AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Tshering22]

People care more about timelines than the technology it brings :/
The amca would be beast whenever it matures fully.

Timelines are equally important my friend. We cannot have a 5.5th gen (earlier it was 5th gen) fighter when China is flying an Extreme Deep Invader EDI jet (7th generation jet from movie Stealth). And our history shows that we have a tendency to get things delayed. So naturally the primary concern is timelines since none of us know the specifications that AMCA will bring on the table (being secret and all).

 

[SavageKing456]

Timelines are equally important my friend. We cannot have a 5.5th gen (earlier it was 5th gen) fighter when China is flying an Extreme Deep Invader EDI jet (7th generation jet from movie Stealth). And our history shows that we have a tendency to get things delayed. So naturally the primary concern is timelines since none of us know the specifications that AMCA will bring on the table (being secret and all).

I mean based on one interview which is not even giving proper information you will decide that amca is delayed or whatever?

 

[Tshering22]

I mean based on one interview which is not even giving proper information you will decide that amca is delayed or whatever?

No. Based on most tactical platform development timelines in the last 30 years, my apprehension is that it might get delayed. And as you know, we are not in a geopolitical situation to wait. This is no longer the 90s and till Xinnie rules, we need to tighten our belts.

 

[SavageKing456]

No. Based on most tactical platform development timelines in the last 30 years, my apprehension is that it might get delayed. And as you know, we are not in a geopolitical situation to wait. This is no longer the 90s and till Xinnie rules, we need to tighten our belts.

Previous trackrecord does not always tell you the future.
Those times we had different situation and this time it's different.
From here it can be delayed or it can come earlier too,you can only speculate

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

This might be it.

View attachment 119808

looks like F-22's engine bleed-air heat exchanger vent. In F-18E/F also there are vents for ECS (Environmental Control System) exhaust. ECS includes things like heat exchangers, HVAC, APU, etc. An example of bleed-air heat exchanger can be seen here (http://www.nasco.co.jp/cms/mark/pdf/AMETEK_HT/Bleed_Air_HX.pdf).
But these models could be notional of initial protoypes, not final FOC jet, just like YF-22 & X-35 had noticable differences with F-22/35.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Did anyone find out what's the thing poking out between vertical stabilisers ?

looks like shroud to hide inlet & exhaust vents similar to F-22's engine bleed-air heat exchanger vent. In F-18E/F also there are vents for ECS (Environmental Control System). ECS includes things like heat exchangers, HVAC, APU, etc. An example of bleed-air heat exchanger can be seen here (http://www.nasco.co.jp/cms/mark/pdf/AMETEK_HT/Bleed_Air_HX.pdf).
But these models could be notional of initial protoypes, not final FOC jet, just like YF-22 & X-35 had noticable differences with F-22/35.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

It is good & logical to have 2 IRSTs to cover upper & lower hemispheres.

F-16 ES (Enhanced Strategic) prototype was also tested with similar system of 2 IRSTs.

F-16U also had similar arrangement

There was a videogame in late 1990s named "DiD's F-22 Air Dominance Fighter" & follow-on called "F-22 Total Air War". They showed a fictious future upgraded block of F-22 which had 1 nose mounted IRST & 2 belly mounted IRSTs/EOTSs/LANTIRN. But this version of F-22 never manifested due to stealth concerns & it was primarily Air Dominance Fighter. Lockheed Martin was already working with X-35/F-35 having EOTS because of which F-35 is less stealthier than F-22.

Hence the optical sensors must have stealthy covers like F-35 EOTS.

Future variants of Su-57 may also have such stealthy covers on nose IRST

So the turret-ball design is unacceptable & needs to be replaced by such stealthy covers.

The external pod is also OBSOLETE & UNACCEPTABLE if AMCA needs to be ADVANCED jet.

There is 1 more thing required - DIRCM, like on Su-57, very important.

