pavanvenkatesh
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Exactly my point first complete the projects at hand then go for new one's
AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)
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gogbot
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May i have a turn at putting forward a different perspective.
For starers try to forget everything Time of India is saying , all they have done is criticizes every aspect of it , unecessarliy , just because they have retrospective point of view does not mean , you don't consider the ground realties of the time
Even with the delays it has not been 30 years yet. all things considered its just been a little over 21 years since , since development of the Tejas aircraft started.
The time between 1983 and 1985, was spent with DRDO/HAL actually getting ready for the project. Making facilities , getiing infrastructure equipment e.t.c .
This was the first time something like this had been attempted in India and a a lot of infrastructure had to be built up from the ground
This is because all they had at this point was the program goal
And as you remember the near economic collapse and subsequent crunch of the early 1990's and late 80's there was nmot much funding to go around .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas_timeline
if your interested in getting to know the proper time line for the Tejas.
And i have to disagree with you, the level of funding , manpower and technical capabilities that exist in the nation right now has risen exponentially. You are selling us shot on this.
Tejas is a legacy project , its gone on for too long , thats part of the problem in our attempts to keep up with creeping requirements , we have not just developed one system but multiple systems , just building on one another in development it self.
That is the kind of capability that exists right now, and with some of the Tejas development coming to a close after 2013 , we need to focus on using the expertise we have gained on other projects.
And that is what we are doing right now with the AMCA , planning the next step, AMCA is still in the very preliminary stages,
For perspective its still between 1983-1986 phase of the LCA program. as the requirements are finalized we will see a technology and infrastructure build up .
HAl MArrut used every manner of foreign equipment. even a foreign designer, the aircraft was underpowered and over produced. To put it in perspective it was our JF-17 .
When Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) set out to make the GTX-35VS Kaveri Engine .
These were their only accomplishments before then.
And to this day India still lacks a high altitude testing facility , so all out engines are sent to Russia for high altitude testing testing .
After years of neglect in out own indigenous defense sector, elements inside our government and gave our people their biggest challenge.(keep in mind India had only recently detonated her first nuclear device in 1976 , effectively silencing Pakistan and its arms' race with us, we could divert resource from what was then our meager defense budget from imports to Indigenous development)
it took them nearly 7 years of preparation between 1983 and 1991 . When the aircraft design was finalized and ready for development
Both in their set backs and their achievements.
It still is the worlds lightest fighter aircraft built with a unique carbon composite airframe. Designed to be built in 2/3 the time of a regular aircraft.
Featuring advanced negative RSS and its highly complex FCL and FBL systems. With 0 crashes.
It also clocked a speed of mach 1.2 when flying a little over sea level
These are some of the proven capabilities.
it ever occur to you that perhaps we may have worked alongside them, gaining experience in actually making an EW suit.
Not saying that the Israeli's gave us their trade secrets , but it was a joint development, much like many other projects. and we were part of its development every step of the way.
None the less both these projects fail to suffer the same type of criticism.
The Kaveri mk-1 may not see action on the Tejas-mk1 due to what ever reason, but the engine itself has numerous applications outside of the Tejas as well, that means the engine is nearing completion .
and the kaveri program still has not come to an end.
They are making a Kaveri mk-2 with even more thrust
Explain to me why this time in 2010 they believe DRDO capable for meeting the requirements. IAF also working much closer with their R&D partners this time around. To day at least IAF knows , what has changed in the last 30 years. And they are are showing confidence. And correcting the mistakes of the LCA program , which included the IAF 's on lack of support at points.
that statement alone will tell you , its not all about our achievements, but also about what we have not been able to achieve as of yet.
We did not make our own MMR to work as preferred. But we made a hybrid with Israeli systems. But it it still belongs to us , and gives us our own radar.
We could not make an engine which fully meets the latest IAF requirements but we made one that meets the 1996 requirements.
And even that does not mean the end, we ill be continually trying to improve on it , trying to develop better and more sophisticated systems.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In closing , i am not saying that there were not governmental deficiency's with the LCA program , there were tonnes but they exist every where in all nations. And if that is your concern then i am afraid those deficiency's can't be solved so quickly or easily and we cant keep our defense needs waiting for them to get fixed. we have to go ahead and fix them at the same time.
