IAF MiG-21 shoots down Pakistani F-16

[Karthi]

Not even close, the US (and other countries) have been using AWACS, electronic warfare and both long and short range missiles since the Vietnamese War all the way through Operation Eldorado (Libya), Grenada, Falkland War, Gulf War, Yugoslavia, Iraq 2003, Syria, Yemen and even against Pakistan during the Bin Laden raid. Also when I say Syria I mean many countries including the United States, Turkey, Israel and Russia. They all use AWACS, jammers, and have fired missiles on other aircraft or drones.

For historical context AWACS was used during the Vietnamese war which was the EC-211 Warning Star.

Electric warfare was A-6 Prowler, F-105 Thunder chief and F-111

Fighters were many but mostly F-4s and they carried AIm-9s for short range and AIM-7s for long range.

When was US , Russia or any another country engaged in an aerial war with a number of Aircrafts engaged each other using BVR ,WVR, EW AWACS etc and shoot down each other using their top notch Fighters. I mean actual battle not against far Inferior adversaries

 

[Neptune]

When was US , Russia or any another country engaged in an aerial war with a number of Aircrafts engaged each other using BVR ,WVR, EW AWACS etc and shoot down each other using their top notch Fighters. I mean actual battle not against far Inferior adversaries

Read my post again, one of many examples is Vietnam and the Gulf. Those air engagements made the the skirmish between India and Pakistan look insignificant. During operational Linebacker and Rolling Thunder hundreds of aircraft from both sides were used and shot down in a high intensity conflict involving everything you mentioned including SEADS.

 

[Karthi]

Read my post again, one of many examples is Vietnam and the Gulf. Those air engagements made the the skirmish between India and Pakistan look insignificant. During operational Linebacker and Rolling Thunder hundreds of aircraft from both sides were used and shot down in a high intensity conflict involving everything you mentioned including SEADS.

Which EW suite was used in that time , and what kind AWACS was used to support the Aircrafts (Both side), Which BVR & WVR was used by the two force's.

 

[Hellfire]

At around 9:30am on February 27, IAF flight controllers noticed a large package of 24 PAF combat aircraft taking off in a matter of 15 minutes from three different air bases.

Incorrect. The 1st aircrafts took off at 0855 am. Aircrafts were spaced in take offs by Pakistan so as to give an appearance of another of feints. Had they taken off in 15 minutes, the sortie rates would have been dead give away.

Pitted against them were two of the IAF’s upgraded Mirage-2000INs and four MiG-21 Bisons flying north of the Pir Panjal Range, and four Su-30MKIs to the south of the Range.

Why not add Mig-29s while at it? There were only 2 Su-30 MKIs and 2 Mirage 2000s at the time in air. 02 Mig 21s were subsequently scrambled off ORPs and then next 02 Mig-21s. That was the strength in air at the time of the actual confrontation, just as Mig-29s took to air and other aircrafts were mobilized.

Targets selected by the PAF for the air-strikes were the Indian Army posts at Bhimber Gali (elevation of 5,479 feet), Krishna Ghati Top (Nangi Tekri) at a height of 4,665 feet, Potha at an elevation of 4,073 feet, and an ammunition storage area in Narian (belonging to the 25 Infantry Division of the Indian Army) at an elevation of 2,000 feet. These targets, falling in India’s Rajouri sector, were deliberately selected for the sake of establishing Pakistan’s ‘moral; ascendancy’ along this portion of the LoC—given the fact that it is from these areas that the Indian Army dominates its opposing adversary’s Battal sector, which is located at lower altitudes.]

Retard logic. Moral ascendancy with fighters having to come within 4 kms of LC to hit targets they could have targeted from over Islamabad itself?

However, the moment the intruding PAF F-16s gained altitude for crossing into the areas southeast of the Pir Panjal Range and approached their designated targets in Jammu at altitudes varying from 5,000 feet to 10,000 feet in order to launch the Raptor-IIDs, they were detected by the A-50I PHALCON by 10.25am,

Who is this genius!!!!!

