AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[thefewthefearless]

Are MiG-21's going to be retained in service post-2025? There will not be enough Mk1A's to replace the venerable MiG's until way past 2025.

they will keep it. like usa did with the nighthawks. piss poor reference ik.

 

[MonaLazy]

PM Modi is keeping his hands away from defence deals for now after Rafale

Pure conjecture, nothing else. Tejas Mk1A, LCH, Arjun Mk1A, DRDO AWACS based on AI's Airbus, C-295, AK-103, Predator drones, agreement with US to develop drones under DTTI to name just a few.

If it was all about cost and technology, then don't you think India would have been making our own fighters 3 decades back itself?

ever hear about LCA Tejas?

You need to read more about what happened to the Tejas program after 1998

Extracted from Radiance in Indian Skies- The Tejas Saga. Clearly mentioned by Dr VS Arunachalam that the jet engine collab was smooth, FBW was successful- they did not help with CLAWs- so entered our own CLAW man Dr Deodhare.

Maybe because jet engines are sold as black boxes with enough IP protection baked in legally & of course the profit margins are fat- so they had no issues ever with engine supply.

GE F-414 engines selected to power India's Light Combat Aircraft Program

While this was selected for Tejas Mk2, if the government simply decided to scrap it in favour of MRFA and order more Mk1As, where do you think that the engines go? Into the current variants of Tejas. 99 engines, that could include some reserve engines as well.

Selected does not mean procured. There is no way the F414 will fit inside either Mk1 or Mk1A.

GE itself mentions the F414-INS6 is still in development- & will probably be the most powerful iteration of F414 when the procurement deal is signed (just like F404 powering Mk1 and its variants).

F414 Engine | GE Aerospace

F414Engine

www.geaviation.com

We have only between 2 to a dozen+ F414s (depending on who you believe) delivered as the initial lot (separate from 404s)

GE supplies two test engines for Tejas Mk-2, eyes collaboration for AMCA

General Electric or GE has delivered two qualified 414 engines to be tested on the planned homegrown Tejas Mk-2 single engine fighter and is looking to collaborate with India to build engines for the proposed advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA). The Tejas fighter has been powered by the...

www.business-standard.com

This is all good till there are no sanctions. The confidence with which we are playing both sides is almost as if we could re-manufacture the F-414s if Biden-Harris sanction us for future Russian deals. I sure hope our tech industry & politicians have the spine to ignore all IP clauses and start copying the engines into something meaningful if sanctions happen again.

Never gonna happen, unfortunately, we are not China, and stealing is not an option. The cure for a sanction-happy regime in America is money- like Predator drones for S-400 without CAATSA.

 

[The Mimic]

Yes, Japan used the right approach: sort out an engine in good time to avoid ending up with a production aircraft with no engine, the position in which India and Turkey currently find themselves. Turkey's position is even worse - it seems that permission to use the GE F100 for the prototype TF-X may not be forthcoming from US Congress.

Turkey sinks into denial over defense programs

By dint of wanting to play on several fronts at the same time, Ankara now seems to see the prospects for its ambitious defense programs

www.meta-defense.fr

As for dumping AMCA and starting on a 6G aircraft... ???

A lot has already been created by Japan on its own. For example, a jet engine with parameters comparable to the best American and Russian counterparts (147 kN thrust with afterburning). The fact that the creation of a failure-free engine with high parameters and, at the same time, a profitable service life and maintenance-free periods is currently unavailable for most countries in the world, including the PRC, makes it possible to realize the scale of the Japanese potential to create an independent design.

 

[fire starter]

 

[Megalomaniac]

Guys, I changed the Header picture of AMCA in wikipedia. You can check now. Picture is not my own work. Credit to Mr. Ankur Chauhan.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Soo DamnCA will enter production in 2035, okay.
Well done!
www.businessworld.in/article/With-Certainty-LCA-MK-2-Aircraft-Is-Slated-To-Enter-Production-By-2027-And-AMCA-By-2035-HAL-CMD-R-Madhavan-/17-11-2021-412423/

 

[IndianHawk]

The article says amca will be certified by 2030-32 .