Capabilities wise , if we don't have it we will build them. its as simple as that. India has reached a point where it both has the capability and the money to peruse, Building and gaining new capability.
For a successful example take a look at India's space program.
in the 70's
This was done in under 40 years.
Now how can you tell me it is impossible for DRDO/HAL to build a stealth fighter , despite their partnership on the T-50 program.
P.S - I know its a big read , and am sorry. but if you cant be bothered reading the whole thing please don't bother replying at all
For starers try to forget everything Time of India is saying , all they have done is criticizes every aspect of it , unecessarliy , just because they have retrospective point of view does not mean , you don't consider the ground realties of the time
,
Even with the delays it has not been 30 years yet. all things considered its just been a little over 21 years since , since development of the Tejas aircraft started.
Key words in thta statement is "LCA programme" .
At this time , the only thing that was initiated was the plan of building a plane in India using its defense sector.
The time between 1983 and 1985, was spent with DRDO/HAL actually getting ready for the project. Making facilities , getiing infrastructure equipment e.t.c .
This was the first time something like this had been attempted in India and a a lot of infrastructure had to be built up from the ground
This is because all they had at this point was the program goal
to develop a 4th generation fighter aircraft. And the IAF did not even submit its requirements until the end of 1985.
So that's about it . they did not even have the project definition until 1988.
Well the remainder of the decade was spent, the development of the KAveri engine also started a bit before the Tejas which started in 1993.
And as you remember the near economic collapse and subsequent crunch of the early 1990's and late 80's there was nmot much funding to go around .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas_timeline
if your interested in getting to know the proper time line for the Tejas.
You clearly are criticizing our scientists here, contrary to all your statement to ppgj .
And i have to disagree with you, the level of funding , manpower and technical capabilities that exist in the nation right now has risen exponentially. You are selling us shot on this.
Tejas is a legacy project , its gone on for too long , thats part of the problem in our attempts to keep up with creeping requirements , we have not just developed one system but multiple systems , just building on one another in development it self.
That is the kind of capability that exists right now, and with some of the Tejas development coming to a close after 2013 , we need to focus on using the expertise we have gained on other projects.
And that is what we are doing right now with the AMCA , planning the next step, AMCA is still in the very preliminary stages,
For perspective its still between 1983-1986 phase of the LCA program. as the requirements are finalized we will see a technology and infrastructure build up .
As i pointed our you did criticizes our scientists.
How else will they get funding.
Please understand , when you build a car you don't build the first car ever maid and then improve on them( India never made a 1st and 2nd gen engines). You just build the modern model. And when you have to make your first car of that type its going to be a challenge , compared to making your second or even third
HAl MArrut used every manner of foreign equipment. even a foreign designer, the aircraft was underpowered and over produced. To put it in perspective it was our JF-17 .
When Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) set out to make the GTX-35VS Kaveri Engine .
These were their only accomplishments before then.
The last one is the most significant, but they had to build the infrastructure from ground up to make an actual combat engine.
And to this day India still lacks a high altitude testing facility , so all out engines are sent to Russia for high altitude testing testing .
But thats exactly what happened.
After years of neglect in out own indigenous defense sector, elements inside our government and gave our people their biggest challenge.(keep in mind India had only recently detonated her first nuclear device in 1976 , effectively silencing Pakistan and its arms' race with us, we could divert resource from what was then our meager defense budget from imports to Indigenous development)
it took them nearly 7 years of preparation between 1983 and 1991 . When the aircraft design was finalized and ready for development
I agree with you , we are not masters ppgj jumper the gun with this statement, but we certainly are not the same rookies that attempted such an ambitious plan in the first place. Our agency;s have gained tremendous experience and technical know how.
Both in their set backs and their achievements.
over 1200 test flights, it may not be seeing combat , but its not as if it's brand new prototype either.
It still is the worlds lightest fighter aircraft built with a unique carbon composite airframe. Designed to be built in 2/3 the time of a regular aircraft.
Featuring advanced negative RSS and its highly complex FCL and FBL systems. With 0 crashes.