Rest I won't even bother dissecting.

 

[Holy Triad]

Interesting thread that proves abinandan wasn't admitted in cmh as dgispr claimed.

Part of Doosra banda expose

 

[Karthi]

The JF-17 Blk-lll and Project Azm should actually be not taken lightly only because of the tactics used by Pakistan and India and showed by both in the air skirmishes of Feb 26/27.

The IAF seems to have divided fighter fleet into 3 tiers based on their capabilities and engages the enemy with these tiered formations based on perceived threat level. Why do you think was MiG-21 a first respondent to the infiltrating PAF F-16s and JF-17s ?

The Tier 1 of IAF comprises of MiG-27 and MiG-21s for strike and interception roles respectively.(MiG-27s phased out now) The Tier 2 comprises of MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 for interception and strike roles respectively and in similar senses the Tier 3 comprises of Jaguar and Su-30MKI. The Jaguar being trusted upon with Nuclear weapons it is plausible that it will be guarded by MKI while on it's way.

But Pakistan despite also being an operator of vintage F-7s and Mirages is seen using F-16s and JF-17s more often and enabling them as a first response both in offense and defence. During Kargil War the initial Indian Air Force actions were performed by the Tier 1 force of MiG-21 and MiG-27 which ultimately led to some these getting shot down and pilots going missing, it was only after the Tier 2 being enabled the PAF didn't dare cross the path of Mirage 2000s covered by MiG-29s while on thier way.

In Future when PAF which is probably the only air force in the world which uses planes manufactured by a company owned by itself, would lable project Azm based stealthy looking platform as a fifth generation one despite being an incompletely matured platform just like JF-17 was pressed despite not having attained maturity.

Then this Fifth Generation Project Azm fighter being network enabled with Chinese AWACS could be seen pressed into offensive and defensive roles by PAF. If IAF still would enable its future Tier 1 force which God knows what will comprise of, IAF would definitely get it's old vintage aircrafts being shot down the Pakistani 5th generation Azm based fighter. The Chinese advanced missile system and an ability to be guided by an AWACS based radar instead on the onboard radar of the fighter can definately over power a 4th generation upgraded fighter. The Blk-lll JF-17 would be featuring technologies like AESA radar, advanced data link capabilities and HMDS and this being pressed into an offensive role could easily overpower a Tier 1 IAF Defending Force.

On February 27 the MiG-21s being the first respondent shows the loophole in our tacics. The worst of the IAF being available to defend against best of PAF. Despite such huge odds, Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman managing to chase them down and shoot down an F-16 makes him a true hero. A Hero who has been improperly armed and faced a big disparity. It is true that JF-17 Blk-lll won't be comparable to Dassault Rafale but doesn't have to face a Rafale is also a point of discussion.

The Future Indian Tier 1 would comprises of Tejas variants. Tier two would be of Rafale and AMCA, Tier 3 of Su-30 MKIs converted into strike roles and Fifth Generation Fighters (Probably Su-57).

 

[scatterStorm]

Which EW suite was used in that time , and what kind AWACS was used to support the Aircrafts (Both side), Which BVR & WVR was used by the two force's.

No Awacs were used, there were rumors that F4 Phantoms used BVR but no, AIM7 only.

 

[Foxbat]

In Future when PAF which is probably the only air force in the world which uses planes manufactured by a company owned by itself, would label project Azm based stealthy looking platform as a fifth generation one despite being an incompletely matured platform just like JF-17 was pressed despite not having attained maturity.

Then this Fifth Generation Project Azm fighter being network enabled with Chinese AWACS could be seen pressed into offensive and defensive roles by PAF.

No one who really knows about development of military aircraft takes Project Azm seriously. A nation which never developed its own moped or motorcycle will suddenly develop a 5th generation stealth fighter? That too a nation which is bankrupt and keeps begging the IMF and other nations for bailouts to prevent its economy from collapsing !

