Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Ray

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Sir the problem is the neglecting behaviour of IA or Defence forces towards trusting Indian Goods... Alot of factors add to it internal but the major ones are the lobbies controlling or manupulating Defense forces in one way or other to go for there product...
Arjun MK1 was built as per army requirement whereas T90 has more than few issues with electonic failures etc...
The controversy here is That Defense forces have a special ability to find minutest of issues when it comes to Indian products and they neglect major issues when it comes to Imported toys...
I wonder if there is a fascination for imported weaponry and platforms.

Take the INSAS.

There is lot of grouse amongst those who consider themselves as experts, but the one who use it have no issues. And INSAS is a DRDO design and Indian produced.

Take the equipment BEL produces. No complaints and welcome wholeheartedly because it works to IA requirement.

One must realise that trials are conducted by troops on the ground, whose lives depend on the equipment and they will be dead serious about their Report.

I have been involved in quite a few trails, at various ranks along my service.

For instance, there was much lobbying over 81mm Illuminating ammunition. Bofors had a huge lobby, but we found Simmel of Italy having better illumination and less failures. And the report said so; and so Bofors, inspite of the push lost out.

Or the Krasnopol 155mm laser-guided shells. It did not deliver in the HAA where I was in the Evaluating Team. Just too bad for Krasnopol 155mm laser-guided shells.

At the ground level, the IA is quite clear that whatever is tested must be to IA's and the troops' advantage.

And it is not that the DRDO does not lobby hard or claim that if we do not clear it, it will be a disincentive to indigenous defence industry.

Valid point.

But then those who will benefit by any weapon, weapon platform are the ones who will die, if duds are cleared for any reason.

What do you say?
 
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Blood+

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@Blood+

You have a point.

Some inputs though:

Initially it was on 50% imported sub assembly.

DRDO developed a Laser Warning Control System (LWCS) in cooperation with Elbit Limited of Israel
Yes indeed sir and I'm fully aware of it.But back then,the requisite military industrial complex was simply non-existent in our country.You of all us would definitely know much better and especially than me.
And I'm not for once saying that Arjun or DRDO is flawless and the know all be all!!Heck Arjun MkII even with all its improvements still suffers from significant and serious design issues till now.But it does not mean that Army should just discard them altogether,you do not throw out the baby with the water now,do you??They should hire a third party,the Germans may be to evaluate the design and change it as per their inputs.That's the only way forward if we really wanna see India self reliant.Discarding the design altogether and throwing an all new GSQR on DRDO's face won't simply cut it.It will in fact make things just worse from as it is at present and the vicious cycle will continue.
 
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Ray

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Sir,I understand what your concerns as an officer and your words over the 100% indigenisation issue is not at all wrong from your pov.I mean you guys are the ones who would have to fight the wars and in case of a sanction it's you who have to bear the burnt.

But even with taking into account all of these,is it really possible for a country like India to produce each and every subsystems in house??And that too just for 124 systems??!!

And you also have to remember that when this project was started in the early 90's,there were hardly any industrial complex that could have supported the DRDO.There was no way DRDO could have developed those vectronics and night sights all in house in absence of any prior experience and any meaningful industrial support...........not without significant time and cost overruns.Just take a look at LRDE - they had patented the GaAs TR modules for AESA radar antennas as far back as mid 90s.And by 2011,they had made significant progress in GaN technology.But despite of having the requisite know how and know why,India can not produce solid state TR modules in any meaningful numbers because our successive governments in all these years had never bothered to set up a single semi conductor foundry,essential for producing the modules!!Instead they wasted our hard earned resources in giving out freebies,subsidies and doles and on appeasing a particular community for its vote bank politics!!Now people would say DRDO can't even devrlop a radar and then calling them what not,without ever bothering to find out what the truth really is!!

Then there was the economic crunch of the 90s,it's called the lost decade and project Arjun like many others suffered too badly.

Look at Turkey's Altay MBT for example.Its L55 gun and ammo is imported from Rheinmetall,track,suspension,transmission all from Renk,Engine from MTU,sights from France,armor from RSA!!Virtually everything is of imported origin even with an assured order book for no less than a thousand tanks!!And their army had placed orders even before the first prototype was out!!Heck they order such a large nos even before fixing the GSQR for crying out loud!!Even then vast majority of its subsystems are of imported origins. So don't you think it's unfair on the Indian Army's part to expect the DRDO to develop each and every part by itself and that too for just 124 systems??
You raise interesting points.

