AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

Rahul Singh

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i think we should 1st focus on LCA rather just jump into another project tht to a stealth 1...itz like asking a baby to run b4 crawling.....
With LCA getting IOC, ADA design team will be left with almost nothing significant to do. It is The Perfect time, we start taking new projects in hand.

As far as i know technologies developed for LCA MK-2 will be close to 5 gen and can easily find way into prototypes of AMCA, engine developed with Snecma will be developed anyway irrespective of AMCA, NAL will continue developing advanced composite airframe, many DRDO labs will continue working on add-on systems which enhances LO, etc...In sum, development of almost everything that will be required in the development of AMCA is already at satisfactory stage and at no where we are required to re-invent wheel. So to my belief this AMCA project will allow us to retain knowledge as well as enhance it day by day.

BTW i'll like to know how ADA will be distracted(as per you) with this AMCA project...
 
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Agantrope

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With LCA getting IOC, ADA design team will be left with almost nothing significant to do. It is The Perfect time, we start taking new projects in hand.

As far as i know technologies developed for LCA MK-2 will be close to 5 gen and can easily find way into prototypes of AMCA, engine developed with Snecma will be developed anyway irrespective of AMCA, NAL will continue developing advanced composite airframe, many DRDO labs will continue working on add-on systems which enhances LO, etc...In sum, development of almost everything that will be required in the development of AMCA is already at satisfactory stage and at no where we are required to re-invent wheel. So to my belief this AMCA project will allow us to retain knowledge as well as enhance it day by day.

BTW i'll like to know how ADA will be distracted(as per you) with this AMCA project...


Developing a new aircraft is now not a big deal for ADA, what i doubt is the stealth part of it. Any can one throw some light whether this is LMFS program of the MiG as already said previous?
 

SHASH2K2

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Developing a new aircraft is now not a big deal for ADA, what i doubt is the stealth part of it. Any can one throw some light whether this is LMFS program of the MiG as already said previous?
This is where FGFA program design may come into picture. Not sure if Russians are sharing design details with India .
 

Rahul Singh

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Don't how much Russians will share at initial stage but at production stage they will have to ToT and here we will gain technology. Modified or adapted form of these technologies can easily find way into AMCA, so i think we need not to worry too about their availability. BTW, i think ADA will go incremental(MK by MK) with stealth on AMCA.
 

Neil

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Developing a new aircraft is now not a big deal for ADA, what i doubt is the stealth part of it.
i have been saying the same thing....
and also does internal weapons bay restrict the number of missiles capacity of an aircraft....??
 

Neil

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With LCA getting IOC, ADA design team will be left with almost nothing significant to do. It is The Perfect time, we start taking new projects in hand.


BTW i'll like to know how ADA will be distracted(as per you) with this AMCA project...
LCA navy project has just began......and will require sufficient time and resources of ADA....after that why not...??!!
is ADA assisting in FGFA....??
 
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Rahul Singh

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Developing a new aircraft is now not a big deal for ADA, what i doubt is the stealth part of it. Any can one throw some light whether this is LMFS program of the MiG as already said previous?
It is not LMFS at all rather it is upgradation of yet unofficial project MCA. Refer this lot of info inside.



A twin-engine delta planfrom version, which was a direct derivative from the LCA, has since been shelved
Original plans called MCA(Medium Combat Aircraft). Design(as you can see in above pic) was a vertical and horizontal tail less twin engine delta platform. In sum, a vertical tail less twin engine derivative of LCA.


low observable requirements demanded a fully new airframe approach, which finally ended in the design that people got to see at Aero India 2009.
Upgraded plan now called AMCA(Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft) aka NGFA(Next Generation Fighter Aircraft). As you can see in pic it is completely a new design and more convention in sense that it sports horizontal tail(elevator) as well as vertical stabilizer(rudder), its main wings are also not exactly delta and doesn't bears significant similarity with older design.
 
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Rahul Singh

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LCA navy project has just began......and will require sufficient time and resources of ADA....after that why not...??!!
is ADA assisting in FGFA....??
No, project N-LCA has not just began rather it is half done. New landing gear already developed, dropped nose already tested on PV-5, Tail-hook design and fabrication already completed, LEVCON already designed and fabricated. In sum design of both variants have already been freezed and fabrication of required components already done. And now NP-1 will roll out in a week.

Should remember that N-LCA is an adapted AF-LCA and is riding piggy back, meaning work load on design team is anywhere between 1/20 to 1/30 of what it was during designing AF-LCA. And even with design it means only modification, no detail designing.

One should remember that ADA has already completed feasibility studies and various wind tunnel models have already been tested, broadly specification and required systems and sub-systems have already been finalized.

BTW are you assuming that size of design team have remained static.

is ADA assisting in FGFA....??
ADA is not an active partner in Indo-Russian FGFA but what HAL will contribute will come from ADA/DRDO. So in that sense, yes ADA is assisting and contributing.
 

Neil

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No, project N-LCA has not just began rather it is half done. New landing gear already developed, dropped nose already tested on PV-5, Tail-hook design and fabrication already completed, LEVCON already designed and fabricated. In sum design of both variants have already been freezed and fabrication of required components already done. And now NP-1 will roll out in a week.

