Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: Will Tejas MK2 be equivalant to Rafale?

I am hoping mods will change the posts to appropriate thread. However the paper is saying that Arjun MK 1 has a German engine.

cvrde has developed indigenous engine. I have read it in interview but can't find now. He said that arjun wasn't ordered more hence no indigenous engine. First 124 consists german engine.
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even m1a1 have many component like its armour.
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no one will say that even israel brought many technologies of arjun for newer version of merkava. Mate DRDO really works hard. Its army and air force which keeps chaining requirement. Like arjun was a 45 tonne tank and army told to make it 60 tonne category like m1a1 and now army saying its heavy.
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what will you say it?

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: Will Tejas MK2 be equivalant to Rafale?

Really India needs to start producing really indigenous tanks. Even the engine of Arjun Mk2 was changed from an Indian one to German one. All of this because the orders for Arjun was a small one. I think the DRDO officials are working like the usual govt employees who are stereotyped for their lazy attitude. The govt should immediately start scrutinizing why DRDO`s is being so lax in its approach. If India does not have its own built tanks the we would have to go back to placing expensive orders from Russia,Israel,UK. This countries might even blackmail us during war.

you have no right to call DRDO lazy. Let me give you an example. Astra is developed in 10 years by DRDO. and DRDO changed its design thrice. Will any lazy do that? And india have its now tank yet army induction russian tanks

 

[Ray]

Re: Will Tejas MK2 be equivalant to Rafale?

first point is engine. 10% of its price is price of engine. And renaming 40% includes many technologies which cannot be produced in third world countries in QUALITY.
..gine but no more orders by IA. So later on arjun mk2 can also be 80-90% indigenous

Less said about the CVRDE, the better

 

[Ray]

Re: Will Tejas MK2 be equivalant to Rafale?

you have no right to call DRDO lazy. Let me give you an example. Astra is developed in 10 years by DRDO. and DRDO changed its design thrice. Will any lazy do that?

They are hamhanded and constrained by bureaucratic red tape.

Do you deny this?

Any experience with the DRDO?

Any ground based missile on the table or successful?

 

[Peter]

Re: Will Tejas MK2 be equivalant to Rafale?

you have no right to call DRDO lazy. Let me give you an example. Astra is developed in 10 years by DRDO. and DRDO changed its design thrice. Will any lazy do that? And india have its now tank yet army induction russian tanks

I did not call DRDO lazy. I said that govt employees are stereotyped as lazy people in India. Read my post again.

Also I want India to have 100% indigenous tanks.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: Will Tejas MK2 be equivalant to Rafale?

I did not call DRDO lazy. I said that govt employees are stereotyped as lazy people in India. Read my post again.

Also I want India to have 100% indigenous tanks.

even m1a1 is not 100% indigenous.
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every one will blame arjun and tejas project but none will tell you that even israel was impressed by fire power, accuracy, armour etc. Technologies of arjun and they took it on their own tank merkava.
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tejas too, its mission computer exported to russia. ADA licenced its composite structure to airbus. And much more.
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though 90% indigenous is really impressive for third word country

 

[Ray]

Re: Will Tejas MK2 be equivalant to Rafale?

Let us not quote Shukla.

He is as fickle as the wind.

Once he is for T 90 and then for Arjun.

Must be good reasons for such fickleness.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Will Tejas MK2 be equivalant to Rafale?

100% indigenization is not really cost effective.
Secondly everything v make cannot be world class...
We need to change a bit to the defination of indigenization . We must be capable of making best products and they must be preferred over any imported part or good.... but there is a huge possibility when one part production will be lesser than consumption then we must keep our doors open to other options instead of loosing quality over quantity....

Alot of state of art technologies we might need to build better product we must be readily happy to absorb it...

100% indigenization should not mean no imports....

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Ray Sir, As far as it goes to Arjun MK1 in service it is indeed superior to T-90 which is under service, The trails were in favor of Arjun MBT due to its design based on Our specific requirements,

Regarding Made in India component, MK1 is 95% Made In India, Its parts are mainly manufactured by Pvt Industry ..

 

[Ray]

@Ray Sir, As far as it goes to Arjun MK1 in service it is indeed superior to T-90 which is under service, The trails were in favor of Arjun MBT due to its design based on Our specific requirements,

Regarding Made in India component, MK1 is 95% Made In India, Its parts are mainly manufactured by Pvt Industry ..

Have you seen it and used it or is it what is reported?

I have spoken to quite a few Armoured officers, and some say what you are saying and some say otherwise.

And that chap Ajai Shukla was all for T90 and then backflipped to promote Arjun.

I personally feel that unless we have a totally Indian tank in all respect, the worry of sanctions affecting our operational readiness will always be of concern in case of war.

 

[Pulkit]

The main issue is with th engine .... are we anywhere near to having our own engines?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, Was on it and talked to the crew, Some of the friends of mine were present during the trails, Mr Ajay Shukla views about Arjun and T-90 are not wrong, I take his words Only after i evaluate it with my own research ..

Arjun is our first tank design for our needs, Its main-gun & Ammunition, Armour and fire-control is made in our own country, Engine is however is a German, But that is being planed to replace with our own design engine ..

Have you seen it and used it or is it what is reported?

I have spoken to quite a few Armoured officers, and some say what you are saying and some say otherwise.

And that chap Ajai Shukla was all for T90 and then backflipped to promote Arjun.

I personally feel that unless we have a totally Indian tank in all respect, the worry of sanctions affecting our operational readiness will always be of concern in case of war.

 

[Peter]

The main issue is with th engine .... are we anywhere near to having our own engines?

It was reported in the papers that we originally had our own Indian engines in the tank. However as the orders were very few the German engine was used. I think govt should place more orders as then Indian engines will be used and that would be a positive development for our IA.

