DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[Chinmoy]

What's the capital cost of Heron and Rustom?

40 million per unit for Heron which includes ground station and subsystems too. Rustom is yet to go into production.

 

[johnj]

IA would induct QRSAM and VLSRSAM in numbers for sure. By SoKo system I believe you are talking about Biho. Now it is a point defence weapon unlike QRSAM. So no point is bringing in. But now it seems Biho would not come.

SPYDER-SR is a very much mobile system designed to engage targets on go just like QRSAM.

Spyder sr, what do you mean by that ? like nasaams, spyder uses aams, it's does't matter sr or not adding one vehicle with derby not going to change its size. like all indian sams, spyder and nasaams use rf sensor for early detection.
akash for army uses tracked version. spyder - i dont think so.[you can correct me]
Biho - right. its uses rf and eo sensors.

 

[India Super Power]

In case of fighter jets and artillery our forces have literally compromised their operational capabilities
Main point is there is no point to argue as nothing could be done right now even if our forces come to senses and looking at current attitude it's impossible
Anything if if if happens proactively even then this huge gap will remain for next 4-6 years
This makes us vulnerable and gives our enemy a good window to act

 

[THESIS THORON]

In case of fighter jets and artillery our forces have literally compromised their operational capabilities
Main point is there is no point to argue as nothing could be done right now even if our forces come to senses and looking at current attitude it's impossible
Anything if if if happens proactively even then this huge gap will remain for next 4-6 years
This makes us vulnerable and gives our enemy a good window to act

rumored production rate of atags -- 250guns per year

 

[India Super Power]

rumored production rate of atags -- 250guns per year

Surely but after 2-3 years of contract signing
They are not so complex so time will be less but 250 at contract signing is bit impractical for supply chain we have

 

[vishnugupt]

Now your level of ignorance is top notch. At the very first you are trying to run away from logic when you have mixed up the analogy of racing car with a war machine. I believe you have done it on purpose because you understood why I brought up the point. But anyhow you have to make your idiocy valid, so ...........

Now coming to second para, I believe you need to come into practical world first to understand how things work. When you are involving two production partners for prototype building, asking them to build the same prototype is simple wastage of resource. Join any MBA course and you would get to know more about project management.

Cursing IA/IAF for not having its own design bureau is something which I often do. But saying that they don't have one is again showing your ignorance in the matter. You can't come out with PSQR/GSQR unless and until you have a team who sits upon the design. But these QRs should come before project realization phase which sadly never happens and I do blame users on that.
But when you say that why IA requires something with so much capability as it is not a global power, then I must say friend, YOU HAVE LOST ALL YOUR MARBLES THERE.

Just tell me... Yes/No,
Can UN armed forces fight a war as Russia is fighting where absolutely nobody helping them ?? As UN Generals claim rhetorically "Prepared for any eventuality".

Suppose if We have to fight a war for months (4-5 months) against a competent enemy... Then according to your "Top Car in Circuit theory" we have 123 Tejas jets and 123 Rafale with limited parts ( Never know which country refuse to help).....then which Jet is going to be most effective and useful???

India would have been declared war against China on the day when our 20 soldiers killed on LAC. (Imagine If 20 soldiers have been killed by Pakistan at border) so tell us what stoped us?

India with over 50-60 Billions of dollar of budget for decades can't retaliate on border skirmish. This alone say lot about hollow bravado of UN Generals.

This is not only me or any other fanboy here but PM, President of India, MoD everyone is on same opinion.... Buy local

 

[THESIS THORON]

Surely but after 2-3 years of contract signing
They are not so complex so time will be less but 250 at contract signing is bit impractical for supply chain we have

private manufacturing, l&t delivered the k9 earlier than asked

 

[johnj]

Akash is different and Spyder is different .

The vertical launch Astra will be replacement for Spyder system. It will provide better accuracy and range.

There are different layers of protection based on range where Spyder aakash S 300/400/500 etc comes into picture.

Vl astra don't replace spyder till iaf consider phasing out barak mr/lr and it going to serve a long time.
akash developed to ia and iaf requirements , spyder for iaf requirements, hence both are different.
Iaf consider akash ng, akash s and vl astra which all share common elements.
radar guided guns, s 125, spyder[python 4/5/derby], akash, barak 8, s400 and vl akash, akash 1s, akash ng, xr sam, and only s125 gets out from service in future. now we need new ciws/ anti air guns with eo guidance.

