AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Bhartiya Sainik]

??

Please point out any aircraft program run by any country in the whole world that you think has lived up to your great expectations.

I already said multiple times that F-18 has done well in 4th gen category with common airframe for Navy & USAF.

For context, read on..

How the F-35 Got to Be Such a Mess

The story of the F-35, and what went wrong to put the Joint Strike Fighter so far over budget and behind schedule.

www.popularmechanics.com

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.. am I'm not even adding the concurrent engineering disaster (a full $1.7B)! Just the design compromises, because while the program eventually overcame the process deficiencies, design compromises have stuck to this day.

Why do you think IAF (Mk2 & AMCA) and IN (TEDBF) are going their own separate ways after pulling the common platform nonsense with LCA & N-LCA?

So that's clearly bcoz of Marines demanding VTOL jet, that was the quicksand. We don't have that requirement.
Although they designed a revolutionary shaft connected lift-fan but that consumes lots of space in which additional fuel & weapons could have come with a common fuselage. The Naval variant requires slightly larger wings & stronger landing gears.
Before VTOL F-35 they had F-18 variants & proved their common airframe economy. We are in that situation & advantage.
The problem in our case is TEDBF & its AF version ORCA both r delta-canard but from models it appears that TEDBF is similar to Rafale & ORCA is similar to LCA. 1 is twin engine, other is single engine. For how long OBSOLETE design of LCA will be DRAGGED??? Air Force must stop this immediately.
And again repeating myself, there are tooooooo many generic acronyms - MWF/MCA/MRCA/MRFA/AMCA/blah-blah-blah even if all are medium category. Unique hotch-poch, world must be laughing on us.
Right from beginning AMCA should have been developed in both AF & Navy versions. Now we are in a ditch, again, after LCA, can't spit, can't swallow.
If Rafale can have same airframe for Navy & AF then TEDBF has similar airframe, it can also have.
And current design of AMCA is similar to F-35 & hence can be modified for Navy too.
Meanwhile LCA MK1A production can continue with future enhancements but LCA Mk2 or its enlarged canard model being called Tejas MK2 would be again a liability in long run.
TEDBF & its common airfram ORCA can be called TEJAS MK2, OR if Naval AMCA is developed then it can be named TEJAS MK2.
OR if our countrys economy & budget can afford both TEDBF & AMCA designs then fine but i'm not in favor of enlarged LCA

 

[IndianHawk]

J-10 was an Israeli tech that they borrowed, fair enough. But what about all the subsequent projects that I have written above?



I would love to be proven wrong about my apprehensions here, bhai sahab. Believe me, nothing would make me happier than being proven wrong and seeing AMCA fly in IAF and IN colours.



War does not see who is right and who is more talented - it only shows who is left. Bottomline is if China gets completely blocked in terms of defence, they have domestic platforms to use and fight with, while we are still reliant on external elements that can cause political problems now that we are an ascending power.

Yes, making jets is not like making puchkas.

But all I am saying is that at the end of the day, China won't be waiting on us and say, "hey look! You're making a new design from scratch with your talent! Let's give you another 15 years to finish your jet and then we will try to invade. Let's make this fair game, okay?"

Other than j20 and j35 all other chinese jets are copy paste.

And chinese are not independent. They are too heavily dependent on russian engines and systems. Their own engines are still work in progress with inadequate torque and a very small engine life. They are no where battle ready.

India has chosen the path of collaboration over pushing ahead half baked products. Chinese did the same when they had access to Western technology . ( Look at their civilian jet engine programs). They only went fully indeginous when west cut them off and they are stuck with rather obsolete technology which hampers their military preparedness.

123 lca mk1/mk1a may show far more availablity / sorties than even 250 j10s . Because f414 is that ahead of j10s russian and chinese engines .

 

[MonaLazy]

I already said multiple times that F-18 has done well in 4th gen category with common airframe for Navy & USAF.

..& we all should believe you 'cause? Please stop pulling statements out of your posterior. Unless backed by sources, your utterances are merely opinion- not fact.

Do you know the all time total number of F-18s ever operated by USAF is exactly 0? It has a reputation as a bomb truck but is not very nimble, hence, did not find many AF customers- including USAF which gave it a pass. Also, unless you are living in the '90s the hornet/super hornet is well into its sunset years for new production.

Sample this..