Should remember that N-LCA is an adapted AF-LCA and is riding piggy back, meaning work load on design team is anywhere between 1/20 to 1/30 of what it was during designing AF-LCA. And even with design it means only modification, no detail designing.

One should remember that ADA has already completed feasibility studies and various wind tunnel models have already been tested, broadly specification and required systems and sub-systems have already been finalized.

BTW are you assuming that size of design team have remained static.


ADA is not an active partner in Indo-Russian FGFA but what HAL will contribute will come from ADA/DRDO. So in that sense, yes ADA is assisting and contributing.
hey dude...thanks for that info....!!:)
 

Neil

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BTW are you assuming that size of design team have remained static. [/QUOTE]

no...but we dont know to how much proportion it has increased.....considering there is alwayz number crunch in are country...
is it also assisting in light combat helicopter and RTA-70 civilian transport aircraft.....??
 

Rahul Singh

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no...but we dont know to how much proportion it has increased.....considering there is alwayz number crunch in are country...
is it also assisting in light combat helicopter and RTA-70 civilian transport aircraft.....??
Ok.

See ADA is an autonomous agency under DRDO and it has all the facility except production required in development of jets. As of now sole task in hands of ADA is only and only project LCA(both 'AF' and 'N' version) and nothing more.

HAL is a DPSU under MOD and have all the facilities including production required to develop aircrafts from scratch. And LCH is completely their responsibility.

NAL is a laboratory under CSIR and have all the facility except production required in development of an aircraft form scratch. RTA-70 and SARAS is their responsibility.

In due course as per requirements these organisations share expertize and help each other but its the nodal body which is always responsible for designing of what they plan to make.

-----------------
If size and expertize within ADA have not increased in time the LCA would not have reached where it is today.
 

Neil

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Ok.

See ADA is an autonomous agency under DRDO and it has all the facility except production required in development of jets. As of now sole task in hands of ADA is only and only project LCA(both 'AF' and 'N' version) and nothing more.

HAL is a DPSU under MOD and have all the facilities including production required to develop aircrafts from scratch. And LCH is completely their responsibility.

NAL is a laboratory under CSIR and have all the facility except production required in development of an aircraft form scratch. RTA-70 and SARAS is their responsibility.

In due course as per requirements these organisations share expertize and help each other but its the nodal body which is always responsible for designing of what they plan to make.

-----------------
If size and expertize within ADA have not increased in time the LCA would not have reached where it is today.
ok....thankx for that info mate....!!:)
 

sabertooth

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any updates when are we going to get a Prototype for NGFA ready? my only concern is for the delays DRDO is known for, hope and i hope this FGFA is ready in time , and not ready when we already are looking at a possible sixth/next generation bird
 

nrj

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any updates when are we going to get a Prototype for NGFA ready? my only concern is for the delays DRDO is known for, hope and i hope this FGFA is ready in time , and not ready when we already are looking at a possible sixth/next generation bird
The AMCA proposition is yet to be put forward to GOI. The project approval & the funds will be allotted in next 5-6 months. The prototype & final timeline will be declared only after that.
 

neo29

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looks like my argument a few days back is slightly correct.

there is a huge possibility that the number of MRCA will be cut and the money indirectly be put into MCA R&D,I think MOD thinks more rationally then you guys:blum3::d_training:
No way Mmrca money to be cut and put in MCA. Infact mmrca money may be increased. MCA is years away from operational. Its not that India doesnt have money and have to cut budgets from one project to allocate to another.
 

jatkshatriya

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:emot159: now thats what i call an aircraft....hopefully it wont take as much time as the LCA as now we have the basic infrastructure....we will also gain some experience by assembling the FGFA PAKFA in india under the transfer of tech from russia,, and we already have considerable experience in radar absorbent paint used in our stealth ships,,when the MCA will be ready , it will be serious competition for the US F-22 to tap world markets of developing nations as it will be very cheap compared to that, by 2020 we will have LCA-mak 2s, MCA, PAKFAs, SU-30s,,,LCHs , may be even a stealthier version of LCH , our airforce will be superior to the chinese..hopefully :)
 

Tshering22

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:emot159: now thats what i call an aircraft....hopefully it wont take as much time as the LCA as now we have the basic infrastructure....we will also gain some experience by assembling the FGFA PAKFA in india under the transfer of tech from russia,, and we already have considerable experience in radar absorbent paint used in our stealth ships,,when the MCA will be ready , it will be serious competition for the US F-22 to tap world markets of developing nations as it will be very cheap compared to that, by 2020 we will have LCA-mak 2s, MCA, PAKFAs, SU-30s,,,LCHs , may be even a stealthier version of LCH , our airforce will be superior to the chinese..hopefully :)

Buddy, we can never gain numerical superiority to Chinese which should also not be the aim. The aim should be to train an IAF pilot in such a way that he alone is capable of downing a dozen enemy fighters and for that, trainers are essential in basic, inter and advanced stage. Now that IAF has woken up to the lack of trainers in the air force, hopefully we can be as lethal as the other IAF in Asia--Israeli Air Force.