I don't think akash gets removed from service in near future, but a new upgrade and spider is more advanced than akash.

 

[karn]

In case of fighter jets and artillery our forces have literally compromised their operational capabilities
Main point is there is no point to argue as nothing could be done right now even if our forces come to senses and looking at current attitude it's impossible
Anything if if if happens proactively even then this huge gap will remain for next 4-6 years
This makes us vulnerable and gives our enemy a good window to act

Lol. If you know anyone working for HAL or DPSUs ask them the situation with our desi products . Most of them will tell you the truth about how seemingly minor stuff will block induction issues that never make it into press releases . For example before Tejas FOC. The radar and ldp could not be synchronized .. a seemingly minor issue but blocks induction ..
We get it .. you want to execute all the jernails and an avatar of vishnu will incarnate and sort out our defence procurement .. move on.

 

[Tuco]

rumored production rate of atags -- 250guns per year

Once they are ordered they very well may do what l&t did, deliver before time. Hopefully urgency will be shown.

 

[India Super Power]

Lol. If you know anyone working for HAL or DPSUs ask them the situation with our desi products . Most of them will tell you the truth about how seemingly minor stuff will block induction issues that never make it into press releases . For example before Tejas FOC. The radar and ldp could not be synchronized .. a seemingly minor issue but blocks induction ..
We get it .. you want to execute all the jernails and an avatar of vishnu will incarnate and sort out our defence procurement .. move on.

Dil ki baat kardi apne toh

 

[India Super Power]

Once they are ordered they very well may do what l&t did, deliver before time. Hopefully urgency will be shown.

Problem is when are they going to order

 

[Flying Dagger]

Vl astra don't replace spyder till iaf consider phasing out barak mr/lr and it going to serve a long time.
akash developed to ia and iaf requirements , spyder for iaf requirements, hence both are different.
Iaf consider akash ng, akash s and vl astra which all share common elements.
radar guided guns, s 125, spyder[python 4/5/derby], akash, barak 8, s400 and vl akash, akash 1s, akash ng, xr sam, and only s125 gets out from service in future. now we need new ciws/ anti air guns with eo guidance.

I don't think akash gets removed from service in near future, but a new upgrade and spider is more advanced than akash.

Hold...

Spyder is vertical launch variant of python and Derby as you know.. an IIR and RF missile.

It's parallel in India is Astra missile system which will have vertical launch too later. An IIR version will also be developed.

So it is what will replace Spyder in Future.

Barak has longer range in contrast.

And Akash is different range advantage is it's cheaper to produce in comparison to Astra and can be used in bulk against varied targets.

Cost etc are important factors too.

 

[karn]

Hold...

Spyder is vertical launch variant of python and Derby as you know.. an IIR and RF missile.

It's parallel in India is Astra missile system which will have vertical launch too later. An IIR version will also be developed.

So it is what will replace Spyder in Future.

Barak has longer range in contrast.

And Akash is different range advantage is it's cheaper to produce in comparison to Astra and can be used in bulk against varied targets.

Cost etc are important factors too.

It will complement not replace spyder. It's the osa s that will get replaced.

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

Heard all atags trials will be completed by mid of April at most.

 

[tribendra bisoi]

Criticism of ATAGS -

weight -

“the extra weight” of the gun, may impact the operational performance of the gun system in mountainous and high-altitude terrain. The ATAGS is said to weigh around 18 tonnes. In comparison, ATHOS weighs less than 15 tonnes.”

However ATAGS has successfully completed trials in the highest altitude with harshest conditions. ATAGS created a new record as it fired at 13,000+ feet height, thus proving endurance and reliability. The Gun successfully completed 500+ km in treacherous high-altitude terrain up to 15,400 feet and proving ease of mobility. ATAGS can fire up to a range of 47km compared to range of 42km of ATHOS .

cost of gun -

ATHOS will cost less than Rs 11 crore per piece, while ATAGS is said to cost anywhere between Rs 16-18 crore. ATAGS are of prototype gun with GST while cost of Athos is of operation gun with pricing of 2018-19. The calculation do not include inflation and local manufacturing escalation.

