakistan would be parading R-77 wreckage claiming its proof of their farce SU-30 shoot down. At this point they just made some fake cheesy patches claiming they downed an MKI, its enough public consumption in Pakistan.

Even If, theoretically, MKIs did fire and missed it doesn't say anything about the R-77 reliability. If the missiles were fired at the outer limits of their range Pakistani aircraft would just have to turn away from the missiles and they would not have enough range. Likewise other Pakistani aircraft could still harass Indian aircraft by launching at Indian aircraft and the outnumbered Indian aircraft could do little other then deploy counter maneuvers and measures. In other words Pakistan had so many aircraft up that even if the Indian side launched missiles Pakistani aircraft could fly in holding patterns, for instance when Pakistan aircraft are locked onto by MKIs they would employ counter maneuvers and measures to defeat R-77s while other Pakistani aircraft that arnt locked onto are firing at Indian aircraft which would keep them at bay, hence not letting Indian aircraft get close enough to get a quality launch and this is the fault of India for not launching enough aircraft or being aggressive enough.



Pakistan despite having overwhelming numerical superiority did nothing when a few MKIs showed up, they stay on their side of the boarder and despite firing at MKIs they failed to hit anything. They only downed a Mig-21 when it crossed the border alone.

Moral of the story, India messes up, instead of launching and matching or overwhelming the Pakistani forces they did nothing. Undoubtedly Indian aircraft could have downed a number of Pakistani aircraft but they just sat idle.

 

[Neptune]

Pakistani along with a Tork (Mohammad and Borat) showing off an SU-30mki kill patch. This is typical behavior for Pakistan, half of their pilots are credited with phantom kills that never happened. This is "proof" for Pakistanis

You can be guaranteed that in future skirmishes with India, Pakistan will claim more kills that never happened and Pakistanis especially on PDF will get wet with excitement. These people have no shame

 

[Absolut_Vodka]

Pakistani along with a Tork (Mohammad and Borat) showing off an SU-30mki kill patch. This is typical behavior for Pakistan, half of their pilots are credited with phantom kills that never happened. This is "proof" for Pakistanis

View attachment 33488


You can be guaranteed that in future skirmishes with India, Pakistan will claim more kills that never happened and Pakistanis especially on PDF will get wet with excitement. These people have no shame

Congrats to Porki pilots. Now they too are Axact Graduates.

 

[Joker]

Pakistani along with a Tork (Mohammad and Borat) showing off an SU-30mki kill patch. This is typical behavior for Pakistan, half of their pilots are credited with phantom kills that never happened. This is "proof" for Pakistanis

View attachment 33488


You can be guaranteed that in future skirmishes with India, Pakistan will claim more kills that never happened and Pakistanis especially on PDF will get wet with excitement. These people have no shame

Am I missing something, where are the rafales PAF shot down, where is the israeli f15 mujahid hawai fizzleya shot down....this is not done

 

[DivineHeretic]

Pakistani along with a Tork (Mohammad and Borat) showing off an SU-30mki kill patch. This is typical behavior for Pakistan, half of their pilots are credited with phantom kills that never happened. This is "proof" for Pakistanis

View attachment 33488


You can be guaranteed that in future skirmishes with India, Pakistan will claim more kills that never happened and Pakistanis especially on PDF will get wet with excitement. These people have no shame

The Indian Air force and GOI failed, and failed humiliatingly, on 27th. No two opinions about it and no excuses regarding this disgraceful performance.

They forgot the one cardinal rule when dealing with pathological liers and a post truth world: In a battle between perception and reality, perception wins, everytime.

Nobody cares what you did, or what happened. Pakistanis for certain don't care, and as has been demonstrated, neither does the rest of the world. Your "facts" and "claims", not backed by incontrovertible proof or systematic propaganda, can't hold candle to the claims of a jihadi rabid dog. In fact, international media won't even bother publishing your claims. That's how low the credibility is,

So now, atleast to the world outside India, you have an incompetent air force that specializes in losing and being shot down, Reality be damned. That's how the perception of IAF will now be shaped as.

I hope that MKI kill patch and that pic is put on posters near every single airbase in the country, so that everyone from the higher command and the grass roots airmen, know how shamefully they have been defeated. Doesn't matter what happened in reality, or how bravely IAF pilots acted. To 75% of the world who cares to read, the IAF had its aircraft shot down, its pilot arrested, then freed as mercy.

Remember that shame. Remember Perception and reality are not two separate battle. They are now part of combined arms. You lose the battle of perception, you lose on the ground.

Words from a friend, and former batchmate, andd an award winning Research Assistant at one of the best Unis in USA. Thought to share.