It also clocked a speed of mach 1.2 when flying a little over sea level
These are some of the proven capabilities.
just because we worked with a foreign partner you assumed all we did is hand them the pen and paper and wait for them to finish.
it ever occur to you that perhaps we may have worked alongside them, gaining experience in actually making an EW suit.
Not saying that the Israeli's gave us their trade secrets , but it was a joint development, much like many other projects. and we were part of its development every step of the way.
I have yet to see an indigenous engine made by SAAB for the Grihpen or one made by China for the J-10 .
None the less both these projects fail to suffer the same type of criticism.
The Kaveri mk-1 may not see action on the Tejas-mk1 due to what ever reason, but the engine itself has numerous applications outside of the Tejas as well, that means the engine is nearing completion .
and the kaveri program still has not come to an end.
They are making a Kaveri mk-2 with even more thrust
The IAF said the same exact thins in 1983 , when it was suggested that India make her own plane.
Explain to me why this time in 2010 they believe DRDO capable for meeting the requirements. IAF also working much closer with their R&D partners this time around. To day at least IAF knows , what has changed in the last 30 years. And they are are showing confidence. And correcting the mistakes of the LCA program , which included the IAF 's on lack of support at points.
that statement alone will tell you , its not all about our achievements, but also about what we have not been able to achieve as of yet.
We did not make our own MMR to work as preferred. But we made a hybrid with Israeli systems. But it it still belongs to us , and gives us our own radar.
We could not make an engine which fully meets the latest IAF requirements but we made one that meets the 1996 requirements.
And even that does not mean the end, we ill be continually trying to improve on it , trying to develop better and more sophisticated systems.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In closing , i am not saying that there were not governmental deficiency's with the LCA program , there were tonnes but they exist every where in all nations. And if that is your concern then i am afraid those deficiency's can't be solved so quickly or easily and we cant keep our defense needs waiting for them to get fixed. we have to go ahead and fix them at the same time.
Capabilities wise , if we don't have it we will build them. its as simple as that. India has reached a point where it both has the capability and the money to peruse, Building and gaining new capability.
For a successful example take a look at India's space program.
in the 70's
This was done in under 40 years.
Now how can you tell me it is impossible for DRDO/HAL to build a stealth fighter , despite their partnership on the T-50 program.
P.S - I know its a big read , and am sorry. but if you cant be bothered reading the whole thing please don't bother replying at all
Last edited by a moderator:
ppgj
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it only started in 1993 when sanction was given.
http://www.drdo.org/light.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE3-5/wollen.html
because you wrongly said 30-40 years as against less than 20 years counting today.
where did i say you are blaming?? on the other hand you were the one saying the designers for a supposed 30-40 years delay which is not true.
LCA mark 2 as it stands now is just an addition of a high thrust engine than the one it sports now which means minor changes not extensive ones. which means it is just a matter of choosing the engine - between EJ200 or F-414. my own guess here is - they (IAF) is waiting for the MMRCA trial to get over. so in case they select SH or Eurofighter, the same engine will be put in Mark 2 LCA which gives them a logistical and a financial advantage in the price bargain. this even before the real winner is announced may be many months from now because IAF will have all the data at hand.
though there is heresay on a bigger wing redesign - nothing official on this. IMO considering the time and squadron constraints, IAF will not get into wing redesign etc..
LCA is a reality!!! it is pretty much done with IOC. post induction FOC kicks in with IAF testing various missiles as i mentioned in my last post.
beating mirages or mig 29's are also not unfounded. this stems from the fact that LCA derives its strength from a low RCS aircraft design by virtue of its size and composite nature of its build and superior aero dynamics which have been validated. why don't you go thro' this -
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/downloads/Tejas-Radiance.pdf
and find out for yourself.
i am not saying Mig 29's are inferior. they are certainly very agile and have served india well. but they suffer from high RCS. besides they are old designs with metal body. they will get better with the upgrades but there is a limit beyond which they have to be retired.