 

[Ray]

Sir, Was on it and talked to the crew, Some of the friends of mine were present during the trails, Mr Ajay Shukla views about Arjun and T-90 are not wrong, I take his words Only after i evaluate it with my own research ..

Arjun is our first tank design for our needs, Its main-gun & Ammunition, Armour and fire-control is made in our own country, Engine is however is a German, But that is being planed to replace with our own design engine ..

If it were so, then there should have been no controversy.

What are the points of the controversy and why?

I was in the Trials with Brig Pawan Langar.

 

[Pulkit]

Yes the numbers were les which made them costly ...
Respectable number in orders is what they deserve if they didnt have german engine option then they would have scrapped order saying price is too much and we dont want these Indian Tanks we are happy with the Russian Tin cans...(cash back).. And bought a few more....
they are upgrading them at such high prices why dont they buy new ....I AM sure they will not cost anything huge incomparison to cost for upgradation...

It was reported in the papers that we originally had our own Indian engines in the tank. However as the orders were very few the German engine was used. I think govt should place more orders as then Indian engines will be used and that would be a positive development for our IA.

 

[Pulkit]

If it were so, then there should have been no controversy.

What are the points of the controversy and why?

I was in the Trials with Brig Pawan Langar.

Sir the problem is the neglecting behaviour of IA or Defence forces towards trusting Indian Goods... Alot of factors add to it internal but the major ones are the lobbies controlling or manupulating Defense forces in one way or other to go for there product...
Arjun MK1 was built as per army requirement whereas T90 has more than few issues with electonic failures etc...
The controversy here is That Defense forces have a special ability to find minutest of issues when it comes to Indian products and they neglect major issues when it comes to Imported toys...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, I wish if things are that transparent in our defense, It is not so ..

There are foreign lobbies and their agents among our system which sole propose is to insure dependent India on these foreign parties ..

If it were so, then there should have been no controversy.

What are the points of the controversy and why?

 

[Blood+]

Re: Will Tejas MK2 be equivalant to Rafale?

DRDO imports all the main components and then assemble.

That way it is indigenous.

With all due respect sir,this is simply over stretch.What are the most critical parts of an mbt??Lets see,for example

1.Armor - The "Kanchan" and the follow on "Hybrid Armor" is developed by DMRE and HEMRL

2.Heavy ERA and NERA panels - HEMRL
High strength triple hardened steel-titanium alloys with thickness efficiency of 1.6 for hardened face plates - DMRE

3.L 52 Main gun - ARDE

4.Fire and gun control computers - BEL

5.Hydro gas suspension system - CVRDE

6.The tracks and automatic transmission - originally from Renk on the TDs and prototypes.But since then has been indigenised and being supplied by L&T.

7.Ammo - ARDE

8.Even day sights have been developed inhouse.

9The APU is indigenous too.


Only major subsystems that are imported are power plants
and night sights and it's perfectly logical too!!I mean who in their right mind would invest its already scares resources and skilled manpower on developing those items for just 124 systems??!!It would've never been economical.

The reality is the moment Pakis rejected the M1A1 for those T 80UDs,the Indian Army also lost its interest in Arjun,so there is no point what so ever in crying about imported parts,over weight,logistical issues and what not.

 

[Ray]

@Blood+

You have a point.

Some inputs though:

Initially it was on 50% imported sub assembly.

DRDO developed a Laser Warning Control System (LWCS) in cooperation with Elbit Limited of Israel

 

[Blood+]

Have you seen it and used it or is it what is reported?

I have spoken to quite a few Armoured officers, and some say what you are saying and some say otherwise.

And that chap Ajai Shukla was all for T90 and then backflipped to promote Arjun.

I personally feel that unless we have a totally Indian tank in all respect, the worry of sanctions affecting our operational readiness will always be of concern in case of war.

Sir,I understand what your concerns as an officer and your words over the 100% indigenisation issue is not at all wrong from your pov.I mean you guys are the ones who would have to fight the wars and in case of a sanction it's you who have to bear the burnt.

But even with taking into account all of these,is it really possible for a country like India to produce each and every subsystems in house??And that too just for 124 systems??!!

And you also have to remember that when this project was started in the early 90's,there were hardly any industrial complex that could have supported the DRDO.There was no way DRDO could have developed those vectronics and night sights all in house in absence of any prior experience and any meaningful industrial support...........not without significant time and cost overruns.Just take a look at LRDE - they had patented the GaAs TR modules for AESA radar antennas as far back as mid 90s.And by 2011,they had made significant progress in GaN technology.But despite of having the requisite know how and know why,India can not produce solid state TR modules in any meaningful numbers because our successive governments in all these years had never bothered to set up a single semi conductor foundry,essential for producing the modules!!Instead they wasted our hard earned resources in giving out freebies,subsidies and doles and on appeasing a particular community for its vote bank politics!!Now people would say DRDO can't even devrlop a radar and then calling them what not,without ever bothering to find out what the truth really is!!

Then there was the economic crunch of the 90s,it's called the lost decade and project Arjun like many others suffered too badly.

Look at Turkey's Altay MBT for example.Its L55 gun and ammo is imported from Rheinmetall,track,suspension,transmission all from Renk,Engine from MTU,sights from France,armor from RSA!!Virtually everything is of imported origin even with an assured order book for no less than a thousand tanks!!And their army had placed orders even before the first prototype was out!!Heck they order such a large nos even before fixing the GSQR for crying out loud!!Even then vast majority of its subsystems are of imported origins. So don't you think it's unfair on the Indian Army's part to expect the DRDO to develop each and every part by itself and that too for just 124 systems??