Civil war in Ukraine

[Akim]

KIEV, Ukraine: Ukraine's key election fails to spark enthusiasm | World | NewsObserver.com

Yes. Elections on 26 October were sluggish.

 

[Ray]

And Stalin was worse than Hitler, history will tell which category Putin will fit. How would you react if Pakistan supported separatism in India, then annex part of the land?

Actually the German liked Hitler.

He revived Germany inspite of the most humiliating provisions and financial burden imposed by the Treaty of Versailles.

The main terms were:

1. War guilt

Germany had to accept the guilt for starting the war.
2. Germany's armed forces

The German army was limited to 100,000 men.
Conscription (forced army service) was banned; soldiers had to be volunteers.
Germany was not allowed armoured vehicles, submarines or aircraft.
The navy could build only six battleships.
The Rhineland became a demilitarised zone. This meant that no German troops were allowed into that area.
3. Reparations

Germany had to pay for the damage caused by the war. The exact figure was not agreed until 1921 when it was set at £6,600 million, an enormous amount.
4. German territories and colonies

Alsace-Lorraine went to France
Eupen, Moresnet and Malmedy went to Belgium
North Schleswig went to Denmark (after a vote by the population)
West Prussia and Posen went to Poland
Danzig became a free city controlled by the League of Nations (giving Poland a seaport)
Memel went to Lithuania
Saar was controlled by the League of Nations (with a vote by the population to be held on the matter after 15 years)
German colonies became mandates under the control of the League of Nations (in practice this usually meant Britain and France)
Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania became independent states (Germany had taken these states from Russia in 1918)
5. League of Nations

The League of Nations was set up as an international 'police force'. The League was based on a Covenant (or agreement). The Covenant and the constitution of the League of Nations were part of the terms of the Treaty. Germany was not invited to join the League until it had shown that it could be a peace-loving country.

And Germans are a proud race.

Between the period of WWI and WWI, he industrialised Germany and made it a military power to reckon with. No other country so badly routed and ruined by war could rise like a phoenix as did Germany under Hitler.

Even West Germany with immense funding by the US and its security concerns guaranteed by the US and NATO and so did not have to spend money on its defence (which is a great drain on the economy for any nation) could not match the rise of Germany under Hitler. And Hitler's Germany and Post WWII Germany are of the same German race.

Yes, Hitler did the Genocide which can never be forgiven. That has smeared the German history.

But then, if one look beyond the propaganda (for the want of a more appropriate word) that has vilified Germany, the period under Hitler was something remarkable.

It is interesting to note that Nazis who were required to assist the WWII victors were quietly rehabilitated and given respectability and their histories suitably doctored to make them appear good. Even German Generals who went against Hitler were praised as great Generals while conveniently relegating others to the second slot. Therefore. one cannot help but experience the 'manufacturing' of history to suit the fancies of the victors.

I am not fan of Hitler, but I like to look beyond the cobwebs of propaganda, disinformation, PR and try to see the bare bones of an event.

I am looking at the issue as a bystander and with pragmatic view.

 

[jouni]

Actually the German liked Hitler.

He revived Germany inspite of the most humiliating provisions and financial burden imposed by the Treaty of Versailles.



And Germans are a proud race.

Between the period of WWI and WWI, he industrialised Germany and made it a military power to reckon with. No other country so badly routed and ruined by war could rise like a phoenix as did Germany under Hitler.

Even West Germany with immense funding by the US and its security concerns guaranteed by the US and NATO and so did not have to spend money on its defence (which is a great drain on the economy for any nation) could not match the rise of Germany under Hitler. And Hitler's Germany and Post WWII Germany are of the same German race.

Yes, Hitler did the Genocide which can never be forgiven. That has smeared the German history.

But then, if one look beyond the propaganda (for the want of a more appropriate word) that has vilified Germany, the period under Hitler was something remarkable.

I am not fan of Hitler, but I like to look beyond the cobwebs of propaganda, disinformation, PR and try to see the bare bones of an event.

I am looking at the issue as a bystander and with pragmatic view.

You are spot on. Putin has a lot of same qualities with Hitler, just replace Versailles with fall of SU and jews with the US. They use the same rhetoric and have similar popularity. Of course Russian people are not German people ( look at the economy, only raw materisls and energy based, no innovations).

 

[Ray]

You are spot on. Putin has a lot of same qualities with Hitler, just replace Versailles with fall of SU and jews with the US. They use the same rhetoric and have similar popularity. Of course Russian people are not German people ( look at the economy, only raw materisls and energy based, no innovations).

It is but natural that when a nation is down and out, the morale hits the bottom.

It requires a strong and even autocratic a leader to boost the morale and set the Nation once again on the rails of stability and progress.

Look at how unpopular Obama has become. He is not a strong and resolute leader.

Yet, Bush, who was no better than Putin or even Hitler (autocratic) did instil some purpose in the Americans even though he was wrecking up the world.

However, since I have seen both the Germans and Russians, the Russians are no patch on Germans. The Germans are much superior in all departments.