 

[Holy Triad]

 

[tsunami]

Looks like an 11 years old video... Search Mirage vs F-16 dogfight on YouTube.

 

[Defcon 1]

View attachment 47103



The JF-17 Blk-lll and Project Azm should actually be not taken lightly only because of the tactics used by Pakistan and India and showed by both in the air skirmishes of Feb 26/27.

The IAF seems to have divided fighter fleet into 3 tiers based on their capabilities and engages the enemy with these tiered formations based on perceived threat level. Why do you think was MiG-21 a first respondent to the infiltrating PAF F-16s and JF-17s ?

The Tier 1 of IAF comprises of MiG-27 and MiG-21s for strike and interception roles respectively.(MiG-27s phased out now) The Tier 2 comprises of MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 for interception and strike roles respectively and in similar senses the Tier 3 comprises of Jaguar and Su-30MKI. The Jaguar being trusted upon with Nuclear weapons it is plausible that it will be guarded by MKI while on it's way.

But Pakistan despite also being an operator of vintage F-7s and Mirages is seen using F-16s and JF-17s more often and enabling them as a first response both in offense and defence. During Kargil War the initial Indian Air Force actions were performed by the Tier 1 force of MiG-21 and MiG-27 which ultimately led to some these getting shot down and pilots going missing, it was only after the Tier 2 being enabled the PAF didn't dare cross the path of Mirage 2000s covered by MiG-29s while on thier way.

In Future when PAF which is probably the only air force in the world which uses planes manufactured by a company owned by itself, would lable project Azm based stealthy looking platform as a fifth generation one despite being an incompletely matured platform just like JF-17 was pressed despite not having attained maturity.

Then this Fifth Generation Project Azm fighter being network enabled with Chinese AWACS could be seen pressed into offensive and defensive roles by PAF. If IAF still would enable its future Tier 1 force which God knows what will comprise of, IAF would definitely get it's old vintage aircrafts being shot down the Pakistani 5th generation Azm based fighter. The Chinese advanced missile system and an ability to be guided by an AWACS based radar instead on the onboard radar of the fighter can definately over power a 4th generation upgraded fighter. The Blk-lll JF-17 would be featuring technologies like AESA radar, advanced data link capabilities and HMDS and this being pressed into an offensive role could easily overpower a Tier 1 IAF Defending Force.

On February 27 the MiG-21s being the first respondent shows the loophole in our tacics. The worst of the IAF being available to defend against best of PAF. Despite such huge odds, Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman managing to chase them down and shoot down an F-16 makes him a true hero. A Hero who has been improperly armed and faced a big disparity. It is true that JF-17 Blk-lll won't be comparable to Dassault Rafale but doesn't have to face a Rafale is also a point of discussion.

The Future Indian Tier 1 would comprises of Tejas variants. Tier two would be of Rafale and AMCA, Tier 3 of Su-30 MKIs converted into strike roles and Fifth Generation Fighters (Probably Su-57).

Any evidence of this tier concept that you are talking about?

Anyways, few corrections in your post:
1. Mig 27 was never ever an interceptor. It has always been a ground attack aircraft.
2. Mirage 2000 joined later in kargil because of the non availability of LGBs before.
3. Mig 29 was always involved in kargil for A2A role and achieved multiple radar locks over F16
4. Finally, the reason Mig 21s were sent to intercept the PAF on 27th feb 2019 has more to do with availablity than any fictional tiers. BS Dhanoa has himself said that had MMRCA 1 been signed on time, Rafales would have been sent for interception instead of Mig 21

 

[fire starter]

 

[Flying Dagger]

Porks are getting humiliated royally everywhere.
And they deserve it.

Why Are Most Of The Countries Suddenly Banning Pakistani Pilots?

Pakistan's national carrier has grounded almost a third of its pilots after a government investigation revealed that hundreds across the country had fake licenses and were not qualified to fly.

eurasiantimes.com

 

[Illusive]

Porks are getting humiliated royally everywhere.
And they deserve it.

Why Are Most Of The Countries Suddenly Banning Pakistani Pilots?

