DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[Chinmoy]

You mean to say we need a UAV which range must be equal to our total border length. You mean to say it is not acceptable if same task done by more than one UAV.

In another words UAV like Bayraktar is not surving it's purpose because it is not equivalent to MQ-9. Or perhaps UAVs are meant to something yet to be disclosed by armed forces around the World.

I can vividly remember where you had claimed Rustom 1/2 endurance just 2 hr and 8 hrs respectively

Could you please care to explain a UAVs utility in terms of Endurance?

IA operates Heron with 48 to 52 hour endurance. Do you understand the meaning of having that much endurance? It gives you unmatched capability to cover an large swathe of area.
Now ofcourse you could go on and say that lets deploy 3 drones to compensate against 1 heron. But what about the operational cost? With 3 drones, your operational costs increase by 2 fold. Who is going to take care of that? You?

IA asked for 28 hr endurance which is around half of what they are getting now and 30k ft altitude which is again less then what they are getting now. But they too understood the challenge in getting those with indigenous tech and so diluted it further to 18 hrs and 28000 ft.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Few pages back I mentioned about people here who would crib a lot when asked to go for BABA instead of Jockey, but would write essay on indigenization here. You seems to be of that category.

Lets take a relevant example to simplify things. Suppose you are a race car driver and want to compete in some circuit. So you want a car which would do 0 to 100 in 6 seconds to atleast compete, but the car offered by some indigenous company does it in 12 second. So as the driver, would you go with that car or would look for better option available?

Coming to ATAGS, 90% of the issues is with developers and the rest 10% is on user. What is the point of involving two biggest makers in the country and not taking advantage of their building capabilities? Why not they have gone with two different prototypes from the beginning? One with hydraulic drive and other with electric drive? How come now the issue of misfiring during last trial cropped up whereas both TSL and BFL were publishing reports of successful trial completion last year?
DRDO is trying to forcibly push their product. Same is the case with WhAP. Fault of IA/IAF lies that they don't have a design bureau of own just like IN. But in recent case of P75I we have seen that they are also not going with indigenous AIP.

So now you are free to laugh at me or on your ignorance.

Race car example was countered by someone, Ill explain it myself.

That 6 second foreign car is only good if you can use the car in a race. If in future, car spares become unavailable and you start having to take part in very few races, is it good? What if spares drop so much that you cant participate at all? In that case, 12 second car is better since you can make as many spares as you want.

In a war, supply chains break down. If you compare showpiece value, sure, imports are great. But if you intend to operate them in a hostile environment, then the bare minimum bar is to have spares production line in your own country. Best is to have it entirely in your country.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

IA operates Heron with 48 to 52 hour endurance. Do you understand the meaning of having that much endurance? It gives you unmatched capability to cover an large swathe of area.
Now ofcourse you could go on and say that lets deploy 3 drones to compensate against 1 heron. But what about the operational cost? With 3 drones, your operational costs increase by 2 fold. Who is going to take care of that? You?

IA asked for 28 hr endurance which is around half of what they are getting now and 30k ft altitude which is again less then what they are getting now. But they too understood the challenge in getting those with indigenous tech and so diluted it further to 18 hrs and 28000 ft.

Heron is massive, different class entirely. 2x the wingspan, longer, thicker body means 1.5-2x fuel stored. It also means it needs proper airfields, not 2-3 lane highways.

That 52 hour figure is also without payload, or with very little payload. Practical endurance is much lower.

 

[Chinmoy]

Why to show stupidity in SM

 

[Chinmoy]

Whole world is going for electric drives but for us. Even if they encountered a problem with electric drive it says alot about their competence that it took them 5-6 years to find problems with the drive . Arjun trials have been discussed endlessly but take a look at tin cans performance in Ukraine war . The same armed forces retired generals sang Hosannas about this garbage how it is superior to Arjun the real results are there to be seen.