Though more than 700 F/A-18 Hornets and Super Hornets are in operation today, only two foreign militaries have purchased the fighters — Australia and Kuwait. An intense discussion has erupted in the military circles on the future of the Super Hornets since the US Navy’s announcement last year that it would stop buying F/A-18E/F Super Hornets starting in FY22. This came after the 2019 budget release, in which the US Navy rolled out an ambitious plan to buy 110 Block III Super Hornets over the next five years.

F-18s have lost in open global competitions to Gripen in Brazil, to Rafale in India, & to F-35 in Denmark, Poland, UK, Switzerland & Canada (F35 vs Gripen now). How to make it any more obvious? If in service numbers and international customers mean anything to you - look at the stellar record of the F-16! Sadly no naval version, but surprise, surprise! The USN also operates F-16s. Please look it up.

Demise of the super hornet not exaggerated - external link

Navy Cuts Super Hornet Production to Develop Next-Generation Fighter - USNI News

THE PENTAGON – The Navy wants to truncate production of the legacy F/A-18E/F Super Hornet in favor of pumping money into accelerating the development of its long-gestating next-generation carrier-based fighter program, the service revealed in its Fiscal Year 2021 budget request. Next year’s...

news.usni.org

ZERO Buyers! Boeing ‘Hard Sells’ Its F/A-18 Super Hornets To Indian Navy; Global Customers Give It A ‘Royal Snub’

Is future of F/A-18 Super Hornet, one of the world's most lethal fighter jets hanging in balance as it is pitched to Indian Navy by Boeing?

eurasiantimes.com

Also, peering into the future both USN and USAF have their own NGAD programs- why should that be once they have discovered the F-35 way of doing things?

US Navy reveals more on plans for sixth generation fighter jet - Aerospace Manufacturing

The US Navy has revealed more information on its plans for a sixth generation fighter jet, commonly referred to as F/A-XX.

www.aero-mag.com

clearly bcoz of Marines demanding

They are a paying customer- can demand whatever they think helps them complete their assigned missions. Say no and say good bye to business.

MWF/MCA/MRCA/MRFA/AMCA/blah-blah-blah

One man's blah-blah is another's dream come true.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

..& we all should believe you 'cause? Please stop pulling statements out of your posterior. Unless backed by sources, your utterances are merely opinion- not fact.

Do you know the all time total number of F-18s ever operated by USAF is exactly 0? It has a reputation as a bomb truck but is not very nimble, hence, did not find many AF customers- including USAF which gave it a pass. Also, unless you are living in the '90s the hornet/super hornet is well into its sunset years for new production.

Sample this..



F-18s have lost in open global competitions to Gripen in Brazil, to Rafale in India, & to F-35 in Denmark, Poland, UK, Switzerland & Canada (F35 vs Gripen now). How to make it any more obvious?

View attachment 126309

Demise of the super hornet not exaggerated - external link

Navy Cuts Super Hornet Production to Develop Next-Generation Fighter - USNI News

THE PENTAGON – The Navy wants to truncate production of the legacy F/A-18E/F Super Hornet in favor of pumping money into accelerating the development of its long-gestating next-generation carrier-based fighter program, the service revealed in its Fiscal Year 2021 budget request. Next year’s...

news.usni.org

ZERO Buyers! Boeing ‘Hard Sells’ Its F/A-18 Super Hornets To Indian Navy; Global Customers Give It A ‘Royal Snub’

Is future of F/A-18 Super Hornet, one of the world's most lethal fighter jets hanging in balance as it is pitched to Indian Navy by Boeing?

eurasiantimes.com

Also, peering into the future both USN and USAF have their own NGAD programs- why should that be once they have discovered the F-35 way of doing things?

View attachment 126308

US Navy reveals more on plans for sixth generation fighter jet - Aerospace Manufacturing

The US Navy has revealed more information on its plans for a sixth generation fighter jet, commonly referred to as F/A-XX.

www.aero-mag.com

They are a paying customer- can demand whatever they think helps them complete their assigned missions. Say no and say good bye to business.



the fvck? One man's blah-blah is another's dream come true.