Pakistan's national carrier has grounded almost a third of its pilots after a government investigation revealed that hundreds across the country had fake licenses and were not qualified to fly.

eurasiantimes.com

This country has no credibility at all. Big swindlers all of them, never trust a paki. They believe in a lie and spread it shamelessly.

Bc sab ek doosre ko chutiya banate rehte hai. Army swindles nation, their pm international banks, and their people each other.

I feel for the likes of hussain haqqani , tarek fatheh etc who have to associate themselves with these swindlers.

 

[fire starter]

Pak fanboys dont understand just how big a strategic gamble PAF has taken with the 27th Feb strikes. Faced with the insistent pressure for retaliation from PA brass against a much superior AF, PAF basically emptied out its strategic inventory to execute a tactical strike. PAF exposed its entire tier 1 ELINT, SIGINT, ECM, ECCM, COMJAM systems to IAF/NTRO/ARC/IA-SIGINT snooping assets. Understand this, PAF has spent something close to 25 years and several billions of $$ to slowly build up these assets. They were meant to establish strategic surprise in a short war. By committing all of it to one isolated engagement as against a limited war scenario as originally planned, PAF has lost the ability to execute a strategic level surprise with these equipment. We have spent the previous year analysing and developing countermeasures to the digital signatures of these assets. In time all ECCM asets will carry within its library the digital signatures of these equipments. Their ability to inflict strategic shock on IAF is gone.

We estimate it will take a minimum of 3-4 years for the cheaper of the systems to be replaced, and upto 10 years for the more complex, expensive of the equipment to be replaced. PAF specialists have already been observed in South Africa, Sweden, France, Germany, Ukraine & China scouring for such equipment. PAF & probably PA is gambling that such a situation will not develop again before PAF can replenish their strategic inventory.

If you were of a critical mind, you would be able to put 2 and 2 together and be able to explain IK's repeated panic attacks, PA's general fear to escalate and the lack of a major terror attack over the past year. But of course that;s not going to happen

 

[indiatester]

Pak fanboys dont understand just how big a strategic gamble PAF has taken with the 27th Feb strikes. Faced with the insistent pressure for retaliation from PA brass against a much superior AF, PAF basically emptied out its strategic inventory to execute a tactical strike. PAF exposed its entire tier 1 ELINT, SIGINT, ECM, ECCM, COMJAM systems to IAF/NTRO/ARC/IA-SIGINT snooping assets. Understand this, PAF has spent something close to 25 years and several billions of $$ to slowly build up these assets. They were meant to establish strategic surprise in a short war. By committing all of it to one isolated engagement as against a limited war scenario as originally planned, PAF has lost the ability to execute a strategic level surprise with these equipment. We have spent the previous year analysing and developing countermeasures to the digital signatures of these assets. In time all ECCM asets will carry within its library the digital signatures of these equipments. Their ability to inflict strategic shock on IAF is gone.

We estimate it will take a minimum of 3-4 years for the cheaper of the systems to be replaced, and upto 10 years for the more complex, expensive of the equipment to be replaced. PAF specialists have already been observed in South Africa, Sweden, France, Germany, Ukraine & China scouring for such equipment. PAF & probably PA is gambling that such a situation will not develop again before PAF can replenish their strategic inventory.

If you were of a critical mind, you would be able to put 2 and 2 together and be able to explain IK's repeated panic attacks, PA's general fear to escalate and the lack of a major terror attack over the past year. But of course that;s not going to happen

Too simplistic don't you think?
If just one raid causes so much damage wrt digital signatures, then that risk would exist for all air forces. That would make them a one time use force.

 

[IndianHawk]

Too simplistic don't you think?
If just one raid causes so much damage wrt digital signatures, then that risk would exist for all air forces. That would make them a one time use force.

One raid wouldn't cause this if paki executed it silently with minimum assets involved.

But again their technological backwardness came in way. They had no credible night attack capability so they had to strike in daytime.

