IAF MiG-21 shoots down Pakistani F-16

[scatterStorm]

Dont engage with the troll. Keep putting relevant info in the thread. He is here to keep putting old info and he has no knowledge at all of defence. He said the same ludicrous claims of ejection seats having parachute of their own. And didn't know Pentagon was the HQ of DoD of US

He hasn't replied to me yet... so his F16D going into 4th dimension is still an ongoing theory gajab aadmi hai... physics bhul gaya hoga shayad.

 

[Sayaaf]

Dont engage with the troll. Keep putting relevant info in the thread. He is here to keep putting old info and he has no knowledge at all of defence. He said the same ludicrous claims of ejection seats having parachute of their own. And didn't know Pentagon was the HQ of DoD of US

Just to quickly answer this. Even after sharing a video of Pakistan showing Mig-21 Ejection seat with a parachute. And this fact is backed up by the Libyan Mig-21 shot down. The twitter showed that Ejection seat was coming down with a parachute.

You havent debunked both of the videos and are claiming others to make ludicrous claims. Dont be like IAF. That denies everything in the face of lot of photographic and video evidences. Bring something to discredit Pakistan airforce video and That Libyan Mig-21 Crash video. Then talk about me making ludicrous claims.

 

[Sayaaf]

He hasn't replied to me yet... so his F16D going into 4th dimension is still an ongoing theory gajab aadmi hai... physics bhul gaya hoga shayad.

Where is the proof Pakistan Used F-16D? It nullifies your entire argument and discredit you as a poster who doesn't know anything what Pakistan used on 27 FEB. Hence nothing to reply to a post containing lot of false info.

 

[Defcon 1]

1.Now it is time for India to wait for our response. The response will come at the point and time of our choosing where our civil military leadership decides, and, as a matter of fact, has decided.

"It is your turn now to wait and get ready for our surprise."- Asif Ghafoor on 26 FEB 2019



2. IAF strikes: India does not want to see further escalation, says Sushma Swaraj on 27 Feb 2019


What real war was won that you congratulating India for? India couldnt meet its objective, failed at defending their airspace, goofed up their information warfare. What single thing went right for India that you can claim your winning upon ?

Killing 100s of terrorists and destroying your frontline F16 are some of the things we can claim winning upon.

Anyways at its very core, the objective was to increase the cost of supporting terrorism for Pakistan. If anyone has doubt about whether this objective was achieved or not, they should look at helplessness of Pakistani response after article 370 was revoked.

Rest, morons are free to celebrate their imaginary victories by constructing museums. Indians are happy as long as we know that we can now drive things in Kashmir. Next up is delimitation to increase seat share of Jammu, and then a BJP supported CM in the next assembly elections.

Not to mention that the 27th feb skirmish highlighted our deficiencies in ECM and BVR and we have already moved swiftly to rectify them. Pakistan has learned nothing since they "WON".

 

[Hellfire]

It was Indo-pak confrontation when a fidayeen blew bus of CRPF personnel. There wasn't any diplomatic effort needed because whole world including UN knows Pakistan sponsors terrorism.

What did you understand by my statement when I said this:

The reason for strict limitations imposed on IAF with the ROE even after the strike on Balakote and knowing that Pakistan will launch a response as early as within 72 hours was to 'manage' the escalation wherein Pakistan is denied the opportunity to portray the previous day strike as an Indo-Pak confrontation over Kashmir thereby creating unnecessary diplomatic pressure and causing us to expend diplomatic capital on offsetting the repercussions.

And what was the Indian raison d'etre put forth for the conduct of Balakote Strike?

Additionally, has 'knowing' helped the cause? Or is it the result of extensive diplomatic offensive launched by the GoI since 2014 to change the way that Indo-Pak issue is dealt with by others?

Infact, I will say 27 Feb and aftermath was bigger deterrent for Pakistan to carry out such acts in India than 26 Feb balakot strikes. The fear of real war hanging over bakis head (potential loss of pok as well) really shook them in their boots.