1) We are drifting away from forum topic of AMCA towards TEDBF/ORCA/MK2.
2) I don't expect anybody to believe me or agree with me. Everybody has their own opinions. We all are here just to discuss as enthusiasts unless there is a pilot or aeronautical engineer among us to teach us. You or someone likes LCA, no issues, i don't like it, that's all, simple. There is no need to mention someone's anterior, posterior, etc.
3) Whether a jet like F-18 or any jet can perform for multiple wings is 1 thing & will the wings choose it is another thing. USAF passed on F-18 to make way for F-22 ATF & F-35 JSF & newer blocks of F-15s & F-16s could supplement them. But AFs of Canada, Australia, Finland, Kuwait, Malaysia, Spain, Switzerland did purchase as per size of their country/airspace & budget allocations. Some countries operate both American & Russian jets. 2000+ A to F models were built, that's a good number. F-18 C/D were introduced in 1983/84 & retired in last 2 years, 4 decades of service. E/F were introduced in 2001, still active to supplement F-35, 2 decades & going on. So F-18 has definitely proved for both AF & Navy. Similarly if LCA was introduced in late 1990s or early 2000s then it would have been good. But as per today's standards it is obsolete airframe. we have to tolerate it now. Time will tell how many LCA exports will happen to which kind of countries.
4) We are in era of 5th gen jets. F-18 cannot be compared to better jets like F-35 at least. I don't know why u r comparing these. When u said that F-18 is facing sunset years, that itself means it can't win against F-35 & even Rafale perhaps. You asked me to give example of a jet which performed for both AF & Navy, i gave u 4th gen example. Why r u comparing it to 5th gen?
And which country chooses which jet depends on so many factors. We didn't choose Grippen bcoz of its American engine, also used in LCA until Kaveri is fully developed. What if USA invokes sanctions like CAATSA on us for buying S-400 or some other reason? These kind of political concerns have to be looked upon. Why LCA got delayed? Otherwise who knows we would be operating some Grippens by now.
5) Obviously USAF & USN having their NGAD programs bcoz they are leading the world in certain technologies. That's what i'm pointing that where are we??????????? Still with LCA, LOL!!!!! Wecouldn't develop Kaveri engine on time to field the LCA & then u wan't multiple production lines for multiple designs????
6) Marines are customers with big pocket, can ask whatever they want, YES, but do we have big pocket &/or requirement to ask for VTOL jet variant of LCA, TEDBF, AMCA, etc????? That's why TEDBF/ORCA/MK2 ideally needs to be same jet.
7) I don't have any issues if people want to dream of 10 different jets with synonymous acronyms. I already said If our economy can handle cost of multiple design productions then fine, but it doesn't appear so. There has to be mass orders to setup costly production lines otherwise there would be no need for import tenders like MMCRA 1.0, 2.0, etc.

 

[asaffronladoftherisingsun]

So now france part of Akhand BHARAT Confirmed

 

[MonaLazy]

F-18 has definitely proved for both AF & Navy.

Nope. Prove it or eat humble pie! USAF did not induct a single F-18. You may re-read my previous post to disabuse yourself of that misinformed opinion.

What did happen is that the F-16 was pitched against the F-18 (YF-17) and F-18 lost on performance. Back in that era, they had F-15 for A2A/A2G and F-16s for everything F-18s could do, but cost less to operate and later F-22 for air superiority.

LCA as per today's standards it is obsolete airframe. we have to tolerate it now.

Totally baseless libel. Would recommend you go through @hvtiaf & @hvtiaf_ timelines on twitter. Test pilot closely associated with Tejas' evolution. Wake up and smell the coffee!

4) We are in era of 5th gen jets. F-18 cannot be compared to better jets like F-35 at least.

F-35 so you can relate the NGAD programs disjoint-ness to F-35s jointness. There is definitely an evolution there from 5th gen to 6th gen programs. But you seem too blinded by prejudice to pick it up.

example of a jet which performed for both AF & Navy, i gave u 4th gen example.

& I'm telling you, your example is bunkum. The case you make doesn't hold water- and I'm backing mine with appropriate sources. Whereas you want us to believe what you believe, just because!

If our economy can handle cost of multiple

My suggestion to you would be to just pay your taxes on time- and let GoI figure out which programs they want to run.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

Good decision on Indo french engine JV and let it become fruitful. RR is a pioneer no doubt. But UK(USA) is too risky. Also don't expect any reasonable IP or ToT from UK/US. 6 squadrons of Tejas MK1, around 7 squadrons of Tejas MK2, 2 squadrons of AMCA mk1 all have US engines. That's nearly 275 fighters. France is much more reliable and has a long history of working with IAF. IMHO IAF itself will be the one who steered away from RR/GE to French.
And somebody int this forum above were saying to just stock some 100 F414 in case of expecting sanctions. Well friend that's not how fleet support and maintenance works. An engine has 1000s of parts among which many are replaced after x hours. We cannot replace an engine from stock if just 1 part from this 1000 reaches x hours or fails. What happens if the part on new engine reaches x hours. Scale it over a fleet of jets. Only possible way is to put the engine and aircraft in cold storage like Iranians did it with F 14 Tomcat. But this negates the whole purpose of owning a jet for a country like India with 2 hot neighbours and an IAF that clocks one of the highest annual flight hours in harsh weather conditions. Wet dreams. For a jet to run, it needs constant support from the engine OEM

 

[MonaLazy]

Good decision on Indo french engine JV and let it become fruitful. RR is a pioneer no doubt. But UK(USA) is too risky. Also don't expect any reasonable IP or ToT from UK/US.