But these positions have been already occupied by IRST/EOTS in AMCA. So other positions for DIRCM can be explored like wing roots, like in F-16 AFTI

 

[SARTHAK]

dircm are not so effectove for jets(source hvt)

 

[SARTHAK]

i personally think indian navy should invest heavily in tedbf because its something between mwf and amca if that comes till 2026 even iaf might buy some sqdns with some modifications, one more thing i got to know from the guy who took ddr interview(aero 2021) was tedbf with have semi reccessed bays

 

[IndianHawk]

Timelines are equally important my friend. We cannot have a 5.5th gen (earlier it was 5th gen) fighter when China is flying an Extreme Deep Invader EDI jet (7th generation jet from movie Stealth). And our history shows that we have a tendency to get things delayed. So naturally the primary concern is timelines since none of us know the specifications that AMCA will bring on the table (being secret and all).

A proper jets development cycle takes about 20 years from conceptualization to serial production . Than few more years for series production to be smooth.

So no 6-7 th gen aren't coming anytime soon. Chinese will have to test each of them for over 6-10 years just to be able to put for limited roles.

 

[MonaLazy]

i personally think indian navy should invest heavily in tedbf because its something between mwf and amca if that comes till 2026 even iaf might buy some sqdns with some modifications, one more thing i got to know from the guy who took ddr interview(aero 2021) was tedbf with have semi reccessed bays

If IAF throws it's weight behind ORCA (AF version of TEDBF) then how to justify 114x MRFA?

 

[Brood Father]

Not sure why people are surprised by 2035 timelines .This is expected . Any timelines before that would be ambitious and highly unlikely
2035 also gives MK2 breathing space or else there were nonsensical voices that "since MK2 and AMCA have same timelines then why invest in MK2"
Now MK2 becomes a necessity as it will bridge the gap between MK1A and AMCA and will make our MIC more mature and robust

This is actually a good news unless UNAF pressures GOI to get fifth gen fighters from shelf

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

dircm are not so effectove for jets(source hvt)

DIRCM is in regular production & implemented on military transport jets, helicopters. Even civil airlines also have option today. Our P-8i has it & others like C-17, C-130, Chinook, AH-64, etc may also have it in future. Our new presidential jet Air India One will be modified to have it as declared from beginning. Our Arjun MBT has been tested with ALWACS (VIRCM + ELAWS).

For radar guided missiles,jammers need to be used.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

i personally think indian navy should invest heavily in tedbf because its something between mwf and amca if that comes till 2026 even iaf might buy some sqdns with some modifications, one more thing i got to know from the guy who took ddr interview(aero 2021) was tedbf with have semi reccessed bays

There is a separate thread for these jets, but in my opinion, to save cost TEDBF/ORCA/MWF/MRFA/MRCA/Tejas MK2, all these are generic acronyms & hence need to be same airframe, like F-18, Rafale have their Air Force & Naval variants, rather than inflated LCA based design. The new jet can simply be called Tejas MK2-A & MK2-N (AF & Naval) or Tejas-2 & Naval Tejas-2.
Actually, Naval AMCA also needs to be there. Navy also needs stealth jets.

 

[SARTHAK]

If IAF throws it's weight behind ORCA (AF version of TEDBF) then how to justify 114x MRFA?

mrfa is a pipe dream ,we will end up with 36 more rafales or even 36 rafales + 24 su 57 and then wait for amca

 

[Tshering22]

A proper jets development cycle takes about 20 years from conceptualization to serial production . Than few more years for series production to be smooth.

So no 6-7 th gen aren't coming anytime soon. Chinese will have to test each of them for over 6-10 years just to be able to put for limited roles.

6-7th generation jets may not be coming soon, but if we give a wide margin to HAL, then expect AMCA somewhere around 2045-50. Without time-bound deadlines, they will slip just like any of us do.

As for China, the less we say the better. While jokes are good now and then about them copying/stealing, etc. they have a robust aerospace industry today. This is substantiated since the time it started churning out J-10s in 2002. Even before that they did make fighter jets that were not as good as Western jets but became the learning curve. Today they have Y-20, J-10, J-16, J-20, J-35, L-15, and with projects like H-20 and several other long-range drones with over 4 decades of proper aerospace experience.