HF-Marut was a fine aircraft by design. it was underpowered though. if IAF had supported it from the start it would have been a different story. they set their eyes on jaguar.
turbofans are not easy to build. agreed. but they are trying their best and have come up with one. agreed it does not give enough thrust but does it mean they will stop at that? research will continue and with a joint venture now, it can well be a reality by the time MCA starts.
even Gripen does not have its own engine with Sweden having had experience in the past of designing aircrafts like Viggen. does it mean SAAB is not worthy?
agree on the MOD bit. but there are going to be hiccups/failures down the road in any project. we can't succeed in everything at once. some components take more time some less depending on the nature of the system. who dreamt india could build LCA 15 years back but it is reality now. here again apart from MOD, the armed forces need to do their bit in support.
what else is the reality of LCA which already has clocked more than 1330 flights and pretty much done with IOC. is it not mastering? one saw wind tunnel model of MCA which will be the basis for the program MCA.
every project has a looong road. drdo has developed lot of systems associated with EW.
R118 is the latest RWR which fuses data from all threat warning receivers including radar/missiles/laser on to the MFD. this is supposedly in production and on MIG 27's.
RWJ is the radar warner jammer.
Mayawi is a joint india - israeli collaboration.
since all the above are classified you can only take a look at the wiki page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenc...ent_Organisation#EW_systems_for_the_Air_Force
siva pod (HADF) which comes handy in SEAD missions.
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...49Wopx&sig=AHIEtbQqksyTVVXUcR1_oAnb0REa5iN7dg
this is already on SU 30MKI's.
stealth is a mix of shaping, internal weapons bay and RAM.
please read up darin 2 upgrade here - http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...W09fBM&sig=AHIEtbTHpfdlFjs8ogsPuCEtlEX2z30JYw
it talks about RAM tiles!! ofc IAF will not talk about these for obvious reasons. as for shaping and internal weapons bay, india will have experience to bank on the virtue of working on FGFA.
also of interest - this is wrt Shaurya missile.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2526/stories/20090102252609400.htm
india uses RAM coats on its missiles to reduce RCS. you can read up on this by googling.
also very old article which in the past i have posted. do read.
http://www.indianexpress.com/old/ie/daily/19980101/00150614.html
LCA is considered 4 to 4+ generation by today's standards. it is obvious one wants to hit next gen which is 5th. though in essence i agree with you for a self assessment, i also feel india today is way different than it was some years back. DRDO feels confident with experience to boot now. all i say is they need to be encouraged.
this is an era of joint efforts. simply because of the cost of development. even if india wants F-16's with a better technology than it already sports like engine or a radar upgrade you will have to fund it like the UAE did.
hence if there are joint efforts in certain systems that should not be considered as a negative. important thing is we build as many critical tech as we can and get it from outside where it does not economicaly makes sense or we are fully capable in that.
nrj
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Please can we get back on topic of NGFA? LCA argument saga can continue forever...
Now it is clear that NGFA be highly stealth as requirement of IAF. Apart from the modern light composites, what could be a major contributor to Stealth of NGFA?
Will the new "SKIN" being employed on just ordered MKI make any contribution on NGFA? MKI Skin experience will mature in next few years after which NGFA can benefit from it.
Its early but I am having strong feeling that Internal bay, LO modifications in MKI, Bramhos integration of MKI, Twin engine operation will benefit rather assist the NGFA development..
It remains to be seen IAF demands single seater or double pilot configuration. I believe IAF as specified it in ASR but its not released since project is not yet officially announced & will be public once money sanctioned by GOI.....
Now it is clear that NGFA be highly stealth as requirement of IAF. Apart from the modern light composites, what could be a major contributor to Stealth of NGFA?
Will the new "SKIN" being employed on just ordered MKI make any contribution on NGFA? MKI Skin experience will mature in next few years after which NGFA can benefit from it.
Its early but I am having strong feeling that Internal bay, LO modifications in MKI, Bramhos integration of MKI, Twin engine operation will benefit rather assist the NGFA development..