You are, like many other Indian defence enthusiasts, sadly mistaken over this assumption.

Till date Indian drones fly freely over PoK and PAF is nowhere to be seen. Is it because of Balakot or 27 feb?

You tell me. And I know Hellfire/Falcon has been saying it since May (?) is it?

 

[Hellfire]

Where is the proof Pakistan Used F-16D? It nullifies your entire argument and discredit you as a poster who doesn't know anything what Pakistan used on 27 FEB. Hence nothing to reply to a post containing lot of false info.

By that same logic, isn't DG ISPR, PM Mr Niazi, Maj Gen Ghafoor, Pakistani Defence Enthusiasts and so called OSINTs also discredited? For, they all in an unison, denied use of F-16s, denied firing of AMRAAM, then tried to pass off the wreckage as that of a fragment shipped to Taiwan, only to be given a flat denial by the Taiwanese in an official statement and then of course, the famous drop tank of F-16 and the engine casing being passed off as Mig-21 ....?

 

[LurkerBaba]

Please discuss Kargil etc and the Pakis being pathological liars here https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/pakistani-lies-denial-thread.48130/page-42

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Then Why India has to take drastic steps of altering the status of Kashmir and still to date carrying out the artillery strikes

You actually need to ask that mate? Kashmir conflict hasn't been free from third party interventions most of the time.
Had it been run bilateral and only between India and Pakistan, it would have been solved entirely on India's terms long ago. PoK would directly connect India to Wakhan corridor and give it direct access to Central Asia and middleast.
External pressures, obviously from world powers who would have tendency to prevent a regional power. Partition of India was done keeping this strategic factor in mind. Be their intervention in 1965 war that resulted India to return territory to Pakistan or their attempt to intervene and prevent Pakistan's dissolution in 1971. That war obviously left India only regional power around Indian Ocean Region. There have been repeated threats and requests to India by former USSR, NATO and PRC to not to cross LoC at all during various wars and stand offs. India gaining rest of Kashmir only strengthens its leverage. And that's why they always had a tendency to make India accept at least PoK as a part of Pakistan.
The change of status of Kashmir to a Union territory to have absolute control, has more to do with those threats than Pakistan.

Even if we entirely believe the Pakistani version of 27 Feb. confrontation, we both know that it was an instance of attrition warfare where India didn't even attempt to use its actual strength. Obviously neither likes of MiG-21 make up bulk of IAF, nor any other plane Pakistan's 70 odd F-16s, meet even standards of obsolete planes of IAF.

If you don't suffer from IDONTLIKEIT syndrome formo arguments and are a real defence enthusiast, you would we aware that gap between strategic capabilities between India & Pakistan is too high and still expanding, to let Pakistan survive a full blown war without any foreign intervention. Even this crisis alone, India went ahead to start a war while Pakistan kept on writing countless letters to UNSC for help and repeatedly "begging" UNSC for an intervention in entire episode.

Pakistan is relatively a very weak state and no amount of PR will ever be able to speak louder than statistics.

World needs to dissuade India from its war-mongering after Pulwama, Qureshi tells UNSC chief

"India must refrain from escalating the situation and enter into dialogue with Pakistan and Kashmiris," says minister.

www.dawn.com

Continued such statements for even many months which Pakistani fanboys continued to ignore as per their comfort.

I have given up on Pakistanis though. A country where a little inconclusive skirmish can be celebrated as a national achievement with museums, indeed that military would have little to show. It also reflects that how desperate Pakistanis are and prefer to feel better than doing better. Be it an LoC engagement against a deep air strike, linear implosion bombs against thermonuclear bombs and complete set of all kinds of reactors and other fields or be it comparing and calling better a small array of Pakistani ballistic and cruise missiles (MTCR score 39/94) against India's (MTCR score 90/94) who makes nearly every kind of missile system in world. It's just an obsession to get hyphenated and call themselves equal.

