AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Tshering22]

We could always procure 100 F404s extra, as sanction buffer. They only need careful storage in a clean environment and periodic servicing and running.

Kind of like how you preventively maintain a car or a bike when it is going to be immobile for several months. The fact that they are not doing it must mean the threat of sanctions is not as real as it's made out to be.

Besides, France is firmly in the US camp- look at how they stalled delivery of the Mistrals to Russia under American pressure. So any Western bloc engine will be sanction prone till we master the know why and know how to create a whole family of engines from scratch- and retain 100% IP within the country.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/09/03/france-backs-off-sending-mistral-warship-to-russia-in-1-7-billion-deal/

France was under severe pressure in 1998 when we were under sanctions and the US tried to put sanctions there as well. However, it remained the ONLY Western country to not bow down and supported us (the other 2 being Russia and Israel).

Comparing Russia to India in the context of French mindset is totally wrong.

When it comes to Russia, France also has some suspicions about their expansionism, meanwhile they know that India will never be expansionist beyond what we claim as our territory (POK + COL) and our current geography. They also know that we have 0 interest in taking over Bangladesh or Pakistan and won't be a threat.

You also need to factor in that the French do not want their IOR and Pacific territories under Chinese control. French Polynesia is pretty reachable from China and PLAN can really do a lot more than French forces there. same way for Mayotte and Réunion in IOR.

They know that we are the best bet against Chinese and will continue backing us even if the US goes against us.

Under who's pressure do you think a nuclear Baraccuda was never on offer to India- at least until yesterday?

My point exactly.

If they are offering us nuke subs now, they clearly are looking to create their own policy that means getting us on their side more than Uncle Sam. It is basically a "fuck you" to the Americans from Paris.

 

[MonaLazy]

France was under severe pressure in 1998 when we were under sanctions and the US tried to put sanctions there as well.

France is not the problem. US is. They were the problem in Russian Mistrals also. Who is to say what will offend the Americans tomorrow? May be another nuclear test or S-500.. who knows? & French aren't exactly immune to American pressure.

 

[Tshering22]

France is not the problem. US is. They were the problem in Russian Mistrals also. Who is to say what will offend the Americans tomorrow? May be another nuclear test or S-500.. who knows? & French aren't exactly immune to American pressure.

I beg to differ.

Look at this. France had already started moving away from the US long before AUKUS existed.

France to cut US-made components from its military products - 2018

French-US breakaway started right after Trumpy came to power & started throwing his weight around his allies. Macron the centrist is turning into Macron the Napoleon wannabe and his opponent Eric Zémmour is more like their version of Yogi Adityanath (though I don't know his dedication level) who only wants the same thing, only much faster than Macron.

At this point, US-France will maintain strong political ties, but it is not going to be the same any more. French politics has changed a lot since Sarkozy's time when he was trying to do a Tony Blair and make France USA's Lieutenant.

 

[Tshering22]

Look at this:

Leading French firm set to develop engine for military platform in India

Apparently, Ninda Turtle managed to convince Parly about it.

 

[MonaLazy]

I beg to differ.

Don't really follow French politics enough to comment. But here's a question- is it possible that India is more important to France than America?

France's Top Trading Partners 2023

France's top trading partners in 2023 by dollar amount & trade deficits or surpluses by country plus continent data

www.worldstopexports.com

 

[Tshering22]

Don't really follow French politics enough to comment. But here's a question- is it possible that India is more important to France than America?

France's Top Trading Partners 2023

France's top trading partners in 2023 by dollar amount & trade deficits or surpluses by country plus continent data

www.worldstopexports.com

You need to understand that these colonial era powers plan not for current but for the future. There's a reason why even the subservient puppet US-state of Germany is refusing to cancel out China completely. EU is seeing the direction of the winds. It is going to be eastwards in the future. France knows that it can benefit a lot from India. Maybe not directly by full exports, but through maintaining JVs, partnerships in hi-tech sector and maybe even cheaper third-party manufacturing.

While US-France trade is a lot right now, they are also wary of America's corporate-deep state nexus that would undermine them in the future. If the decoupling of US-made components from French products was a sign, Trump's treatment and now AUKUS has convinced the Europeans that they are on their own in the future.

I am not saying that France will always be 100% reliable, but it definitely has the precedent and a lot to gain from India in the next 20 years.

 

[FactsPlease]

You need to understand that these colonial era powers plan not for current but for the future. There's a reason why even the subservient puppet US-state of Germany is refusing to cancel out China completely. EU is seeing the direction of the winds. It is going to be eastwards in the future. France knows that it can benefit a lot from India. Maybe not directly by full exports, but through maintaining JVs, partnerships in hi-tech sector and maybe even cheaper third-party manufacturing.

While US-France trade is a lot right now, they are also wary of America's corporate-deep state nexus that would undermine them in the future. If the decoupling of US-made components from French products was a sign, Trump's treatment and now AUKUS has convinced the Europeans that they are on their own in the future.