 

[jouni]

It is but natural that when a nation is down and out, the morale hits the bottom.

It requires a strong and even autocratic a leader to boost the morale and set the Nation once again on the rails of stability and progress.

Look at how unpopular Obama has become. He is not a strong and resolute leader.

Yet, Bush, who was no better than Putin or even Hitler (autocratic) did instil some purpose in the Americans even though he was wrecking up the world.

However, since I have seen both the Germans and Russians, the Russians are not patch on Germans. The Germans are much superior in all departments.

You are too harsh, I would say that Russian humor is better than German humor. Also Russian women are more beautiful, but that's about it.

 

[Ray]

You are too harsh, I would say that Russian humor is better than German humor. Also Russian women are more beautiful, but that's about it.

There is a Lufthansa ad doing the rounds on our TV.

It is about a grandchild going with the grandfather to the US to meet the boy's father flying Lufthansa.

The grandfather states the the German have no humour, they are always serious, and their food................ ugh!

Of course, the Lufthansa ad shows that everything Indian is on the flight causing the child to get alarmed that they are on the wrong flight.

The grandfather assure the child that no, they are on the correct flight.

*********************

There is one thing common with Germans and Russians - they are always shabbily dressed and their buildings are stark and ungainly, except some, even if they are practical.

And they (both the Russians and Germans) drink too much in a most rustic style.

 

[asianobserve]

Tank column crosses from Russia into Ukraine: Kiev military | Reuters

(Reuters) - A column of 32 tanks, 16 howitzer artillery systems and trucks carrying ammunition and fighters has crossed into eastern Ukraine from Russia, the Kiev military said on Friday.

 

[arpakola]

Tank column crosses from Russia into Ukraine: Kiev military | Reuters

well yes
it is obvious that after the elections Russia will support the new goverment of Donbass
Russian news: Putin's Valdai Speech Was More Sensible and Credible than Anything Coming from the West - Russia Insider

 

[pmaitra]

Moscow to Kiev: Stick to Minsk ceasefire, stop making false 'invasion' claims

A man looks on next to his neighbor's house, which was destroyed by shelling in the village of Spartak, on the outskirts of Donetsk, eastern Ukraine (Reuters / Shamil Zhumatov)

A remarkably different tone in this article from BBC: Ukraine crisis: Tanks 'cross border' from Russia

They have a picture of Poroshenko making a gesture, as if he is performing a magic show, but not a single picture of the destruction due to shelling, or the children killed in Donetsk.

 

[arpakola]

The Western Spinners are Losing and They Know It
Russian news: The Western Spinners are Losing and They Know It - Russia Insider

What's killing the Washington-Brussels-NATO Party Line on Ukraine is not Sinister Putin mind-control but its inherent falsity. Consider some of the things they expect their audience to believe, at one and the same time.

That the best way to prevent oligarchs from looting your country is to make one of them president and appoint others as provincial governors.

That the only way to transcend Ukraine's political failures is to appoint a bunch of people who have been in and out of governments for years.

That an election that excludes the parties that got 40%+ the last time around is perfectly democratic.

That the shoot-down of MH17 is an enormously important story until it suddenly isn't.

That the rebels would shoot down an aircraft flying at 10000 metres heading towards Russia in a straight line.

That the Putin who is so determined to re-establish the Empire forgot to grab Georgia in 2008.

That people haven't noticed that it's NATO that's getting closer to Russia and not the other way around.

That NATO gets its intelligence from tweets, twitters and blurry commercial satellite images.

That postponing implementation of the Ukraine-EU agreement is unacceptable right up to the moment that it is postponed.

That the fact that Ukraine owes Russia billions for gas it has consumed is evidence of Russian pressure on Ukraine.

That Russia is always invading but never actually invades.

That all those swastikas and neo-nazi references are just a figment of Putin's imagination.

That artillery shells keep falling on civilians in eastern Ukraine but nobody knows where they come from.

That self-determination is perfectly acceptable in Kosovo but absolutely unacceptable in Ukraine.

That Nuland and Pyatt didn't actually plan out the new government.

That conferences like the Legatum one are ever going to tell you anything that you can't already guess.

 

[asianobserve]

Things are where I want them to be right now. Russia's left foot is firmly inside Eastern Ukraine and the West have no choice but to punish her (I have always said that the best thing that happened to Europe is Putin's invasion of Ukraine as it puts these naive Europeans back to their wits). With the sure and steady prodding of the Americans the West seems to be digging in for a long term square-off against Russia. The consequence? 1) NATO's relevance is back and it is being strengthened; and, 2) Russia is slowly being squeezed and hopefully put back were it belongs, inside Russia and not bothering its smaller neighbors.