 

[Kalkioftoday]

Soo DamnCA will enter production in 2035, okay.
Well done!
www.businessworld.in/article/With-Certainty-LCA-MK-2-Aircraft-Is-Slated-To-Enter-Production-By-2027-And-AMCA-By-2035-HAL-CMD-R-Madhavan-/17-11-2021-412423/

It's probably AMCA Mk2

 

[Shashank Nayak]

It's probably AMCA Mk2

Its AMCA MK1.. IAF would probably take 5 years for Initial operational clearance.. So, maybe we will have first flight of AMCA by 2030..

 

[Kalkioftoday]

Its AMCA MK1.. IAF would probably take 5 years 5 years for Initial operational clearance.. Sk, maybe we will ha e first flight of AMCA by 2030..

Whilw we are at it, let's order some jf17 to counter the chino J20 & J31s

 

[Kalkioftoday]

Kya bana rahe ha Bhagwan jane.

 

[Tshering22]

Pure conjecture, nothing else. Tejas Mk1A, LCH, Arjun Mk1A, DRDO AWACS based on AI's Airbus, C-295, AK-103, Predator drones, agreement with the US to develop drones under DTTI to name just a few.

And are you saying that PM Modi is the brains behind this? No, he had given free hand to Gen. Rawat who was his most trusted military officer apart from Ninda Turtle politically speaking. As a member here mentioned in another post, there has to be some really pressing issues for the PM to directly step in.

ever hear about LCA Tejas?

I meant we would have developed AND operationalized a domestic fighter jet 3 decades ago. Not carried a 3-decade old project till today. In short, AMCA should have been our recent induct right now.

Extracted from Radiance in Indian Skies- The Tejas Saga. Clearly mentioned by Dr VS Arunachalam that the jet engine collab was smooth, FBW was successful- they did not help with CLAWs- so entered our own CLAW man Dr Deodhare.

View attachment 124977

Maybe because jet engines are sold as black boxes with enough IP protection baked in legally & of course the profit margins are fat- so they had no issues ever with engine supply.

Check this out. There seem to be conflicting reports.

Selected does not mean procured. There is no way the F414 will fit inside either Mk1 or Mk1A.

GE itself mentions the F414-INS6 is still in development- & will probably be the most powerful iteration of F414 when the procurement deal is signed (just like F404 powering Mk1 and its variants).

View attachment 124982

F414 Engine | GE Aerospace

F414Engine

www.geaviation.com

We have only between 2 to a dozen+ F414s (depending on who you believe) delivered as the initial lot (separate from 404s)

View attachment 124998

GE supplies two test engines for Tejas Mk-2, eyes collaboration for AMCA

General Electric or GE has delivered two qualified 414 engines to be tested on the planned homegrown Tejas Mk-2 single engine fighter and is looking to collaborate with India to build engines for the proposed advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA). The Tejas fighter has been powered by the...

www.business-standard.com

This is really interesting! Thanks for sharing. I wasn't aware that there would be a significant size difference.

Never gonna happen, unfortunately, we are not China, and stealing is not an option. The cure for a sanction-happy regime in America is money- like Predator drones for S-400 without CAATSA.

I have no doubt that the US companies are the best in the world in terms of defense tech and executing contracts. They are the best WHEN they have a green signal from the Pentagon.

You clearly forget that we have been giving them a lot of that since the last 10-12 years, and yet we get harrowed.

My point is, there will come a point where this threesome intimacy is not going to work out in the coming 3-5 years when a lot of stuff we see in development right now will become the mainstay, reducing imports further from any external party altogether. Also 5 years down, we will be a lot closer to looking like what China looks like today in terms of economics (not quite there, that might take 15 years more after that, but closer).

While I'd expect a friendlier/more pragmatic US administration by then, we don't know who would win. Biden may win a second term or not. If the current situation continues, we are looking at more pressure. They'd rather be:

- Buy our Stryker instead of WhAP
- Buy our future transport aircraft instead of Kawasaki C-2/ IL-476 (Gajraj replacement)
- Buy our XYZ instead of your local ABC

The moment we refuse there, the pressure will increase vis-a-vis our equation with Russia, either politically or geostrategically.

 

[Super Flanker]

If our airforce wanted it we would have stuck with the program. I think it just didnt meet our needs.

Yeah , you are Correct , it did not meet the Requirements of the Indian airforce to the Most Extent. Indian Airforce wanted a good Aircraft with a good amount of Stealth in it and have good engines present in it which would be Suitable to Power a 5th Generation Aircraft like The SU-57.
The Indian airforce left this Project and by god I am Glad they did so. The Russians were Also Asking for To many Funds and also the Aircraft was not as good as it was supposed to be. Indian airforce realised that it was no point investing in such a Program and Thus Decided to Withdraw and Pursue AMCA Independently whichI am glad they did though.