I am not saying that France will always be 100% reliable, but it definitely has the precedent and a lot to gain from India in the next 20 years.

Totally agreed that "NOT 100% reliable" part. As short-sight or corruption seems always haunt France military export, esp sub deals.
If France had been pitching in so much, the P75 project won't see so much frustration during 2012~2015 period. I still remember back then the only news you can get reg P75 were bad news.
Moreover, AUKUS is NOT the only deal slashed on France face - Australia already repeated final warnings for delay and cost overrun before mid-2021. All France sub deals in that past 20 years had been arousing all kinds of scandal - murder in Malaysia deal (2006), Sofma money laundry in Pakistan (1995).
So NO, I won't be hailing France for its intention to give nuke sub (tech), at least not whole-heartly.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Like this, right here?

common airframe for Navy & USAF

Yes that was a typo mistake by me. LOL. What i meant was the airframe was pitched but rejected by USAF but was used by AF of other countries.

 

[Trololo]

The reliability of the GE404s and the engines which have already been procured in some numbers may be enough to keep the Tejas Mk1 and Mk1As flying for their original airframe life, but airframe life extensions may mean cannibalising existing ones or grounding in case of sanctions. Or a less likely scenario a revival of the Kaveri once knowledge from the newer engines is applied to these programmes if it’s not already been attempted right now(knowledge from AL31FP production , HTFE-25 etc.)

The point about airframe life extension is a very important topic you brought up. One of our defence industrial goals should be to ensure that these airframe life extension programs are not needed. The aircraft lives its service life, and then gets decommissioned. We should work towards this end. Life extension programs have cost us lives in the form of old MiGs and Jaguars. In fact, the MiG 29 UPGs should have been retired by 2010 since they are from the early 80s. Same with the Mirage 2000s. Of course the latter is a better built system so I expect it to have longer life. But that still doesn't change the point.

 

[Trololo]

We could always procure 100 F404s extra, as sanction buffer. They only need careful storage in a clean environment and periodic servicing and running.

Kind of like how you preventively maintain a car or a bike when it is going to be immobile for several months. The fact that they are not doing it must mean the threat of sanctions is not as real as it's made out to be.

Besides, France is firmly in the US camp- look at how they stalled delivery of the Mistrals to Russia under American pressure. So any Western bloc engine will be sanction prone till we master the know why and know how to create a whole family of engines from scratch- and retain 100% IP within the country.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/09/03/france-backs-off-sending-mistral-warship-to-russia-in-1-7-billion-deal/

Very true. But then Mistral AFAIK had a lot of US components and geopolitical scene was different then. Now with AUKUS France will certainly not hedge its bets with one country alone.

 

[Tshering22]

Totally agreed that "NOT 100% reliable" part. As short-sight or corruption seems always haunt France military export, esp sub deals.
If France had been pitching in so much, the P75 project won't see so much frustration during 2012~2015 period. I still remember back then the only news you can get reg P75 were bad news.
Moreover, AUKUS is NOT the only deal slashed on France face - Australia already repeated final warnings for delay and cost overrun before mid-2021. All France sub deals in that past 20 years had been arousing all kinds of scandal - murder in Malaysia deal (2006), Sofma money laundry in Pakistan (1995).
So NO, I won't be hailing France for its intention to give nuke sub (tech), at least not whole-heartly.

Remind me again who is providing the tech for both nuclear submarines and fighter jets? Russia alone. And while Russian nuclear subs are deadly and serve our purpose, their aircraft engines are not as good as French or Americans peers.

They require extensive overhauls, therefore turning fighter jets into hangar queens. Case and point the Navy's MiG-29Ks that have a low availability rate that has reduced Navy's combat operations to be split into two parts instead of operating all 45 jets all the time. One simple look at Karwar/Dabolim will give you the answer.

The last time I checked, Americans want us to become Germany/Japan/Philippines 2.0 before they would part with anything meaningful and logically so as they see us as a future competition (though we are far, far away from that and have no intention to compete for their post of being the global cop). British would have been a good option if they hadn't voluntarily acceded their politics to the Americans. Also, the same mentality, just less effective or relevant.

Unless I missed out some country, that leaves us with 2 choices; France or Russia. Simple.

Even the Israelis don't have their own engine program.

 

[blackjack]

Its disappointing that Turkey and India have to be reliant on foreign engines and it will be interesting to see which will be put into service 1st between the TAI-TFX and AMCA.

Also India wants to purchase S-500 and just like what the U.S. did to Germany laying off the gas for 6 months from nordstream 2 they might threaten France next on selling engines to India.

 

[Concard]

Its disappointing that Turkey and India have to be reliant on foreign engines and it will be interesting to see which will be put into service 1st between the TAI-TFX and AMCA.

Also India wants to purchase S-500 and just like what the U.S. did to Germany laying off the gas for 6 months from nordstream 2 they might threaten France next on selling engines to India.