Could you point out a howitzer gun with whole electric drive system?
ATHOS uses a hydraulic one as well as M777.

Electric drive is future, no doubt about it. But we require 1500 odd ATAGS. You could give whole electric drive system as an upgrade after induction. But you can't expect user to accept all 1500 guns with electric drive in first shot itself.

ATAGS started its user trials in late 2017. In 2020 DRDO mentioned that user has asked to change the whole electric drive to hydraulic drive. Do you seriously believe IA woke up one morning and decided that they want hydraulic drive? It came into fore only after the designers and users reached on a consensus and it is not met in a single meet. Unless and until you use a system extensively, how could you come up with its pros and cons? So IA asking for it after 1 or 2 year is fair enough.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Could you point out a howitzer gun with whole electric drive system?
ATHOS uses a hydraulic one as well as M777.

Electric drive is future, no doubt about it. But we require 1500 odd ATAGS. You could give whole electric drive system as an upgrade after induction. But you can't expect user to accept all 1500 guns with electric drive in first shot itself.

ATAGS started its user trials in late 2017. In 2020 DRDO mentioned that user has asked to change the whole electric drive to hydraulic drive. Do you seriously believe IA woke up one morning and decided that they want hydraulic drive? It came into fore only after the designers and users reached on a consensus and it is not met in a single meet. Unless and until you use a system extensively, how could you come up with its pros and cons? So IA asking for it after 1 or 2 year is fair enough.

Stop defending the indefensible,
when the ATAGS program was launched, IA could straight up have said they want a towed artillery system with hydraulic drives since we want don't want logisitcs issues.
No point in testing the gun till eternity and then at the last moment asking for a change and then again puttin the entire system through trials again so that you can have an excuse for emergency import of ATHOS 2052.

 

[johnj]

Yes.

Here too the very famous turf war of IA and IAF happened. But now with theaterization, it has come up as a shared system. You would see SPYDER only in western and northern theatre as of now.

I missed those news. Spyder is not a mobile system. barak 8 and spyder share common systems, means army now ask for s400 too. IA already having akash, similar range compared to spyder, ramjet, mobile and meets IA requirements. I think both IA and IAF fighting for foreign maal, and ditching drdo/desi ones. How may foreign sr sam sam IA want, considering all[including your comments], israel sam, south korean sam, akash, qrsam, akash ng.

 

[Chinmoy]

I think you have borrowed your knowledge in defence from UN Generals.

First, Comparing Race car with War machine is foolish. Car doesn't get bombed in circuit during race while weapons does. In war, supply of machine and parts play very important role that too at fast pace.. Imagine Russia would able fight in Ukraine if it was UN armed forces??? Never.

Second, Asking DRDO that they should have come up with 2 different type of ATAGs prototype is indeed a demonstration of UN generals wisdom. Typical changing Goal post habit, Changing requirements as usual whereas this is UN Generals job to give proper requirement including what subsystems they need.

Own Design bureau ??
A organisation with Zero wisdom, Zero Vision and can't tell their own needs properly will deliver you design of complex machine.

Sir ji Chandigarh Lobby join kar lijiye.... Reasoning mast hai apki

Now your level of ignorance is top notch. At the very first you are trying to run away from logic when you have mixed up the analogy of racing car with a war machine. I believe you have done it on purpose because you understood why I brought up the point. But anyhow you have to make your idiocy valid, so ...........

Now coming to second para, I believe you need to come into practical world first to understand how things work. When you are involving two production partners for prototype building, asking them to build the same prototype is simple wastage of resource. Join any MBA course and you would get to know more about project management.

Cursing IA/IAF for not having its own design bureau is something which I often do. But saying that they don't have one is again showing your ignorance in the matter. You can't come out with PSQR/GSQR unless and until you have a team who sits upon the design. But these QRs should come before project realization phase which sadly never happens and I do blame users on that.
But when you say that why IA requires something with so much capability as it is not a global power, then I must say friend, YOU HAVE LOST ALL YOUR MARBLES THERE.

