Civil war in Ukraine

[jouni]

This whole crisis basically started because Russian economy is resources ( and corruption ) based. They could not integrate to international systems, and therefore started this turning inside and creating crisis in Ukraine.

I was yesterday in a seminar where it was said that one kilometer of railroad in Russia costs 6,5 MEUR, and in Finland 2,4 MEUR. Can you believe that in every kilometer built in Russia 4 MEUR goes to corruption. No wonder they need foreign wars and manipulation of the population.

 

[sgarg]

Look not to the country of origin, and at the Central office. Chinese cars produced in Ukraine (Geely (Kremenchug), Cherry (Illichivsk)), but the Central office is located in China. Cars Skoda released in Ivano-Frankivsk, but the Central office is located in Czech Republic.

So this is sustaining your EU ambitions, exporting cheap Chinese cars to EU. Funny!

 

[sgarg]

This whole crisis basically started because Russian economy is resources ( and corruption ) based. They could not integrate to international systems, and therefore started this turning inside and creating crisis in Ukraine.

I was yesterday in a seminar where it was said that one kilometer of railroad in Russia costs 6,5 MEUR, and in Finland 2,4 MEUR. Can you believe that in every kilometer built in Russia 4 MEUR goes to corruption. No wonder they need foreign wars and manipulation of the population.

Care to provide decent data on your quote??
Show me.
You provide very poor propaganda bereft of any decent data. A good propagandist provides data even if its is manufactured.

I do not doubt the existence of corruption in Russia. However you are making a mountain of an anthill. Corruption is everywhere. Some places its is less, some places it is more.

 

[pmaitra]

We should strive to make our point without having to use rough language.

Thank you.

 

[pmaitra]

This whole crisis basically started because Russian economy is resources ( and corruption ) based. They could not integrate to international systems, and therefore started this turning inside and creating crisis in Ukraine.

I was yesterday in a seminar where it was said that one kilometer of railroad in Russia costs 6,5 MEUR, and in Finland 2,4 MEUR. Can you believe that in every kilometer built in Russia 4 MEUR goes to corruption. No wonder they need foreign wars and manipulation of the population.

Who organized that seminar?

Were they comparing apples and oranges?

I have read a lot about building of the Baikal-Amur Magistral. Building railways cost differently in different places, depending upon population, skill of the population, geography, and closeness to industrial centres. If building railways in Russia costs more in average per km than Finland, it makes sense to me.

First verify the validity of the information presented in the seminar. Was it a typical western NGO sponsored brainwashing session? Just asking.

 

[jouni]

Who organized that seminar?

Were they comparing apples and oranges?

I have read a lot about building of the Baikal-Amur Magistral. Building railways cost differently in different places, depending upon population, skill of the population, geography, and closeness to industrial centres. If building railways in Russia costs more in average per km than Finland, it makes sense to me.

First verify the validity of the information presented in the seminar. Was it a typical western NGO sponsored brainwashing session? Just asking.

It was a seminar about building new railroad from Finnish Lapland to Russia. Figures were from October railways, Finnish figures from VR. Consultant was Pöyry ( poyry.com ). If they e-mail me the presentation, I can post it here.

Somebody from the audience asked, why don't they invite Finnish company to tender also the building of the Russian side of the railroad, they would get it cheaper? The consultant replied "Well, this is Russia"

 

[Akim]

What is the state of shipbuilding in Ukraine? Name one industry in which Ukraine has done well? You do not live in Germany?

Both Russia and Ukraine have come out of USSR. Out of this, Ukraine has been a very poor performer.

Ukrainians are spoilt kids who want pensions for everything. What industry is there in Lviv? Care to tell me? You will get rich just by licking EU's [edited].

The modern economy of Ukraine is not much different from the Russian economy. Only we do not export oil and natural gas, so less money.

 

[pmaitra]

It was a seminar about building new railroad from Finnish Lapland to Russia. Figures were from October railways, Finnish figures from VR. Consultant was Pöyry ( poyry.com ). If they e-mail me the presentation, I can post it here.

Somebody from the audience asked, why don't they invite Finnish company to tender also the building of the Russian side of the railroad, they would get it cheaper? The consultant replied "Well, this is Russia"

I went to poyry.com.

I got this: "This webpage is not available"

Anyway, I am not saying there is no corruption in Russia. It is everywhere, including the EU. Don't forget that the Germans tried to bribe us and their submarines got blacklisted.

Yes, I am interested in seeing that presentation.

 

[jouni]

I went to poyry.com.

I got this: "This webpage is not available"

Anyway, I am not saying there is no corruption in Russia. It is everywhere, including the EU. Don't forget that the Germans tried to bribe us and their submarines got blacklisted.

Yes, I am interested in seeing that presentation.

Pöyry | international consulting and engineering

 

[pmaitra]

Pöyry | international consulting and engineering

I can see it now.

It is a transport infrastructure company.

For cost estimation, I would look at:
Type of rails (weight per foot).
Signalling equipment.
Frogs (not the animal).
Stations.
Terra (rock, permafrost, etc.).
Bridges and tunnels.
Embankments.
Land acquisition costs.
Protected flora-fauna land and local laws.
Availability of skilled labour, and associated accommodation, townships, and relevant costs.
Availability of roads for transportation of goods.
Import duties or restrictions on equipment.