1) Turkey has never built a proper 4th generation Jet. How can they jump directly to 5th generation and expect to be successful? And we are not even talking about their economy which is in a downward spiral. For a project of this magnitude you need lot of funding. It is more likely India might be successful with AMCA given that all the subsystems have been developed for Tejas and more will be developed and improved for MK2. The only sticking point is the Engine which I think we will sort it out by the end of this decade.

2) No, we are not buying S-500. I don't know who is spreading this BS. S-500 will not have any significant improvement over S-400. India already has missile defense program. S-400 is only a stop gap measure until we have our own missile defense in order.

3) France has a independent foreign policy. They will do what is in their interest. Example: They didn't sanction us after Pokhran. They gave the middle finger when Bush asked for support for Iraq war. With respect to sanctioning Russia after Crimea annexation, it is more do with the fact that Russia is on a collision course with EU. After all France is a part of EU. It is but natural they sanctioned Russia.

 

[MonaLazy]

2) No, we are not buying S-500.

What do you know that the Russian Deputy PM does not?

From wiki:
It is designed for intercepting and destroying intercontinental ballistic missiles, as well as hypersonic cruise missiles and aircraft, for air defense against Airborne Early Warning and Control and for jamming aircraft.[citation needed] With a planned range of 600 km (370 mi) for anti-ballistic missile (ABM) and 500 km (310 mi) for air defence,[21] the S-500 would be able to detect and simultaneously engage up to 10 ballistic hypersonic targets flying at a speed of 5 kilometres per second (3.1 mi/s; 18,000 km/h; 11,000 mph)[22][23] to a limit of 7 km/s (4.3 mi/s; 25,000 km/h; 16,000 mph).[24][25] It also aims at destroying hypersonic cruise missiles and other aerial targets at speeds of higher than Mach 5, as well as spacecraft.[citation needed] The altitude of a target engaged can be as high as 180–200 km (110–120 mi).[citation needed] It is effective against ballistic missiles with a launch range of 3,500 km (2,200 mi), the radar reaches a radius of 3,000 km (1,300 km for the EPR 0,1 square meter).[26][27] Other targets it has been announced to defend against include: unmanned aerial vehicles, low Earth orbit satellites, and space weapons launched from hypersonic aircraft, and hypersonic orbital platforms

 

[Concard]

What do you know that the Russian Deputy PM does not?

Who cares about Russia's deputy PM? Did GoI say it explicitly? If not there is no point digging into this.

 

[MonaLazy]

Who cares about Russia's deputy PM? Did GoI say it explicitly? If not there is no point digging into this.

I see your point. But do we have interceptors for hypersonic cruise missiles? I don't think so since the first requirement for building an interceptor is to have the weapon to test against. Do we have any equivalent of 3M22 Tsirkon?

Point to note is China has an accelerated hypersonic cruise missile development program- even the US is feeling the heat. We seem back enough on the tech curve here to warrant imports.

 

[WARREN SS]

I see your point. But do we have interceptors for hypersonic cruise missiles? I don't think so since the first requirement for building an interceptor is to have the weapon to test against. Do we have any equivalent of 3M22 Tsirkon?

Point to note is China has an accelerated hypersonic cruise missile development program- even the US is feeling the heat. We seem back enough on the tech curve here to warrant imports.

S-500 will come much somewhere near 2030

I don't think by the time india need it

After Russia will deploy it in its own back yard



India will certainly buying time frame to develop its
Own industry by then

So Don't be hopeful for S-500 In near
Future.

Or next 10 years

Other ways to counter Hypersonic threat is developing our own HGV which already in progress
As we speak

 

[THESIS THORON]

S-500 will come much somewhere near 2030

MOD BABUS GOT NO CHILL BRO,

you can expect anything except supporting indian products.

so, anything can happen.

 

[JBH22]

France is not the problem. US is. They were the problem in Russian Mistrals also. Who is to say what will offend the Americans tomorrow? May be another nuclear test or S-500.. who knows? & French aren't exactly immune to American pressure.

French after AUKUS submarine bamboo, have realised the mistake they did with Mistral.
It was a severe dent to their credibility, some how mouth has begun to opened that pursuing an independent foreign policy is better. It will not be french standalone, but EU coalition type. Easier said than done when EU is going through some rough patches.
So far the French have not betrayed India, but as you rightly pointed out they are not immune.

 

[Concard]

French after AUKUS submarine bamboo, have realised the mistake they did with Mistral.
It was a severe dent to their credibility, some how mouth has begun to opened that pursuing an independent foreign policy is better. It will not be french standalone, but EU coalition type. Easier said than done when EU is going through some rough patches.
So far the French have not betrayed India, but as you rightly pointed out they are not immune.

After UK's exit, France and Germany will be the core of EU block. Having France on your side is important. With respect to Mistral, France did not have a choice in this matter. When Russia threatens the interests of EU you can expect even France with independent foreign policy to act.