When indigenous designing and prototypes are on the board, it is not for mere 124 numbers. It is for a genre of such equipment for all those who in the IA will use it.

All prototypes naturally will be expensive, be it in Indai

If I may answer them seriatim to the best of my abilities.

1. if there were no industrial infrastructure, then the project should not have been done. In fact, we should have waited for the infrastructure to be built up by the Govt. It is foolish to undertake a project merely for the sake of making a statement that we have arrived.

2. Actually, I am led to believe that quite a few of the systems and sub systems are reverse engineered and with greater add ons.

I would not compare what were Turkey's compulsions with India.

I find it rather odd to place a huge order, as Turkey has done, based on something that has not yet been developed and found suitable.

Would you buy the car that is said converts to a helicopter in dense traffic and place a bulk order as a dealer, sinking a huge sum, hoping that it works out?



I wonder.

Yes indeed sir and I'm fully aware of it.But back then,the requisite military industrial complex was simply non-existent in our country.You of all us would definitely know much better and especially than me.
And I'm not for once saying that Arjun or DRDO is flawless and the know all be all!!Heck Arjun MkII even with all its improvements still suffers from significant and serious design issues till now.But it does not matter Army should discard them altogether,they should hire a third party,the Germans may be to evaluate the design and change it as per their inputs.That's the only way forward if we really wanna see India self reliant.Discarding the design altogether and throwing an all new GSQR on DRDO's face won't simply cut it.It will in fact make things just worse from as it is at present and the vicious cycle will continue.
If one goes by the technical specifications, then Arjun is a fabulous tank.

Yet, I would not think that the IA would reject what is a superior equipment. more so when they are aware the money saved by having indigenous equipment will mean more equipment elsewhere so as to make the Army operationally fit.

One must realise that even the COAS cannot legislate when there will be the next war. And I don't think he is foolish enough to put his head on the block!
 
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Ray

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Re: Will Tejas MK2 be equivalant to Rafale?

I am not against indigenisation.

I am all for it,

All I root for is that we should have a totally indigenised equipment so that no country can bully us with sanctions when we are forced to embark on a war.
 

Pulkit

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Sir the examples stated by you are correct but we have also seen that at many a atimes Indian Defense has been alwasy bent towards foreign toys...
Slightly going off topic...
When it comes to ordering any foreign products the number are mostly huge and prefrred that way saying cost factor...
but when the number of Indian Products you see they are too small orders even for achieve a good cost..
Example you take Tejas and Arjun tank only.

The Russian tanks when delivered were without alot of facilities IA wanted but they still got them and later spent huge sum of money on upgradation...
The electronic of Russians tanks was faulty still they kept induction...
Same was with various A/C we bought....

But when It is an Indian product they go way beyond a nominal extent of testing...


You say abit INSAS ... Its a great weapon but even then they were rigid to use it initially...
Then few faults came even after rectification it could earn the trust back wheras for foreign products its a minor issue....
They are looking for foreign weapon to replace INSAS i read somewhere...

Sir you have been part of various evaluating teams..... Is it fair to test Tejas/Arjun etc for such a long duration of time....?
Tejas after 10 years of test flights still has to make so much effort for FOC ....
Being sure about product is good but where does this feeling go when its a foreign good....

Same is Indian Bofors Dhanush the order of 414 is still not confirmed after clearing all field tests ....
And i am quite sure that they will find a reason to keep it as low as 114....sighting some non***** reason....
In soldier is quite happy with the india goods but with that top official dont get kickbacks....

The defense lobby in India has affected all our major projects till now apart from missile ... Now recent example is FGFA.... to push rafale they halted FGFA....
Good news today is decrease in number of rafale (just an expectation not confirmed)....

I wonder if there is a fascination for imported weaponry and platforms.

Take the INSAS.

There is lot of grouse amongst those who consider themselves as experts, but the one who use it have no issues. And INSAS is a DRDO design and Indian produced.

Take the equipment BEL produces. No complaints and welcome wholeheartedly because it works to IA requirement.