They had no long range effective operational munitions so they had to come quite close of loc.

They could only fire first generation dumb bombs which couldn't reach target.

And they had to keep their awacs on toes to keep an eye on IAF even then Chinese awacs failed them completely and they had to double down on Saab eyrie.

And yet a mig21 could ingress through their surveillance and shot down an f16.

Their air defense was already proven useless previous night by mirages striking 80km inside Pakistan without facing any challenges.

Next day their offensive action was also proven bogus.

 

[WARREN SS]

Pak fanboys dont understand just how big a strategic gamble PAF has taken with the 27th Feb strikes. Faced with the insistent pressure for retaliation from PA brass against a much superior AF, PAF basically emptied out its strategic inventory to execute a tactical strike. PAF exposed its entire tier 1 ELINT, SIGINT, ECM, ECCM, COMJAM systems to IAF/NTRO/ARC/IA-SIGINT snooping assets. Understand this, PAF has spent something close to 25 years and several billions of $$ to slowly build up these assets. They were meant to establish strategic surprise in a short war. By committing all of it to one isolated engagement as against a limited war scenario as originally planned, PAF has lost the ability to execute a strategic level surprise with these equipment. We have spent the previous year analysing and developing countermeasures to the digital signatures of these assets. In time all ECCM asets will carry within its library the digital signatures of these equipments. Their ability to inflict strategic shock on IAF is gone.

We estimate it will take a minimum of 3-4 years for the cheaper of the systems to be replaced, and upto 10 years for the more complex, expensive of the equipment to be replaced. PAF specialists have already been observed in South Africa, Sweden, France, Germany, Ukraine & China scouring for such equipment. PAF & probably PA is gambling that such a situation will not develop again before PAF can replenish their strategic inventory.

If you were of a critical mind, you would be able to put 2 and 2 together and be able to explain IK's repeated panic attacks, PA's general fear to escalate and the lack of a major terror attack over the past year. But of course that;s not going to happen

That Is Doesn't Exclude

IAF reluctance To Upgrade AEWCS Aircraft's And BVR Stocks in These years Relying Heavily on Ground based radars

The Whole 27 Feb And China Skirmish is Wake Up Call for the Military Apparatus that you Need to be Battle ready 24x7 And 365 days For Short scale war

And you cannot face A modern adversary In Mig-21 relic

 

[cyclops]

...doosra bhaag jaega...
(the other one will escape).

Regardless of the denial that the citizenry has been infused with, PAF knows Abhinandan was the one that struck the doosra banda.

 

[Tang]

Pak fanboys dont understand just how big a strategic gamble PAF has taken with the 27th Feb strikes. Faced with the insistent pressure for retaliation from PA brass against a much superior AF, PAF basically emptied out its strategic inventory to execute a tactical strike. PAF exposed its entire tier 1 ELINT, SIGINT, ECM, ECCM, COMJAM systems to IAF/NTRO/ARC/IA-SIGINT snooping assets. Understand this, PAF has spent something close to 25 years and several billions of $$ to slowly build up these assets. They were meant to establish strategic surprise in a short war. By committing all of it to one isolated engagement as against a limited war scenario as originally planned, PAF has lost the ability to execute a strategic level surprise with these equipment. We have spent the previous year analysing and developing countermeasures to the digital signatures of these assets. In time all ECCM asets will carry within its library the digital signatures of these equipments. Their ability to inflict strategic shock on IAF is gone.

We estimate it will take a minimum of 3-4 years for the cheaper of the systems to be replaced, and upto 10 years for the more complex, expensive of the equipment to be replaced. PAF specialists have already been observed in South Africa, Sweden, France, Germany, Ukraine & China scouring for such equipment. PAF & probably PA is gambling that such a situation will not develop again before PAF can replenish their strategic inventory.

If you were of a critical mind, you would be able to put 2 and 2 together and be able to explain IK's repeated panic attacks, PA's general fear to escalate and the lack of a major terror attack over the past year. But of course that;s not going to happen

Can you explain further please?