 

[Srinie]

Could you point out a howitzer gun with whole electric drive system?
ATHOS uses a hydraulic one as well as M777.

Electric drive is future, no doubt about it. But we require 1500 odd ATAGS. You could give whole electric drive system as an upgrade after induction. But you can't expect user to accept all 1500 guns with electric drive in first shot itself.

ATAGS started its user trials in late 2017. In 2020 DRDO mentioned that user has asked to change the whole electric drive to hydraulic drive. Do you seriously believe IA woke up one morning and decided that they want hydraulic drive? It came into fore only after the designers and users reached on a consensus and it is not met in a single meet. Unless and until you use a system extensively, how could you come up with its pros and cons? So IA asking for it after 1 or 2 year is fair enough.

You replace electric drive with hydraulic one overall weight will increase by 2-3 tons . Can bet the last Paisa the army will find it overweight and reject it . The 1500 ATAGs will be delivered by 2030's that is the future .
M777 has electric drives M777

 

[Chinmoy]

Race car example was countered by someone, Ill explain it myself.

That 6 second foreign car is only good if you can use the car in a race. If in future, car spares become unavailable and you start having to take part in very few races, is it good? What if spares drop so much that you cant participate at all? In that case, 12 second car is better since you can make as many spares as you want.

In a war, supply chains break down. If you compare showpiece value, sure, imports are great. But if you intend to operate them in a hostile environment, then the bare minimum bar is to have spares production line in your own country. Best is to have it entirely in your country.

Exactly. I am not rooting for foreign equipments myself. My only problem is with people who come up with stupid logic of why IA require equipment with so much capability. Being a user, if I ask from the developers to atleast come up with a equipment which is providing me atleast 50% of what I am using right now, then I am not wrong anywhere. I've every right to not accept anything which is not even giving me 50% capability then the existing one.

Being a user its not my job to look into the balance sheet of company by accepting a below par equipment. If my developer is not able to give me atleast a 50% better equipment, then I am not wrong in asking them to develop it first.

Hope you got my point.

 

[Chinmoy]

Heron is massive, different class entirely. 2x the wingspan, longer, thicker body means 1.5-2x fuel stored. It also means it needs proper airfields, not 2-3 lane highways.

That 52 hour figure is also without payload, or with very little payload. Practical endurance is much lower.

Practical endurance of Heron for surveillance as used by IA is 48 hours.

IA asked for 28 hours from Rustom. Now cut down to 18 hours.

 

[Covfefe]

Practical endurance of Heron for surveillance as used by IA is 48 hours.

IA asked for 28 hours from Rustom. Now cut down to 18 hours.

What's the capital cost of Heron and Rustom?

 

[tribendra bisoi]

You replace electric drive with hydraulic one overall weight will increase by 2-3 tons . Can bet the last Paisa the army will find it overweight and reject it . The 1500 ATAGs will be delivered by 2030's that is the future .
M777 has electric drives M777

View attachment 145941

We need a honest technocrat defence minister along with civilian fresh young technocrats as his assistant .. who studied from IITs / IISc .. who knows their stuffs and cnt be made fool .

 

[Chinmoy]

Stop defending the indefensible,
when the ATAGS program was launched, IA could straight up have said they want a towed artillery system with hydraulic drives since we want don't want logisitcs issues.
No point in testing the gun till eternity and then at the last moment asking for a change and then again puttin the entire system through trials again so that you can have an excuse for emergency import of ATHOS 2052.

ATHOS was tested for 7 years, ATAGS was tested for 3 years before the barrel burst.

Now coming to IA should have asked for hydraulic and this and that, I agree on that. They have taken a decade to create the PSQR. DRDO came out with ATAGS prior to the PSQR. That's why I said that 10% of fault lies with user where they could not even come out with the basic requirement.