France is also only marginally better. If US puts its foot down, France will withdraw from all engine collab with India. The fate of French Mistrals for Russia I alluded to earlier.

If there is no IP then how is this better than F414 and its future iterations? We are just paying for a black box.

just stock some 100 F414 in case of expecting sanctions. Well friend that's not how fleet support and maintenance works.

Didn't work the whole thing out- but you get the point. Create over capacity and pre-buy spares you need for the next 5 years in the quantities you need them + some wastage. What you are talking about is planned maintenance- it can be adequately planned for on the spares stocking side also. No all out war/skirmish will last more than a few days- we need to plan for that primarily. Swift Retreat was over and done with in a matter of minutes. Even Iran managed to keep their US planes flying for years when sanctioned- we are a lot more resourceful.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Nope. Prove it or eat humble pie! USAF did not induct a single F-18. You may re-read my previous post to disabuse yourself of that misinformed opinion.

What did happen is that the F-16 was pitched against the F-18 (YF-17) and F-18 lost on performance. Back in that era, they had F-15 for A2A/A2G and F-16s for everything F-18s could do, but cost less to operate and later F-22 for air superiority.



Totally baseless libel. Would recommend you go through @hvtiaf & @hvtiaf_ timelines on twitter. Test pilot closely associated with Tejas' evolution. Wake up and smell the coffee!



F-35 so you can relate the NGAD programs disjoint-ness to F-35s jointness. There is definitely an evolution there from 5th gen to 6th gen programs. But you seem too blinded by prejudice to pick it up.



& I'm telling you, your example is bunkum. The case you make doesn't hold water- and I'm backing mine with appropriate sources. Whereas you want us to believe what you believe, just because!



My suggestion to you would be to just pay your taxes on time- and let GoI figure out which programs they want to run.

My suggestion to u is Please stop abusing & harassing me. Where did isay USAF inducted F-18? I mentioned other countries.
U like LCA, good for u, no issues, i don't like it, period. Even twins may have separate likes/dislikes.
For me LCA is like Maruti-800, just change head-light, tail-light, dash board, seat cover & Voala! newmodel ready. U put in glass cockpit, HMDS, AESA, etc, i still don't like it bcoz i don't like light jets at all. In my opinion a fighter jet needs to be minimum medium weight category to have sufficient payload, range, power, agility, etc.
You think i'm not aware of 6th gen????
I don't need anybody to believe in me or agree with me. we all are enthusiasts with our likes/dislike/opinions, unless u r aeronautical engineer, test pilot or something.

 

[pipebomb]

I think iac1 lifts are 11m wide so technically you can fit amca or f-35(both b & c). AMCA can attain lower approach/stall speed necessary for ac through thrust vector without going for bigger wings & tail surfaces. Eurofighter first suggested this solution for a naval Variant.

But ins vikramaditya is limited by its jugad design.

 

[MonaLazy]

My suggestion to u is

If you are not taking any of my suggestions, then i feel no obligation to take yours.

Where did isay USAF inducted F-18?

If home country AF is not inducting a fighter, what does that tell you?

Even twins may have separate likes/dislikes.

Fair point. But before you abuse LCA- be ready to back yourself up with well known sources who confirm your view otherwise be prepared for reasonable probing (harrasment?) of your assertions.

For me LCA is like Maruti-800, just change head-light, tail-light, dash board, seat cover & Voala!

That's exactly what they do at MLU or even block versions. For ANY fighter. Once the platform is ready, then it is the systems on board that give it the edge- talking of sensors, processors, weapons, avionics etc.

In my opinion a fighter jet needs to be minimum medium weight category to have sufficient payload, range, power, agility, etc.

Why? Weight is an important but not over arching parameter- you examine the bird in totality to see what capability it brings to the table and deploy it where it's strengths outshine it's weakness.

we all are enthusiasts with our likes/dislike/opinions, unless u r aeronautical engineer, test pilot or something.