 

[Super Flanker]

Two Private companies to produce AMCA jets in India – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Two private companies to produce amca jets in India

Question is who are those two private entities?

Maybe partners like L&T ,TATA would be Likely Partners in this Project? Well that's what I am inclined to Believe here.

 

[MonaLazy]

And are you saying that PM Modi is the brains behind this?

Of course, the old man is involved! Everything goes via the CCS approval route, doesn't it?

I meant we would have developed AND operationalized a domestic fighter jet 3 decades ago. Not carried a 3-decade old project till today. In short, AMCA should have been our recent induct right now.

That was the plan- to have Tejas ready long ago. But the actual technical challenge stretched the dev cycle much longer necessitating life extensions on the mig-21s.

Check this out. There seem to be conflicting reports.

Can you point out where they say sourcing engines from the US was a problem?

Over a third of the components used in Tejas, including the current American-built engines, are imported. Sanctions imposed by the US after India conducted nuclear tests in May 1998 nearly brought the project to a grinding halt for it cut off access to certain imported technologies.

What they denied after sanctions was control laws- as clearly pointed out by Arunachalam Sir. The article snippet above could have definitely been worded better if it gives the impression that engines were embargoed.

This is really interesting! Thanks for sharing. I wasn't aware that there would be a significant size difference.

Size is same.. well almost!

Length & max dia is same. But inlet dia and airflow requirements are higher (wider air inlets in the aircraft) in F414. It also weighs more so needs stronger engine mounts. It also runs hotter so needs better thermal shielding from fuselage. They are not a direct swap for each other.

I have no doubt that the US companies are the best in the world in terms of defense tech and executing contracts. They are the best WHEN they have a green signal from the Pentagon.

You clearly forget that we have been giving them a lot of that since the last 10-12 years, and yet we get harrowed.

My point is, there will come a point where this threesome intimacy is not going to work out in the coming 3-5 years when a lot of stuff we see in development right now will become the mainstay, reducing imports further from any external party altogether. Also 5 years down, we will be a lot closer to looking like what China looks like today in terms of economics (not quite there, that might take 15 years more after that, but closer).

While I'd expect a friendlier/more pragmatic US administration by then, we don't know who would win. Biden may win a second term or not. If the current situation continues, we are looking at more pressure. They'd rather be:

- Buy our Stryker instead of WhAP
- Buy our future transport aircraft instead of Kawasaki C-2/ IL-476 (Gajraj replacement)
- Buy our XYZ instead of your local ABC

The moment we refuse there, the pressure will increase vis-a-vis our equation with Russia, either politically or geostrategically.

US understands money! & By pushing these sales they are furthering their interests and influence. Nothing wrong with that. I'm sure our government and bureaucracy can push back where needed (S400 acquisition being the latest despite US opposition, even saying no to Russia for Ka-226T MII) so a hand shake only happens where interests meet.

 

[Lonewolf]

So clearing out about AMCA , mk1 and mk2 classification are by iaf , drdo have only one project that is to make a 5.5 gen plane .


Amca mk1 is nota serial production model , like our mk1 tejas , foc and ioc , all will have model per model upgradation , clearance of all test means , engine as well as all other technologies ready too , as mentioned in project objectives , by 2032 ,so the aircraft can enter production in sp form (or mk2 )in 2035

 

[Akula]

Whilw we are at it, let's order some jf17 to counter the chino J20 & J31s

Maybe Hurjet from Turkey.

 

[SavageKing456]

So clearing out about AMCA , mk1 and mk2 classification are by iaf , drdo have only one project that is to make a 5.5 gen plane .


Amca mk1 is nota serial production model , like our mk1 tejas , foc and ioc , all will have model per model upgradation , clearance of all test means , engine as well as all other technologies ready too , as mentioned in project objectives , by 2032 ,so the aircraft can enter production in sp form (or mk2 )in 2035

People care more about timelines than the technology it brings :/
The amca would be beast whenever it matures fully.

 

[Lonewolf]

People care more about timelines than the technology it brings :/
The amca would be beast whenever it matures fully.

Exactly , you cannot put a half baked plane in serial production

 

[THESIS THORON]

Exactly , you cannot put a half baked plane in serial production

Yes, but we can speed up things