 

[jouni]

Things are where I want them to be right now. Russia's left foot is firmly inside Eastern Ukraine and the West have no choice but to punish her (I have always said that the best thing that happened to Europe is Putin's invasion of Ukraine as it puts these naive Europeans back to their wits). With the sure and steady prodding of the Americans the West seems to be digging in for a long term square-off against Russia. The consequence? 1) NATO's relevance is back and it is being strengthened; and, 2) Russia is slowly being squeezed and hopefully put back were it belongs, inside Russia and not bothering its smaller neighbors.

Yes, when new all republican congress come to power, all cards will be laid on the table and Putin's bluff called. We do not need Winter war 2, this time big boys will come to the aid of the small and aggressor halted.

 

[asianobserve]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/07/b...t-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

In Ukraine Crisis, U.S. Businesses Face Tit-for-Tat Response to Sanctions

It seems that Putin is bent on shooting his other foot! Look he is trying to do tit-for-tat. But his tit-for-tat ad hoc sanctions against Western businesses inside Russia will hurt Russia more than the West. A lot of these Western businesses in Russia are big multinationals that have operations all over the World. In the short term these companies might feel the pinch from the interference or even stoppage of their operations within Russia but in the end they will survive and thrive. It is ordinary Russians on the other hand who will suffer as they will be deprived of the consumer products that are being sold by these companies in Russia. One of the greatest hit will be on the employment sector since a lot of these Western companies are employing a lot of Russian workers who are poised to lose their employment should these businesses are forced to close in Russia. Another consequence would be a further reduction in government revenues from the closure of these Western businesses. But perhaps with the marginalization and closure of the biggest western businesses in Russia Kremlin will lose one of its most important leverage against the West (the Western business lobby who have been preventing the West from going all-out against Russia).

 

[asianobserve]

Yes, when new all republican congress come to power, all cards will be laid on the table and Putin's bluff called. We do not need Winter war 2, this time big boys will come to the aid of the small and aggressor halted.

These American Republicans are gang ho cowboys. I hope they don't blow off the strategy against Russia. They should continue with the sanctions route while strengthening NATO. They should not be hot heads and start sending SAMs, tanks, jet fighters to Kiev right away to fall right into Putin's plot. They should just let Putin shoot his feet and hands, and then his head.

 

[jouni]

These American Republicans are gang ho cowboys. I hope they don't blow off the strategy against Russia. They should continue with the sanctions route while strengthening NATO. They should not be hot heads and start sending SAMs, tanks, jet fighters to Kiev right away to fall right into Putin's plot. They should just let Putin shoot his feet and hands, and then his head.

I do not know. At least they should up the sanctions up immediately, now time is playing in Putin's favor. Biggest difference with this war compared to two Finnish war of independence (1918 & 1939 )is that Ukraine is not decisive or unified. Putin can use his divide and conquer method as he wants. Finns gave no ground, kill as many Russians as you can, so that they know that the price of taking the country will be high. When that is clear, then you can start to negotiate. No sign of that here. Also propaganda is much better now, the fog of war is very thick.

 

[asianobserve]

I do not know. At least they should up the sanctions up immediately, now time is playing in Putin's favor. Biggest difference with this war compared to two Finnish war of independence (1918 & 1939 )is that Ukraine is not decisive or unified. Putin can use his divide and conquer method as he wants. Finns gave no ground, kill as many Russians as you can, so that they know that the price of taking the country will be high. When that is clear, then you can start to negotiate. No sign of that here. Also propaganda is much better now, the fog of war is very thick.

For me the most important thing right now is to weaken Russia without firing a shot directly at it (secretly yes). Let Putin continue to stoke the rebellion and then the West will respond in kind by more sanctions. If Putin continue to maintain his pace of belligerence then I'm definitely sure that with the declining oil price will wreck havoc on the Russian economy.

 

[@yourService]

@Akim, can you provide data in a better format (like a table) with value of production?

Ukrainians must realize that IMF loans they are taking is ruining their country's future. These loans are going towards war expenses and not development. Ukraine needs development, not war.
If there are pro-Russia and pro-Europe people in Ukraine who cannot live together, then the best course is separation of these people into two areas.

Killing each other cannot be a solution.

Sir, in a nutshell, this is the best suggestion for Ukraine.

 

[@yourService]

Unanswered. We will investigate. Without stupid advice. Ukraine last summer could liberate their territory, but listened to the advice of the West. Pro-Russian configured - let goes to Russia. There is a large area. Siberia almost unsettled..

This is what banderists say, "Suitcase, station, Moscow." Nice to know that you are now on full gear.

 

[jouni]

Russia may again attack Ukraine this weekend - Gazeta Wyborcza| Ukrinform

 

[Razor]

Russia may again attack Ukraine this weekend - Gazeta Wyborcza| Ukrinform

Other than the most compelling evidence of ""Putin likes to start his [armed] campaigns on weekends", is/are there any evidence.
They have used this Rus will attack tomorrow, Rus submarine here, Russi plane belonging to Latvia invaded "Great" Britain so on, that it doesn't cause much excitement now.
Remember @jouni (as discussed in the other thread) you are a post-doc in propaganda, you got to post quality propaganda sources not desperate ukarinian sources.