How can you be an enthusiast when you have no enthusiasm for our local projects? More like non-enthusiast.

The LCA story is continuously evolving- and you are stuck on the preface of the first edition written 30 years ago.

 

[Blank]

You all are getting happy too soon....

Though the defence minister did not specify about the engine and its use, people familiar with the development said the project will be focussed on the requirement for military helicopters that India plans to roll out in the next few years.

Leading French firm set to develop engine for military platform in India

NEW DELHI: A leading French defence major is set to produce an engine for a military platform in India as part of a joint venture with an Indian company under t

www.newindianexpress.com

 

[THESIS THORON]

You all are getting happy too soon....

Leading French firm set to develop engine for military platform in India

NEW DELHI: A leading French defence major is set to produce an engine for a military platform in India as part of a joint venture with an Indian company under t

www.newindianexpress.com

if this report comes true then it will be a big lol for all of us

 

[Vamsi]

You all are getting happy too soon....

Leading French firm set to develop engine for military platform in India

NEW DELHI: A leading French defence major is set to produce an engine for a military platform in India as part of a joint venture with an Indian company under t

www.newindianexpress.com

In place the report mentioned helos and in other place it mentioned Kaveri

 

[Concard]

Although we must be vary of US/UK sanctions in future, I have a feeling that situation might not arise again given the world has changed a lot in 20 years since Nuclear tests in 1998. America and West sanctioned Chinese after Tiananmen square. However it is unlikely they would have equipped Chinese with high tech military gear even Tiananmen would not have happened. We need to deepen our economy with USA, not just deepen in fact intertwine our economy with theirs. Once that happens sanctions will be impossibility. They are sanctioning Chinese companies even though their economies are intertwined. But that is because Chinese present a military threat to their interests. Otherwise what serious actions they have taken against Chinese with respect to so many transgressions?

The only time Americans might seriously consider sanctions is when we crack down on their rice bag conversions and start blowing up Churches which have mushroomed like thorns in our landscape. But if we do that gradually over time then they can only sulk about it. In the long term we need to go on our own. In the short term we need massive investment to improve our economy and once we are capable enough to build our own tech we need to decouple from them and put our currency forward as an alternative in international trade. This of course is a long term objective something like 50 years down the line if all stars align in our favor.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

We could always procure 100 F404s extra, as sanction buffer. They only need careful storage in a clean environment and periodic servicing and running.

Kind of like how you preventively maintain a car or a bike when it is going to be immobile for several months. The fact that they are not doing it must mean the threat of sanctions is not as real as it's made out to be.

Besides, France is firmly in the US camp- look at how they stalled delivery of the Mistrals to Russia under American pressure. So any Western bloc engine will be sanction prone till we master the know why and know how to create a whole family of engines from scratch- and retain 100% IP within the country.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/09/03/france-backs-off-sending-mistral-warship-to-russia-in-1-7-billion-deal/

France is not firmly in US camp, they are firmly in anti Russia camp. France is de facto EU leader, and EU is always worried abt threat of russian thrust into baltics.

 

[MonaLazy]

France is not firmly in US camp, they are firmly in anti Russia camp. France is de facto EU leader, and EU is always worried abt threat of russian thrust into baltics.

Then why did they agree to sell the Russians powerful helicopter carriers?

How France Almost Sold Russia Two Powerful Aircraft Carriers

And then Crimea was stolen away.

nationalinterest.org

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Then why did they agree to sell the Russians powerful helicopter carriers?

How France Almost Sold Russia Two Powerful Aircraft Carriers

And then Crimea was stolen away.

nationalinterest.org

At that time russia was lying low, They cancelled it when russia invaded crimea.

 

[MonaLazy]

At that time russia was lying low, They cancelled it when russia invaded crimea.

France will not halt Russian warship sale despite Ukraine crisis

One of the two French-built Mistral-class warships purchased by Russia got its first test run on Wednesday in western France. Despite the crisis in Crimea, Paris said it was not yet ready to scrap its…

www.france24.com

The cancellation was forced on the French. By the US.

Under who's pressure do you think a nuclear Baraccuda was never on offer to India- at least until yesterday?

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

My suggestion to u is Please stop abusing & harassing me. Where did isay USAF inducted F-18? I mentioned other countries.

Like this, right here?

I already said multiple times that F-18 has done well in 4th gen category with common airframe for Navy & USAF.

common airframe for Navy & USAF