Apart from AMCA, FGFA/PAKFA, MRCA and Tejas, we need to make sure that our fighter pilots are trained to the blade's edge in both old-school dogfighting as well as BVR combat. Apart from this, it is important to ensure that low level flying below the radar coverage is also mastered for rapid ground assaults on enemy columns or airfields, to distinguish between dummy and real fighters parked, to train and be aware of how many stationing points the enemy has and how to make him bleed enough before he enters Indian territory so that it is an easy kill.

No offense to either Chinese or Pakistani members, but this is a pure tactic that I am explaining here.

With regards to China, the hostile terrain and airspace of Tibet offers a buffer zone for the PLAAF: it means that in order for IAF to bomb Chinese key military installations and cities, we'd have lost considerable fuel and pilot's energy in crossing Tibet. Aerial fueling tankers can only enter once the potential aerial threat from enemy side has been weakened. While if PLAAF has to strike us, their missiles can simply move into Occupied Aksai Chin and simply target Delhi which would save more cost.

Losing Tibet and inefficient strategic planning was the biggest blunder Nehru committed while forming India. Had Tibet remained an independent country, we would have had the advantage of a buffer zone as much as the Chinese would have.

China's strongest point is that it has ballistic missiles deployed right next door while our missiles have to do considerable maneuvering and traveling before they can strike Chinese cities in the even of a war. Our short-sighted civilian politicians (not required in defense planning matters) seem to have as usual, callously over-looked this.


About Pakistan, there's no such issue since there are no natural boundaries for IAF or PAF to assault each others' territories except man-made SAM batteries and resources how each side uses. This is where AMCA's and PAKFA's stealth come in handy to soften enemy aerial offense or even obliterate enemy airfields in the forward areas to let the conventional fighters and the Army wreak havoc.
 

Param

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Buddy, we can never gain numerical superiority to Chinese which should also not be the aim. The aim should be to train an IAF pilot in such a way that he alone is capable of downing a dozen enemy fighters and for that, trainers are essential in basic, inter and advanced stage. Now that IAF has woken up to the lack of trainers in the air force, hopefully we can be as lethal as the other IAF in Asia--Israeli Air Force.

Apart from AMCA, FGFA/PAKFA, MRCA and Tejas, we need to make sure that our fighter pilots are trained to the blade's edge in both old-school dogfighting as well as BVR combat. Apart from this, it is important to ensure that low level flying below the radar coverage is also mastered for rapid ground assaults on enemy columns or airfields, to distinguish between dummy and real fighters parked, to train and be aware of how many stationing points the enemy has and how to make him bleed enough before he enters Indian territory so that it is an easy kill.

No offense to either Chinese or Pakistani members, but this is a pure tactic that I am explaining here.

With regards to China, the hostile terrain and airspace of Tibet offers a buffer zone for the PLAAF: it means that in order for IAF to bomb Chinese key military installations and cities, we'd have lost considerable fuel and pilot's energy in crossing Tibet. Aerial fueling tankers can only enter once the potential aerial threat from enemy side has been weakened. While if PLAAF has to strike us, their missiles can simply move into Occupied Aksai Chin and simply target Delhi which would save more cost.

Losing Tibet and inefficient strategic planning was the biggest blunder Nehru committed while forming India. Had Tibet remained an independent country, we would have had the advantage of a buffer zone as much as the Chinese would have.

China's strongest point is that it has ballistic missiles deployed right next door while our missiles have to do considerable maneuvering and traveling before they can strike Chinese cities in the even of a war. Our short-sighted civilian politicians (not required in defense planning matters) seem to have as usual, callously over-looked this.


About Pakistan, there's no such issue since there are no natural boundaries for IAF or PAF to assault each others' territories except man-made SAM batteries and resources how each side uses. This is where AMCA's and PAKFA's stealth come in handy to soften enemy aerial offense or even obliterate enemy airfields in the forward areas to let the conventional fighters and the Army wreak havoc.
I too agree with most of what you said but I doubt whether the Chinese would be bombing Delhi. Just imagine chinese cruise missiles and fighters blowing up South block or parliament. That's not going to happen. Becoz then India would have to retaliate against their Capital & that can only be done with Agni missiles.
 

sayareakd

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I too agree with most of what you said but I doubt whether the Chinese would be bombing Delhi. Just imagine chinese cruise missiles and fighters blowing up South block or parliament. That's not going to happen. Becoz then India would have to retaliate against their Capital & that can only be done with Agni missiles.
not attack on capital but may be attack on Hindon air base, will do great damage.
 

Tshering22

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Cruise missiles target areas of vital importance and ballistic missiles won't just take out air bases--- they'll take out entire Delhi. This is what is the blunder of Nehru's silly and impractical policies I am talking about. Losing Tibet and then losing our own Aksai Chin are the worst blunders keeping Chinese in mind apart from keeping the crown of India i.e. Kashmir a hostage to jihadis and Islamist fundamentalists in the valley.

We don't have any official buffer zones like Russia and China (now) have. Our greatest defence was Himalayan ranges that acted as a natural barrier against Chinese aggression and now that is being compromised due to corrupt and weak national leadership.
 

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