It remains to be seen IAF demands single seater or double pilot configuration. I believe IAF as specified it in ASR but its not released since project is not yet officially announced & will be public once money sanctioned by GOI.....
thakur_ritesh
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from here on any further post discussing LCA gets deleted, so best not to make a post on it. there is separate thread for it take it there.
ppgj
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request mods to allow this post on this thread. or all LCA related posts may please be moved to the LCA thread. thanks.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/downloads/Tejas-Radiance.pdf
at the same time Mirage 2000's are my favourites too.
how much time it took the french to come up with RDY 2 radar.
my intention here is not to pinpoint delays or incapabilities of the french rather the compexity of building one.
as i said LCA is a reality which means what? if not mastering? yes, future projects will bring their own complexities which will be dealt with the experience gained so far from both LCA and other other projects planned.
tarang failed? how do you know? some one gave a link to you on that thread. our ELTA jammer was not used!! so even if tarang worked there was no counter to it.
IMO they have done very well with limited budgets and non cooperative armed forces (navy being an exception)
so let's wait.
besides the cruch india faced in the 80's and early 90's only added to the situation.
yes i do. reasons i have explained in my previous post. rafale architecture is not going to change its body though. i gave a link to him, a detailed article. you may go thro' it here -
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/downloads/Tejas-Radiance.pdf
at the same time Mirage 2000's are my favourites too.
so?? that does not come in the way for a future radar. even with so much experience where is your AESA radar on the rafale??
how much time it took the french to come up with RDY 2 radar.
my intention here is not to pinpoint delays or incapabilities of the french rather the compexity of building one.
friend, LCA's which are flying now are LSP series (limited series production) which will be part of the to be inducted and operational aircrafts in 2011.
as i said LCA is a reality which means what? if not mastering? yes, future projects will bring their own complexities which will be dealt with the experience gained so far from both LCA and other other projects planned.
i have alreaday answered that in the previous post.
tarang failed? how do you know? some one gave a link to you on that thread. our ELTA jammer was not used!! so even if tarang worked there was no counter to it.
because they did not have previous experience like the french/americans/russians. simple as that. they had to build everything from ground up in the last 30 yrs.
IMO they have done very well with limited budgets and non cooperative armed forces (navy being an exception)
http://www.business-standard.com/in...omes-alive-will-power-indian-fighters/379333/
so let's wait.
as i said with tiny budgets and hardly helpful cooperation (navy being an exception and of late IAF too) also adds to the delays. frequent changing of specs shifts the time line too. however i am not saying DRDO is all clean. they too have faltered at times. but comparing their successes vs their failures, i say they have done very well.
besides the cruch india faced in the 80's and early 90's only added to the situation.
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If you are going to talk about the speculative development of AMCA, I don't see how you can avoid a discussion about LCA. The process of it is existentially linked.
Do I need to read and article about a fighter whose capabilities only exist on paper compared to a combat proven workhorse? I think not...
So... ADA has failed to make an MMR. You can't skip a step and go to AESA if you don't know how to make a multi-mode PESA.
Our AESA is in full scale production with 60 units ordered, where is yours?
Lets see, RDI started production in 1987 and ended 1996. RDY-2 started production in 1997 and fielded in 1999. Hard to say the exact dates of development but it looks like 3 years, maybe four. The M2000 family of radars share many features but RDY-2 was a major leap forward from the previous classes thanks to the improved architecture of the Rafale MPDU. It wasn't hard making RDY-2 when we were making the superior RBE2 in conjunction.
There weren't many delays or incapabilities. The programme went smoothly and evolved many times to update a good solid fighter. It isn't so hard for France to build the latest standard in avionics, Thales makes world class systems the envy of the world. It can do so because it has built the foundation as one of the world's leading defence companies. It isn't run by bureaucrats that place inefficient management and isn't held accountable, it is a leading global competitor accountable to its shareholders.
2011 they will be flying with Elta MMRs, not Indian.
But you aren't dealing with any of the problems. When you screw up your engines you call in Snecma. When you screw up your radar you call Elta. If you can't solve your problems without outsourcing, you won't ever develop the core competencies.
Yes, Tarang Mk2 failed. When you can't escape even one missile, you know it failed. There are more ways to defeat obsolete Russian SAMs than a jammer.
HAL has been in existence since 1940... what is your excuse?
Should we feel bad about lack of money when GoI doesn't spend billions of dollars allocated in the defence budget? Too busy filling babus pockets? I don't know...
Early 2010 has come and gone, we are now entering mid-year.