I don't wish to argue on topic anymore, despite not being out of words but rather because of responding of same lines and tones over and over, and over that like 20 members reply within time I write something.

 

[LurkerBaba]

I don't wish to argue on topic anymore, despite not being out of words but rather because of responding of same lines and tones over and over, and over that like 20 members reply within time I write something.

Yeah I think @Sayaaf has served his purpose. The arguments are mostly repetitive. Banned for a month (for now)

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Didn't Indian Media reported Su-30 Crash Initially as well No Jet has been crashed inside Pakistan and all the pilots are accounted for? This was claimed within the 3 hours after the skrimish

The same logic of yours to report applies here. Obviously after firing AMRAAM, Pakistanis would have celebrated and news must have been diffused to that amounted to nothing few hours later as Su30 had jammed missiles.

Claim of downing an MKI doesn't even have an iota of evidences unlike in F-16 where indications are uncertain.

Villagers confused the parachute of ejection seat as 2nd pilot.

If we want to take words of ignorant villagers as gospel

I think I already played villagers down in my post and referred Asif Ghafoor there who talked about relocating to different pilots to distinct locations.

Just so Indian narrative requires some addition and deletion of some

Did you even count how many times of hit and trial of official statements it took on Pakistani side to draft their official narrative? 5 times in first single week and then repeated U turns for a month.

 

[Ajax01]

Just to quickly answer this. Even after sharing a video of Pakistan showing Mig-21 Ejection seat with a parachute. And this fact is backed up by the Libyan Mig-21 shot down. The twitter showed that Ejection seat was coming down with a parachute.

You havent debunked both of the videos and are claiming others to make ludicrous claims. Dont be like IAF. That denies everything in the face of lot of photographic and video evidences. Bring something to discredit Pakistan airforce video and That Libyan Mig-21 Crash video. Then talk about me making ludicrous claims.

Really I shouldn't educate those who won't listen. The Ejection Seats have a box behind them that keeps the parachute of THE PILOT not of the seat. When the pilot is on the seat it comes down with a parachute till a certain altitude. Then the pilot seat separation sequence starts and the seat drops like a rock. The seat dont have a parachute of its own.
Syrian Mig21 ?? Next point is the people on the ground saw and described the pilots perhaps seats have faces now? Third Gafoora claimed 2nd pilot died on 1st May perhaps he was still under some drug? Perhaps all of them were?
Last was your masterpiece Pentagon said there was no count but the count was done by DoD so Pentagon wouldn't know. Lol Pentagon is the HQ of DoD. Good Riddance.

 

[Hellfire]

Really I shouldn't educate those who won't listen. The Ejection Seats have a box behind them that keeps the parachute of THE PILOT not of the seat. When the pilot is on the seat it comes down with a parachute till a certain altitude. Then the pilot seat separation sequence starts and the seat drops like a rock. The seat dont have a parachute of its own.

You might want to recheck that

 

[Absolut_Vodka]

What did you understand by my statement when I said this:

That Pakistan can blackmail another country using terrorism, putting gun to your head in negotiation.

And what was the Indian raison d'etre put forth for the conduct of Balakote Strike?

Additionally, has 'knowing' helped the cause? Or is it the result of extensive diplomatic offensive launched by the GoI since 2014 to change the way that Indo-Pak issue is dealt with by others?

No reason other than we can also behave like Americans and violate Pakistan sovereignty at will. When Pakistan itself admitted no terrorist camps on its soil then what was rationale for IAF to go inside Balakot?

Not diplomatic, it's our market that's putting weight behind our words.

You are, like many other Indian defence enthusiasts, sadly mistaken over this assumption.

Why do you think Pakistan is sitting on its ass since abrogation of art 370. 35A, bifurcation of state and new domicile law? It's because of what we intend to do after 27 Feb which is a guess but still Pakistan got message.