 

[Razor]

So @pmaitra :

1. Ukr, well EU to be more precise, has paid some $ 1.45B of ukr's $ 4.5B debt on previous gas it consumed from Russia.
2. It needs to pay another $ 1,65B of the debt, before years end.
3. The price for estimated gas to be used for November and December needs to be pre-paid by Ukr to Russia at a set price of $ 0.378/m3.
4. The $ 1.45B EU paid is from the loans that EU is giving to Ukr, @pmaitra am i not right ?
5. Also was not the price ($ 0.378/m3), about the same as that Russia offered some time back to Ukr, I think Jun/Jul. At that time ukr vehemently opposed that price, now I guess winter changed their mind.

 

[pmaitra]

@Razor,

Ukraine got loan from IMF as well, after Arsenic "Nuland's Boy" Yatz stole all of Ukraine gold and flew them out to New York. So, Ukraine paying Russia for the gas comes out of the total loans it has. It doesn't matter whether that money comes out of IMF loan or EU loan. Also, I do not have the details of the EU loan and on what conditions it was given to Ukraine.

BTW, Arsenic Yatz did the same thing as that Libyan Musa Kusa did. The western regimes love these corrupt thieves from other countries, as long as they bring in the stolen booty.

 

[sgarg]

@Akim, can you compare your industries output to Russia industries output?

Ukraine had many natural resources. It is not fair to complain about natural resources.

Ukraine industrial output has been declining steadily from the time of dissolution of USSR. A "democratic" Ukraine did not reverse this trend.

When India got its freedom, India was dirt poor. India built its industries and increased farm output basically starting from scratch.

You are absolutely wrong about Ukraine at par with Russia. It is not. The figures tell the story correctly.

 

[pmaitra]

Well said @sgarg. I wish to add a bit to what you said.

When India became independent, there was bloodshed and massive population movement. Ukraine did not.

India has almost no industry. Ukraine inherited a lot of heavy engineering industries, almost all thanks to the Russians.

India, immediately upon independence, was plunged in a war. Ukraine was relatively peaceful until February 21, 2014.

@Akim, I don't see you and your country making any progress if you are going to continue to point fingers at Russia.

 

[sgarg]

It was a seminar about building new railroad from Finnish Lapland to Russia. Figures were from October railways, Finnish figures from VR. Consultant was Pöyry ( poyry.com ). If they e-mail me the presentation, I can post it here.

Somebody from the audience asked, why don't they invite Finnish company to tender also the building of the Russian side of the railroad, they would get it cheaper? The consultant replied "Well, this is Russia"

Please provide the PDF translated to English. We want to study it.

 

[asianobserve]

@sgarg, the US does produce consumer goods, but most of the consumer goods that I have at my home, are made in China.

@asianobserve, yes, calling loans and financial deals "products" is a relatively new terminology introduced by economists. I call it pen-pushing and paper-pushing. It is basically playing with numbers. If we look at China's ownership of US government bonds, then we know who actually controls what percentage of the financial market. It is a shame that the American Dollar comes out of a private bank (Federal Reserve). The national currency should be firmly in the control of the elected government. It isn't. Thankfully, India is not like that and RBI keeps the Indian economy isolated from the shocks of the global market.

Without loans the whole World economy will grind to a halt from the US, EU, China, India, Russia, etc. Every new gleaming multi-storey building, factory, airline company, even medium sized businesses you see anywhere is financed in a large part by loans. So it is not surprising that the countries with very vibrant financial services sector are also the countries with very vibrant over-all economy. The only trouble with loans, as most other enterprise, is greed - bankers/lenders would often forget about credit risk assessment so that they can earn interests and commissions from credit transactions. When the bad debt piles up and it becomes so big compared to the national economy then that's when the real danger comes in. The Chinese have a very high bad debts level (a lot are unrecorded/underground).

 

[pmaitra]

Without loans the whole World economy will grind to a halt from the US, EU, China, India, Russia, etc. Every new gleaming multi-storey building, factory, airline company, even medium sized businesses you see anywhere is financed in a large part by loans. So it is not surprising that the countries with very vibrant financial services sector are also the countries with very vibrant over-all economy. The only trouble with loans, as most other enterprise, is greed - bankers/lenders would often forget about credit risk assessment so that they can earn interests and commissions from credit transactions. When the bad debt piles up and it becomes so big compared to the national economy then that's when the real danger comes in. The Chinese have a very high bad debts level (a lot are unrecorded/underground).

I am interested in discussing this loan/debt issue, but not in this thread. Please present your views in the other thread I mentioned. I will respond later. Gotta go to bed now.

 

[Akim]

@Akim, can you compare your industries output to Russia industries output?

Ukraine had many natural resources. It is not fair to complain about natural resources.

Ukraine industrial output has been declining steadily from the time of dissolution of USSR. A "democratic" Ukraine did not reverse this trend.

When India got its freedom, India was dirt poor. India built its industries and increased farm output basically starting from scratch.

You are absolutely wrong about Ukraine at par with Russia. It is not. The figures tell the story correctly.

In Russia the same. Where the mine in the Russian part of the Donbass? Where metallurgical plants in the Urals? Where the design Bureau to develop a jet? What passenger aircraft developed by Russia?

 

[Akim]

@Akim, I don't see you and your country making any progress if you are going to continue to point fingers at Russia.

I also don't see progress over the last year.

Ukraine inherited a lot of heavy engineering industries, almost all thanks to the Russians.

Thanks To The Soviet Union. It makes a big difference.

 

[sgarg]

In Russia the same. Where the mine in the Russian part of the Donbass? Where metallurgical plants in the Urals? Where the design Bureau to develop a jet? What passenger aircraft developed by Russia?

Can you provide hard data to support your premise. The data for Ukraine is actually quite bad.