But as a designer its my job to provide users with options. Now for ages IA is using hydraulic drives in all its howitzer. So how on earth do you think that they would accept a all electric drive system from the word go?
When you order a system its not just the component you have to pay for, but biggest chunk of costs does goes into training. Now a force which is well averse with hydraulic system with prefer it over any other. DRDO could have gone with a hybrid system.

I agree that IA has been at fault, but that doesn't mean DRDO has done it all correct.

 

[Covfefe]

We need a honest technocrat defence minister along with civilian fresh young technocrats as his assistant .. who studied from IITs / IISc .. who knows their stuffs and cnt be made fool .

Technical points are countered by DRDO/HAL- DRDO usually blocks these purchases in MoD. But yeah, without the Minister and Force's buy in there's only so much they can do. Blocking import doesn't ensure desi procurement automatically - it just translates to delay in procurement and loss of capability
Also, a bloody civvie forcing in his inputs is unacceptable. He isn't supposed to know what 2 tonnes mean

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Exactly. I am not rooting for foreign equipments myself. My only problem is with people who come up with stupid logic of why IA require equipment with so much capability. Being a user, if I ask from the developers to atleast come up with a equipment which is providing me atleast 50% of what I am using right now, then I am not wrong anywhere. I've every right to not accept anything which is not even giving me 50% capability then the existing one.

Being a user its not my job to look into the balance sheet of company by accepting a below par equipment. If my developer is not able to give me atleast a 50% better equipment, then I am not wrong in asking them to develop it first.

Hope you got my point.

Yeah, I agree. If a system can do 70-80% of comparable foreign systems, it should be bought. Else not good.

 

[tribendra bisoi]

Technical points are countered by DRDO/HAL- DRDO usually blocks these purchases in MoD. But yeah, without the Minister and Force's buy in there's only so much they can do. Blocking import doesn't ensure desi procurement automatically - it just translates to delay in procurement and loss of capability
Also, a bloody civvie forcing in his inputs is unacceptable. He isn't supposed to know what 2 tonnes mean

Lesson from manohar Parikar ... thats why said it . Anyone following defence news for some times is aware of lobbies and corruption that goes in to it .

 

[Chinmoy]

I missed those news. Spyder is not a mobile system. barak 8 and spyder share common systems, means army now ask for s400 too. IA already having akash, similar range compared to spyder, ramjet, mobile and meets IA requirements. I think both IA and IAF fighting for foreign maal, and ditching drdo/desi ones. How may foreign sr sam sam IA want, considering all[including your comments], israel sam, south korean sam, akash, qrsam, akash ng.

IA would induct QRSAM and VLSRSAM in numbers for sure. By SoKo system I believe you are talking about Biho. Now it is a point defence weapon unlike QRSAM. So no point is bringing in. But now it seems Biho would not come.

SPYDER-SR is a very much mobile system designed to engage targets on go just like QRSAM.

 

[Flying Dagger]

I missed those news. Spyder is not a mobile system. barak 8 and spyder share common systems, means army now ask for s400 too. IA already having akash, similar range compared to spyder, ramjet, mobile and meets IA requirements. I think both IA and IAF fighting for foreign maal, and ditching drdo/desi ones. How may foreign sr sam sam IA want, considering all[including your comments], israel sam, south korean sam, akash, qrsam, akash ng.

Akash is different and Spyder is different .

The vertical launch Astra will be replacement for Spyder system. It will provide better accuracy and range.

There are different layers of protection based on range where Spyder aakash S 300/400/500 etc comes into picture.

 

[Chinmoy]

You replace electric drive with hydraulic one overall weight will increase by 2-3 tons . Can bet the last Paisa the army will find it overweight and reject it . The 1500 ATAGs will be delivered by 2030's that is the future .
M777 has electric drives M777

View attachment 145941

Changing to hydraulic from all electric drive would bring down overall weight by nearly 1 ton.


This is M777 firing. Look at hydraulic drive rather then electric one.