Bigger Deterrent for Pakistan? Then Why India has to take drastic steps of altering the status of Kashmir and still to date carrying out the artillery strikes?

Indians are not ready for war either. It is a two street for both Pakistan and India.

I saw what you did there!! Masked your inability/inaction as India's desperation.

 

[Ajax01]

You might want to recheck that

This is how the ejection starts. First Canopy Severance then the rockets fire to clear the aircraft. Then the drouge gun shoots the drouge parachute (smaller one) this helps with the decelaration. At a particular altitude the pilot seat sepration sequence kicks in . The drouge parachute pulls out the main parachute and the pilot seperates from the seat. There are no other parachutes attached to the seat itself. If you can give evidence pointing to something different I will gladly correct myself.

 

[scatterStorm]

Where is the proof Pakistan Used F-16D? It nullifies your entire argument and discredit you as a poster who doesn't know anything what Pakistan used on 27 FEB. Hence nothing to reply to a post containing lot of false info.

PAF has a history of towing foreign fighter pilots too. Remember Chuck Yeager, ring some bells! Seems fair to me, so why your F16D weren't utilized ain't a possibility?

 

[Hellfire]

This is how the ejection starts. First Canopy Severance then the rockets fire to clear the aircraft. Then the drouge gun shoots the drouge parachute (smaller one) this helps with the decelaration. At a particular altitude the pilot seat sepration sequence kicks in . The drouge parachute pulls out the main parachute and the pilot seperates from the seat. There are no other parachutes attached to the seat itself. If you can give evidence pointing to something different I will gladly correct myself.

Apologies. I misread and assumed that drogue had not been mentioned.

 

[Hellfire]

That Pakistan can blackmail another country using terrorism, putting gun to your head in negotiation.

No. It was that the Indian narrative of the strike on Balakote being an anti terror and nothing to do with Kashmir issue, had to be maintained. It is the reason that ROEs were strictly adhered to.

It made little sense allowing that narrative to be obscured by another Indo-Pak slugfest

No reason other than we can also behave like Americans and violate Pakistan sovereignty at will. When Pakistan itself admitted no terrorist camps on its soil then what was rationale for IAF to go inside Balakot?

We can. With consequences.

Not diplomatic, it's our market that's putting weight behind our words.

We have been a market, with greater potential, since 1991. To assume that market alone drives your ability to get things your way, then that logic should have seen China occupying large swathes of territories that t lays claim to.

It is always your diplomatic ability to stitch together 'an alliance' over a course of action, that actually determines your ability to act without 'costs' being imposed on you.

Why do you think Pakistan is sitting on its ass since abrogation of art 370. 35A, bifurcation of state and new domicile law? It's because of what we intend to do after 27 Feb which is a guess but still Pakistan got message.

I am quite surprised to note this rationale being put forth by you.

Is it this, as you claim, or the fact that Pakistan can not do anything on an issue which is 'disputed' as per them as any military moves will be considered an act of military aggression with serious repercussions for them? Conversely, why do you think there has been an uptick in level of violence inside the valley and along LC now, especially the latter? Because it serves their purpose that India loses its cool and strikes across a broader front across LC wherein India will be painted an aggressor. Why do you think that GoI has not sanctioned a strike across LC to retain ground?

 

[Hellfire]

This is how the ejection starts. First Canopy Severance then the rockets fire to clear the aircraft. Then the drouge gun shoots the drouge parachute (smaller one) this helps with the decelaration. At a particular altitude the pilot seat sepration sequence kicks in . The drouge parachute pulls out the main parachute and the pilot seperates from the seat. There are no other parachutes attached to the seat itself. If you can give evidence pointing to something different I will gladly correct myself.

Ah, now I recall why I posted that.