One must realise that trials are conducted by troops on the ground, whose lives depend on the equipment and they will be dead serious about their Report.

I have been involved in quite a few trails, at various ranks along my service.

For instance, there was much lobbying over 81mm Illuminating ammunition. Bofors had a huge lobby, but we found Simmel of Italy having better illumination and less failures. And the report said so; and so Bofors, inspite of the push lost out.

Or the Krasnopol 155mm laser-guided shells. It did not deliver in the HAA where I was in the Evaluating Team. Just too bad for Krasnopol 155mm laser-guided shells.

At the ground level, the IA is quite clear that whatever is tested must be to IA's and the troops' advantage.

And it is not that the DRDO does not lobby hard or claim that if we do not clear it, it will be a disincentive to indigenous defence industry.

Valid point.

But then those who will benefit by any weapon, weapon platform are the ones who will die, if duds are cleared for any reason.

What do you say?
 
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Pulkit

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Re: Will Tejas MK2 be equivalant to Rafale?

I am not against indigenisation.

I am all for it,

All I root for is that we should have a totally indigenised equipment so that no country can bully us with sanctions when we are forced to embark on a war.
100% indigenisation is they best option ... but its not economical....
The only thing one must make sure is wat ever is being imported can be manufactured home...
Assume a clip or bracket part in India is made at 100Rs and same in US is supplied at 90Rs and better quality (as tehy could be manufacturing large numbers) then we can go for it ...
But if they put sanctions we must have the ability to make it at home....

I mean we must have an option even if inferior to the available one... but till we can afford or gain we can have the better part...
 

Blood+

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Re: Will Tejas MK2 be equivalant to Rafale?

I am not against indigenisation.

I am all for it,

All I root for is that we should have a totally indigenised equipment so that no country can bully us with sanctions when we are forced to embark on a war.

Then it's gonna be a problem sir.Although India has improved quite a lot in recent years,we are not the USA.For the time being,Indian Army has to take the systems with a few imported subsystems.

Like the power plant since the status of the Cumminis India's power plant still remains unknown.

Then there is the thermal sights.It's just very recently in 2012 when IRDE first developed 3rd generation thermals for assault rifles,Thermal sniper scopes and hand held thermal imagers.So DRDO is fairly new and relatively inexperienced and quite naturally they will take time before they can field world class thermal sights for armored vehicles.
Even the T 90S aren't sanction proof in this regard since they do not use Russian thermals but French ones!!So they will be as much prone to sanctions as would be the Arjuns!!
 

Kunal Biswas

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There is input i wish to add in Sir`s post, As its about Infrastructure ..

There are many member here calling why so lesser number of Arjun orders, The answer simply in overhaul infrastructure around the country which worth billions, The former Government which has ruled this country mostly had made sure simple flow of imports ..

Despite Arjun being a better tank than anyother in IA tank fleet it cannot be mass produce due to this reason, Where as T-90 which is flawed and more or less a hanger queen is being re-rectified by DRDO ..

I hope for the best under this government that our tanker get the best what they deserve ..

1. if there were no industrial infrastructure, then the project should not have been done. In fact, we should have waited for the infrastructure to be built up by the Govt. It is foolish to undertake a project merely for the sake of making a statement that we have arrived.
 

Ajeesh Kumar S

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armys main complaint against arjun is it,s too heavy.but compared with some western tanks like ABRAHMS ,LECLERCK,and MERKAVA are also to heavy. arjun is mainly useful for desert conditions.but t-series is not god for desert conditions and require much maintenance .so indian army requested to feild more ARJUNS on western border and field polish light tank in northern Chinese border.the polish 120mm light tank is suitable option for mountain warfare...
 

Kunal Biswas

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Arjun is heavy that is because Army wanted it to be Heavy keeping in mind about bridges, Bridges in Urban and National Highway can take Arjun`s weight but in rural and smaller towns the roads not Bridges can take that amount of weight nor able to do with T-tanks weight either, Therefore its null to take Arjun weight as a penalty, Arjun weight does not effect its mobality either that is coz of its wider tracks which reduce is ground pressure compare to other tanks in IA, This increase its grip on the ground and lesser sinking inside sand, Compare to other tanks in IA ..