Given their focus on militarization, their wallet, & their ability to get things done exponentially faster than any democratic nation, you should be aware of writing such a sweeping statement.

Our current external threat is China and we have to prepare according to that. Pakistan has long departed this scenario.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

A proper jets development cycle takes about 20 years from conceptualization to serial production . Than few more years for series production to be smooth.

So no 6-7 th gen aren't coming anytime soon. Chinese will have to test each of them for over 6-10 years just to be able to put for limited roles.

Production technology has improved a lot. Robotic-arm & other automations are available. Supercomputing power has improved a lot for CFD analysis. Earlier in West 20 years were required but now i think that will & should reduce. 1 reason why things are not rushed is to avoid another cold/proxy war or hitech arms race.
If small countries like Israel, France, Korea, Japan, etc can take initiatives & also lead in certain product domains then so can we. 21st century engineering & leadership need to be rapid, radical & toe-to-toe with technology You never know in next few decades & centuries which country's regime change will suddenly become hostile to us.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

There is a separate thread for these jets, but in my opinion, to save cost TEDBF/ORCA/MWF/MRFA/MRCA/Tejas MK2, all these are generic acronyms & hence need to be same airframe, like F-18, Rafale have their Air Force & Naval variants, rather than inflated LCA based design. The new jet can simply be called Tejas MK2-A & MK2-N (AF & Naval) or Tejas-2 & Naval Tejas-2.
Actually, Naval AMCA also needs to be there. Navy also needs stealth jets.
View attachment 126204

Lol you seem sadly misinformed. Apart from tejas mk2, none are LCA based designs. Tedbf has 2 engines and frontal stealth etc, with diff design too. Amca is a full on stealth fighter. And IN has already expressed interest for N-AMCA. The whole hullabaloo about naval jet is due to navy wanting a dual engine fighter, due to higher payload capacity (absent on n-lca, it was too underpowered).

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Production technology has improved a lot. Robotic-arm & other automations are available. Supercomputing power has improved a lot for CFD analysis. Earlier in West 20 years were required but now i think that will & should reduce. 1 reason why things are not rushed is to avoid another cold/proxy war or hitech arms race.
If small countries like Israel, France, Korea, Japan, etc can take initiatives & also lead in certain product domains then so can we. 21st century engineering & leadership need to be rapid, radical & toe-to-toe with technology You never know in next few decades & centuries which country's regime change will suddenly become hostile to us.

Still, design takes time. These projects may be ready by 2030-2035- they may also not. Only time will tell. AMCA started earlier, as MCA.Some things will have carried over so hopefully AMCA will roll out in time

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Lol you seem sadly misinformed. Apart from tejas mk2, none are LCA based designs. Tedbf has 2 engines and frontal stealth etc, with diff design too. Amca is a full on stealth fighter. And IN has already expressed interest for N-AMCA. The whole hullabaloo about naval jet is due to navy wanting a dual engine fighter, due to higher payload capacity (absent on n-lca, it was too underpowered).

I'm common citizen IT engineer, not defence journalist, hence i comment only on technology, not the procurement dealings, politics, etc of it. And i'm not misinformed on technical part.
Although i do watch many things like talk shows like "Security Scan"on RajyaSabhaTV & SansadTV channels, which show top journalists & retired generals, air chief marshals, admirals, etc, but I don't have time to monitor each & every discussion, persuading talks, disagreements b/w armed forces, governments, OEMs, etc.
Now, TEJAS which is a naming nomenclature, can be treated as just another word for SERIES. Currently LCA is nown as TEJAS but there was MCA preliminaly design also from beginning, which can be called MK2. Hence i mentioned that all acronyms used (TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA/MWF/MRCA/MRFA/blah-blah-blah) for a medium jet need to be same airframe to save cost for Navy & Air-Force.
Due to political scams we made massive delays with LCA, i hope same won't repeat for MCA/MWF/MRFA/MRCA/AMCA/blah-blah-blah, whatever people wan't to call it.