 

[singhboy98]

The Indian Air force and GOI failed, and failed humiliatingly, on 27th. No two opinions about it and no excuses regarding this disgraceful performance.

They forgot the one cardinal rule when dealing with pathological liers and a post truth world: In a battle between perception and reality, perception wins, everytime.

Nobody cares what you did, or what happened. Pakistanis for certain don't care, and as has been demonstrated, neither does the rest of the world. Your "facts" and "claims", not backed by incontrovertible proof or systematic propaganda, can't hold candle to the claims of a jihadi rabid dog. In fact, international media won't even bother publishing your claims. That's how low the credibility is,

So now, atleast to the world outside India, you have an incompetent air force that specializes in losing and being shot down, Reality be damned. That's how the perception of IAF will now be shaped as.

I hope that MKI kill patch and that pic is put on posters near every single airbase in the country, so that everyone from the higher command and the grass roots airmen, know how shamefully they have been defeated. Doesn't matter what happened in reality, or how bravely IAF pilots acted. To 75% of the world who cares to read, the IAF had its aircraft shot down, its pilot arrested, then freed as mercy.

Remember that shame. Remember Perception and reality are not two separate battle. They are now part of combined arms. You lose the battle of perception, you lose on the ground.

Words from a friend, and former batchmate, andd an award winning Research Assistant at one of the best Unis in USA. Thought to share.

Though I have to agree with what you are saying at the present, I would like to think that we WILL have the last laugh. Operations are ongoing and I don't see why the IAF will not take its revenge with a disproportionate interest from the PAF.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Though I have to agree with what you are saying at the present, I would like to think that we WILL have the last laugh. Operations are ongoing and I don't see why the IAF will not take its revenge with a disproportionate interest from the PAF.

In all honesty, not my words. I do not necessarily agree with his opinion. Just wanted to put out the feelings of a substantial part of the Indian diaspora, at the shoddy perception management by GOI, IAF_MCC. An MBA student could have done better.

 

[Srinivas_K]

The Indian Air force and GOI failed, and failed humiliatingly, on 27th. No two opinions about it and no excuses regarding this disgraceful performance.

They forgot the one cardinal rule when dealing with pathological liers and a post truth world: In a battle between perception and reality, perception wins, everytime.

Nobody cares what you did, or what happened. Pakistanis for certain don't care, and as has been demonstrated, neither does the rest of the world. Your "facts" and "claims", not backed by incontrovertible proof or systematic propaganda, can't hold candle to the claims of a jihadi rabid dog. In fact, international media won't even bother publishing your claims. That's how low the credibility is,

So now, atleast to the world outside India, you have an incompetent air force that specializes in losing and being shot down, Reality be damned. That's how the perception of IAF will now be shaped as.

I hope that MKI kill patch and that pic is put on posters near every single airbase in the country, so that everyone from the higher command and the grass roots airmen, know how shamefully they have been defeated. Doesn't matter what happened in reality, or how bravely IAF pilots acted. To 75% of the world who cares to read, the IAF had its aircraft shot down, its pilot arrested, then freed as mercy.

Remember that shame. Remember Perception and reality are not two separate battle. They are now part of combined arms. You lose the battle of perception, you lose on the ground.

Words from a friend, and former batchmate, andd an award winning Research Assistant at one of the best Unis in USA. Thought to share.

Pakistanis masquerading as Americans online, simple as that. GoI did the right thing as the operations are still going on and they have proof of their claims.

 

[IndiaRising]

In all honesty, not my words. I do not necessarily agree with his opinion. Just wanted to put out the feelings of a substantial part of the Indian diaspora, at the shoddy perception management by GOI, IAF_MCC. An MBA student could have done better.

If you expect Indian jernails to become effective at psy-ops, you are asking for the moon lol

 

[mist_consecutive]

The Indian Air force and GOI failed, and failed humiliatingly, on 27th. No two opinions about it and no excuses regarding this disgraceful performance.

They forgot the one cardinal rule when dealing with pathological liers and a post truth world: In a battle between perception and reality, perception wins, everytime.

Nobody cares what you did, or what happened. Pakistanis for certain don't care, and as has been demonstrated, neither does the rest of the world. Your "facts" and "claims", not backed by incontrovertible proof or systematic propaganda, can't hold candle to the claims of a jihadi rabid dog. In fact, international media won't even bother publishing your claims. That's how low the credibility is,

So now, atleast to the world outside India, you have an incompetent air force that specializes in losing and being shot down, Reality be damned. That's how the perception of IAF will now be shaped as.

I hope that MKI kill patch and that pic is put on posters near every single airbase in the country, so that everyone from the higher command and the grass roots airmen, know how shamefully they have been defeated. Doesn't matter what happened in reality, or how bravely IAF pilots acted. To 75% of the world who cares to read, the IAF had its aircraft shot down, its pilot arrested, then freed as mercy.