It can operate better at desert condition so does over water obsiticals and Water canals of Punjab and Rivers beyond Punjab, Arjun cross rivers without preparation as its design to do so, Where as on others this is not possible without at least 20mins of preparation





armys main complaint against arjun is it,s too heavy.but compared with some western tanks like ABRAHMS ,LECLERCK,and MERKAVA are also to heavy. arjun is mainly useful for desert conditions.but t-series is not god for desert conditions and require much maintenance .so indian army requested to feild more ARJUNS on western border...
 

Pulkit

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Arjun is heavy that is because Army wanted it to be Heavy keeping in mind about bridges, Bridges in Urban and National Highway can take Arjun`s weight but in rural and smaller towns the roads not Bridges can take that amount of weight nor able to do with T-tanks weight either, Therefore its null to take Arjun weight as a penalty, Arjun weight does not effect its mobality either that is coz of its wider tracks which reduce is ground pressure compare to other tanks in IA, This increase its grip on the ground and lesser sinking inside sand, Compare to other tanks in IA ..

It can operate better at desert condition so does over water obsiticals and Water canals of Punjab and Rivers beyond Punjab, Arjun cross rivers without preparation as its design to do so, Where as on others this is not possible without at least 20mins of preparation



@Ajeesh Kumar S



Arjun is more powerful and it has all the components asked by the IA.
The weight cannot be a issue...
In desert I read some where that the mobility will be compromised because of weight but as we know it exerts the same pressure as teh T(0 or any other tank (actually better than those tin tanks)...

Then what is there that we are missing as weight cannot be a genuiene factor....

Desert terrain test of Arjun were not highlighted to say that tehy have had any issue there..
If it has more weight then As per my knowledge the power is also more in Arjun then the accuracy and various other factors...

If it is not weight... Then is it lack of trust (Not on product but on Manufacturers)?
Or as we have Kunal sir you also pointed out once .... Arm Lobbies????
 
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ersakthivel

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How AK Antony damaged the soul of the Army

While Manmohan Singh's personality in the psychological context of the Indians was a perfect veneer for pliability, criminal collusion and subversion of the spirit of Indian Constitution, Antony's assiduously acquired 'clean image' came in handy for 'powers that be' to subvert and wreck the Indian Armed Forces from within.

It may be reiterated here that Manmohan Singh in no sense was an elected Prime Minister and therefore his writ did not extend to picking up his own defence minister. The Prime Minister and the defence minister were picked up by the same authority and for same considerations, the least of all 'integrity'.

In fact, integrity and incorruptibility, financial and moral, were two biggest disqualifications in the previous regime.If Manmohan Singh delivered to his political benefactor and mentor by way of CWG, Coal and 2G; Antony did not lag behind. Never before in the history of India, the three services were targeted the manner in which it was done during Antony's stewardship of the MoD. Never in independent India, had the arms lobby become so brazen and criminal that it dared to manipulate 'chain of succession' of service chiefs.

The Indian Army was deliberately dragged into controversy by fabricating age related issue in respect of an Army Chief. Mr Antony vouched for the integrity of this Army Chief when he reported the Tatra scam to him. When the age issue came up in the Supreme Court, the government of which Mr Antony was a part, submitted an affidavit to the honourable bench, testifying the integrity of the concerned Army Chief.

If the Army Chief was a man of integrity, then Mr Antony must answer as to why did he re-elicit the opinion of the Law Ministry, when it had categorically ruled in favour of the Army Chief. The common buzz is that it was done at the behest of someone, to whom Mr Antony owed his office.The next in the line was Indian Air Force. Once the VVIP Chopper scam was reported from a foreign soil, as is invariably the case, a former Air Chief was made the scapegoat for allegedly being recipient of kick-backs.

The primary fault of this Air Chief was that as demanded, he had given his 'opinion' on the requisite operational parameters for procurement of VVIP Chopper. Even say, this Air Chief was guilty in the reckoning of Mr Antony for having allegedly received a small fraction of the kick-backs, the Defence Minister should have been worried as to who were the major recipients of public money. On this account both the Prime Minister and the Defence Minister were silent, because their puppeteer was in the grave shadow of doubt!

Now was the turn of Indian Navy. More than dozen accidents in a matter of months! It included two submarines. Many serving and retired Naval Officers asserted that the accidents were result of age related problems of the naval inventory. After every accident, the Naval Chief was put under-pressure. Finally, the powers that be succeeded. The Navy Chief resigned.