I can make a list of their failures a mile long, please show me their success.
So is India reliant on foreign technologies that they can't accomplish anything under sanction? That is not what you want to hear for the case of indigenisation.
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What is the purpose of having a separate thread. Shall we merge this with LCA thread then ? You did this in MRCA thread , discussed MKI and Red flag , we moved them to the respective thread. If Ppgi and others can follow why can't you . If you take this thread as speculative then every thread will be in some way or the other. LCA's design has been frozen and its engine development has been separated from its program and it radar is ready to fly . So let us discuss how the LCA experience can be carried forward coupled with the development of new technologies .
Originally Posted by ppgj
request mods to allow this post on this thread. or all LCA related posts may please be moved to the LCA thread. thanks.
If you are going to talk about the speculative development of AMCA, I don't see how you can avoid a discussion about LCA. The process of it is existentially linked.
And no discussion further on the scope of the thread. I will just delete any Off Topic without any warning.
EagleOne
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The Stealth In India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft
The official CAD images above, from the Advanced Projects & Technologies (AP&T) directorate of India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) provide further perspective on the low-observable design elements that are known to be going into India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), known for a while now to be a stealth aircraft concept. Serpentine air intakes (with minimum flow distortion and robust pressure recovery) and internal weapons bays, depicted in the images above, are some of the most critical nose-on low observability design elements going into the programme.
As part of the multidisciplinary design optimization (MDO) currently on for the AMCA -- a wind tunnel model of which was first publicly displayed at AeroIndia 2009 -- that design-based stealth features will include further optimized airframe shaping, edge matching, body conforming antennae and a low IR signature through nozzle design, engine bay cooling and work on reduced exhaust temperature. RAMs, RAPs, special coatings for polycarbonate canopy and precision manufacturing will all be part of the effort to make the AMCA India's first stealth airplane.
With aerodynamic design optimisation near complete, the AMCA's broad specifications are nearly final. The aicraft will have an all up weight of 16-18 tons with a combat ceiling of 15-km, max speed of 1.8-Mach at 11-km.
article by shiv LIVEFIST
The official CAD images above, from the Advanced Projects & Technologies (AP&T) directorate of India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) provide further perspective on the low-observable design elements that are known to be going into India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), known for a while now to be a stealth aircraft concept. Serpentine air intakes (with minimum flow distortion and robust pressure recovery) and internal weapons bays, depicted in the images above, are some of the most critical nose-on low observability design elements going into the programme.
As part of the multidisciplinary design optimization (MDO) currently on for the AMCA -- a wind tunnel model of which was first publicly displayed at AeroIndia 2009 -- that design-based stealth features will include further optimized airframe shaping, edge matching, body conforming antennae and a low IR signature through nozzle design, engine bay cooling and work on reduced exhaust temperature. RAMs, RAPs, special coatings for polycarbonate canopy and precision manufacturing will all be part of the effort to make the AMCA India's first stealth airplane.
With aerodynamic design optimisation near complete, the AMCA's broad specifications are nearly final. The aicraft will have an all up weight of 16-18 tons with a combat ceiling of 15-km, max speed of 1.8-Mach at 11-km.
article by shiv LIVEFIST
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EagleOne
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what focus u are talking about it about to get IOC
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what has india being doing for the last 25 years? it got the milk teeth, learned to walk,talk and then run in military aviation.
Neil
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dude...m nt at al criticizing r LCA programme in any way...its jus gr8 tht we cme out with such programme bt still a stealthy 1 is like to much to ask 4 from r scientist
Neil
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it gttin IOC...very true bt is still nt a fighter whch INDIAN AIR FORCE cn rely on and say r skies r safe[look at the numbers they r buying]
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thakur_ritesh
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Neilay,
do not use sms lingo on DFI, we as a forum take offence to it and find it demeaning to the english language. please write complete, proper english words.
do not use sms lingo on DFI, we as a forum take offence to it and find it demeaning to the english language. please write complete, proper english words.
Neil
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SORRY SIR....as i am new to the forum i might have missed that...i deeply regret my wrong doing and will certainly obliged by the forums rules and regulation under any circumstances.Again i am deeply SORRY ....