Remember that shame. Remember Perception and reality are not two separate battle. They are now part of combined arms. You lose the battle of perception, you lose on the ground.

Words from a friend, and former batchmate, andd an award winning Research Assistant at one of the best Unis in USA. Thought to share.

I know your post will be hated, and told that reality is what matters, and we are hammering pakis relentlessly, but all these covert actions are for nothing. Bakis have an infinite supply of brain dead jihadis which they can use to replenish for their dead personnel, no matter how much casualties they face.

In international media and world's perception, we are now a weak country with 3rd-grade Airforce, junk Russian hardware and we got our ass handed over by superior pakistani airforce, having advanced "American" hardware. During fog of war on 27th, both India and Pakistan claimed kills. However, as soon as they paraded our pilot and crashed jet, whole world media took their words as gospels of truth and paraded their lies in international media, and our claims were ignored. Even Russia's media was printing pakistani lies.

So, there you have it, folks. This will go down as eternal shame in the history of IAF. And Pakistanis will leave no stones unturned to compare it to their 1971 POW surrender.
This time, honestly, I have to give it to Pakistanis. They handled and won the social media war, with Gafoora peddling misinformation, and our GOI and Armed forces equally lazy and incompetent in handling such information warfare.

 

[singhboy98]

In all honesty, not my words. I do not necessarily agree with his opinion. Just wanted to put out the feelings of a substantial part of the Indian diaspora, at the shoddy perception management by GOI, IAF_MCC. An MBA student could have done better.

I know right. In these days of hybrid warfare, information warfare plays a very important role in any conflict. IMHO, Kargil was an inflection point for India in this aspect because not only was our message delivered to us (Indians) VERY effectively but also to the Jaahils across the border. We won both on the ground as well in the minds. With people like Doval and ilk managing affairs now, we could only have gotten better at this.

And this is why I think the brain dead porki awaam is being lead right into an ambush. They are being pumped up so much on the non-existent valor of their Jaahil fauz, that when it will be that much more painful when the facade is blown away by us. Let's wait and watch.

 

[mist_consecutive]

If this operation, whatever our GOI is saying, is still going on, gets cold with no other input in MSM, our prestige as competent airforce to the world is gone.
We need to release credible proof to MSM of their F-16 downing, either official words from USA/Lockheed Martin, or guncam/radar video to F-16 being chased & downed. Or, we need to shoot down few of their jets, preferably Junk fighters or F-16s and parade them with equal jollification or more as they did with our jet.

 

[Srinivas_K]

If this operation, whatever our GOI is saying, is still going on, gets cold with no other input in MSM, our prestige as competent airforce to the world is gone.
We need to release credible proof to MSM of their F-16 downing, either official words from USA/Lockheed Martin, or guncam/radar video to F-16 being chased & downed. Or, we need to shoot down few of their jets, preferably Junk fighters or F-16s and parade them with equal jollification or more as they did with our jet.

What prestige you are talking about?

GoI already confirmed they shot down F16 of PAF and briefed the diplomats all over the world after the events. Which is more than enough.

Pakistanis think like that because they cannot live with out boasting and pathological lies.

IAF went in 80 km and struck the terror targets and safely returned, which is not an easy feat!

 

[Snowcat]

I know your post will be hated, and told that reality is what matters, and we are hammering pakis relentlessly, but all these covert actions are for nothing. Bakis have an infinite supply of brain dead jihadis which they can use to replenish for their dead personnel, no matter how much casualties they face.

In international media and world's perception, we are now a weak country with 3rd-grade Airforce, junk Russian hardware and we got our ass handed over by superior pakistani airforce, having advanced "American" hardware. During fog of war on 27th, both India and Pakistan claimed kills. However, as soon as they paraded our pilot and crashed jet, whole world media took their words as gospels of truth and paraded their lies in international media, and our claims were ignored. Even Russia's media was printing pakistani lies.

So, there you have it, folks. This will go down as eternal shame in the history of IAF. And Pakistanis will leave no stones unturned to compare it to their 1971 POW surrender.
This time, honestly, I have to give it to Pakistanis. They handled and won the social media war, with Gafoora peddling misinformation, and our GOI and Armed forces equally lazy and incompetent in handling such information warfare.

They are not disclosing information as the operations are still going on. Why can't you people just grasp that. It's more like you guys are getting more affected by the BS news coming across the border either via tweets or other forums. Pakistan has been a lie peddler since it got independence.
According to me , indian defence forces are handling it the way I expect a superpower should. They aren't affected by the propaganda and just moving on doing their business. I am sure they will bring out the news when the time is right.