The desired person was put in Office. Such was the force and osmosis of this new Naval Chief that all age related problems of the inventory have mended without intervention and there have been no accidents thereafter. Very poor script Mr Antony! You and your patron indeed think very poorly of the intelligence of Indians and integrity of people in uniform.

Sadly there were some high ranking personnel in uniform to oblige the designs of your benefactors and the arms lobby. Subversion and sabotage by the arms lobby could not have acquired this new high, but for the indulgence of the dispensation. It was during the decade of the UPA rule that the notorious 'Chandigarh Gang' surfaced as the mainstay of the international arms lobby.

This gang is not necessarily in Chandigarh alone, but nevertheless is centered around it. It comprises some retired Officers, politicians, journalists and prominent newspapers. One of these newspapers, particularly one journalist was on an overdrive during the 'age-row' of the then Army Chief. It had gone to the extent of getting hysterical. Its obsession with General VK Singh continues. Another newspaper of the same ilk, carried the 'coup story' and a full page advertisement on 'Tatra' in the same issue.

The same very 'Chandigarh Gang' has been in the forefront of hyping the Chinese threat and disparaging the DRDO, all at the behest of the arms lobby. The media houses that are the part of this lobby, inconformity with the imperatives of the international arms manufacturers, from time to time bombards the audiences with 'Chinese here, Chinese there and Chinese everywhere' stories. Patriotic citizens should rather rely on the version of the Indian Army on these stories, then being misled by some of the unscrupulous media houses. Heading this 'Chandigarh Gang' was none other than the illustrious colleague of Mr Antony, who it is believed that was desperate to see through a 'succession plan' in the Indian Army.

It is also believed that it was he who prevailed on Mr Antony to re-obtain the opinion of the Law Ministry on the age issue of the said Army Chief.Threat analysis should be a major concern and responsibility of a defence minister. Mr Antony allowed the MoD to be hijacked on this issue. He equally shares the blame for India's sell out at Sharm-el-Sheikh.

As a result of Indo-US nuclear deal, he is equally responsible for degrading India's indigenous nuclear quest by slowing down the process of 'fast breeder reactor' and the 'thorium route'. If there are three ends to the spectrum of warfare, i.e. sub-conventional, conventional, and nuclear, then the entire gamut should be the concern of a defence minister.

If a prime minister is hysterical about only one end of this spectrum, then the motivations are not nationalistic. At the conventional level, Mr Antony did not allow one major arms acquisition even in the face of pernicious security imperatives on one pretext or the other. Indian security became a victim of the murderous internecine rivalry of the various arms lobbies.

At the sub-conventional or proxy war end of the spectrum, the defence minister allowed India's bargaining position to be neutralized vis-à-vis Pakistan by allowing the 'Chandigarh Gang' to implicate Col Purohit for Malegaon and Samjhauta blasts at the behest of international lobbies. The specter of 'Hindu terror' was drummed up by the media of the same 'Chandigarh Gang'. When the Army Court of Inquiry absolved this Officer, the least the defence minister should have done is to honourably reinstate him. This is bound to recoil as one of the biggest scams involving highest levels of the country. An unpardonable act on the part of the defence minister was to acquiesce to the machinations by the arms lobby for inquiry on the Technical Support Group (TSG) to kill the political prospects of Gen VK Singh.

The TSG raised for acquiring operational and tactical intelligence in the wake of 26/11. Those who are in the know of the splendid achievements of TSG, very much doubt the patriotism of the characters who questioned the functioning of the organization in order to pander anti-nationals in the Kashmir Valley and their Pakistani benefactors.

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Now we know why some sections of "eggsperts in defence media" are engaging constant mudslinging on indigenous projects like tejas and Arjun
 

Neeraj Mathur

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Saurav Jha "@SJha1618 17m
Arjun 120 mm rifled gun muzzle velocity 1650 m/s and above. Rheinmettal L55 1580 to 1750 m/s.
effective range of Arjun's gun is 5k.
6:11 PM - 25 Sep 2014 ·
 

Kunal Biswas

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Got some Images from Joint trails and Picture of combat drill along Infantry at Rajas-than, Will be posting shortly ..
 

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