Rate of fire -

ATAGS much better .. As compared to 3 round burst of ATHOS, ATAGS offers 5/6 round burst depending on prototype. a sustained rate of 60 rounds in sixty minutes . while ATHOS can fire 42 rounds in sixty minutes.

hydraulic vs electric -

Hydraulic drives as compared to electric drives are more voluminous, have greater weight and are more prone to effects and wear of climatic conditions. They require more maintenance and are more defect prone. electric drives are usually not as maintenance intensive as hydraulic drives. vibrations causes the hydraulic drive to frequently leak oil and remain unavailable for action. . Hydraulic systems also require many component parts, including a fluid reservoir, release valves, or even additional motors, which makes it logistically intensive. Modern tanks and arty gun designers are switching over to electric drives in their systems. Electrical motors offer the most precise and easily controllable positioning. These setups are easily scalable for any weight and torque requirement. They are quiet, smooth, and simple to repeat.

 

[THESIS THORON]

Heard all atags trials will be completed by mid of April at most.

yes, still there is weight problem , i dont think that it will get orders this time also .

imo they should order bharat 52 in meantime

 

[vishnugupt]

IA operates Heron with 48 to 52 hour endurance. Do you understand the meaning of having that much endurance? It gives you unmatched capability to cover an large swathe of area.
Now ofcourse you could go on and say that lets deploy 3 drones to compensate against 1 heron. But what about the operational cost? With 3 drones, your operational costs increase by 2 fold. Who is going to take care of that? You?

IA asked for 28 hr endurance which is around half of what they are getting now and 30k ft altitude which is again less then what they are getting now. But they too understood the challenge in getting those with indigenous tech and so diluted it further to 18 hrs and 28000 ft.

Your logic is as wierd as UN Generals.

Imagine you have 1 Heron with 48hr endurance and I have 3 Rustom with 18 hr endurance...

Scenario 1:-
Suppose I shot down your 1 Heron then you have to run Israel for begging. Otherwise I will dominate your sky ..

Suppose you shot my 2 rustom then I still have 1 which continue to deploy and ask HAL to manufacture 3 more .

Scenario 2:-

Imagine there are 5 war theatres with intense fighting going on....

You will dominate in 1 theatre while I will dominate on 3.. I will have more flexibility in deployment than you at any given point of time.

You Quality obsession might be helpful in small skirmish but disastrous in war scenario for sure....

 

[Flying Dagger]

It will complement not replace spyder. It's the osa s that will get replaced.

Well Spyder system has missiles which has a shelf life as all missiles do so once it is over we will use our own missiles and develop system around it.

May be we will buy new missiles to replace them till our system matures but Astra series will essentially replace Spyder.

 

[Covfefe]

Criticism of ATAGS -

weight -

“the extra weight” of the gun, may impact the operational performance of the gun system in mountainous and high-altitude terrain. The ATAGS is said to weigh around 18 tonnes. In comparison, ATHOS weighs less than 15 tonnes.”

However ATAGS has successfully completed trials in the highest altitude with harshest conditions. ATAGS created a new record as it fired at 13,000+ feet height, thus proving endurance and reliability. The Gun successfully completed 500+ km in treacherous high-altitude terrain up to 15,400 feet and proving ease of mobility. ATAGS can fire up to a range of 47km compared to range of 42km of ATHOS .

cost of gun -

ATHOS will cost less than Rs 11 crore per piece, while ATAGS is said to cost anywhere between Rs 16-18 crore. ATAGS are of prototype gun with GST while cost of Athos is of operation gun with pricing of 2018-19. The calculation do not include inflation and local manufacturing escalation.

Rate of fire -

ATAGS much better .. As compared to 3 round burst of ATHOS, ATAGS offers 5/6 round burst depending on prototype. a sustained rate of 60 rounds in sixty minutes . while ATHOS can fire 42 rounds in sixty minutes.

hydraulic vs electric -

Hydraulic drives as compared to electric drives are more voluminous, have greater weight and are more prone to effects and wear of climatic conditions. They require more maintenance and are more defect prone. electric drives are usually not as maintenance intensive as hydraulic drives. vibrations causes the hydraulic drive to frequently leak oil and remain unavailable for action. . Hydraulic systems also require many component parts, including a fluid reservoir, release valves, or even additional motors, which makes it logistically intensive. Modern tanks and arty gun designers are switching over to electric drives in their systems. Electrical motors offer the most precise and easily controllable positioning. These setups are easily scalable for any weight and torque requirement. They are quiet, smooth, and simple to repeat.

Atags cost number is bs... It was prototype development cost and not the production cost. If the production orders are decently big, there's no reason as to why it will cost more than Athos when the alloys are be developed locally (compared to imports by Israel) and no electromechanical system for autoloader like the one in Athos(which again adds cost)