Your statement here:

Really I shouldn't educate those who won't listen. The Ejection Seats have a box behind them that keeps the parachute of THE PILOT not of the seat. When the pilot is on the seat it comes down with a parachute till a certain altitude. Then the pilot seat separation sequence starts and the seat drops like a rock. The seat dont have a parachute of its own.

The drogue parachute is attached to the seat, and remains attached to it, right? Because the function of a drogue parachute is to slow the descent of the pilot (with the seat), stabilize it and ultimately assist in deployment of the main parachute (failure of the drogue results in severe injuries sustained as per studies available in Aerospace Medicine domain).

That is why technically, isn't drogue parachute a parachute still attached to the seat?

Just this bit. Obviously the seat still falls way faster than the pilot....

Just wanted this clarification

 

[mist_consecutive]

Secondly, civil aircrafts 'squawk' aka emit signals off transponders which identify them as such. There were AWACS on their side too, to identify the 'targets' or 'threats' and provide them situational awareness. And the other side has its share of bright people too. Not everytime are they as dumb as one would like to make them out to be.

Active-Radar BVR Missiles (Like AMRAAMs & R77), have their own radar turned-on on the final phase of chase (<30km), before that, they are guided by datalink to the launching aircraft. If somehow (or defending themselves), launching F-16s maneuver out and lose their radar lock on targetted IAF aircraft, the missile will turn on its radar early, potentially locking up on civilian jets (which has bigger RCS), if IAF jets are close.

Refer my reply earlier to WARREN SS will requote here:

The last aircraft to land in Srinagar as ATC Srinagar was quickly clearing the airspace to prevent exactly that, was an IL-76 ex 44 Sqn piloted by their CO. After that the engagement took place. (Note how precise the information has been given. Can give more tidbits but they are not for publicizing)

As for Indigo flight ... close miss? Who told you that?





For them their ROEs were changed by their leadership. This rationale does not hold.

The reason for strict limitations imposed on IAF with the ROE even after the strike on Balakote and knowing that Pakistan will launch a response as early as within 72 hours was to 'manage' the escalation wherein Pakistan is denied the opportunity to portray the previous day strike as an Indo-Pak confrontation over Kashmir thereby creating unnecessary diplomatic pressure and causing us to expend diplomatic capital on offsetting the repercussions.

All that was asked for from the 'uniformed services' was to do their job and not get carried away. Too many lives have been lost when 'excitement' of a kill leads a novice, yes a novice who has never seen battle, to take stupid steps.

To claim "unable to hear hence crossed" as a defence of undertaking a singular act which led to Pakistan almost getting in changing the narrative to Indo-Pak military confrontation over Kashmir, is farce at best as the officer should be questioned on this as to why he had no clue as to what his wingman was upto!

bold part, sorry but I have no reason to believe your claim (or if you have a source, show me!). Anyone can also lookup Indian Airforce squadrons and cite that.

Early-morning 10 AM is the time for many Srinagar inbound-outbound flights.

Who said that? When you about to go cold, but then logically you are still in the NEZ of an AIM120c, so if you turned back, there are chances of you getting shot down very high. So you haven't fired off your missiles, even if its within FOX2 NEZ and you've lost a jet with a man onboard, whose chances of surviving a seat ejection is slim, as not all pilots return to ground safely without injuries.

I had to say this, he had no choice too. Plus our comms were smudged by the PAF.

Actually, going cold is the most standard and safest method of avoiding BVR missiles.

 

[abhay rajput]

Who said that? When you about to go cold, but then logically you are still in the NEZ of an AIM120c, so if you turned back, there are chances of you getting shot down very high. So you haven't fired off your missiles, even if its within FOX2 NEZ and you've lost a jet with a man onboard, whose chances of surviving a seat ejection is slim, as not all pilots return to ground safely without injuries.

I had to say this, he had no choice too. Plus our comms were smudged by the PAF.

IAF training manual States to stay with wingman . If Vyas had stayed with him then they most probably would have gotten both aircrafts and Abhinandan mig21 would have survived.