AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Tshering22]

XF9 engine, XA 100 VC Engine, and RR engine for tempest (with very high electrical power) will be used as templates for a domestic high thrust military turbofan. If India decides to be conservative in approach then our engine will be an F414 EPE type, which can be achieved with a JV with Snecma. If it decides to go all out then they will try to imbibe the XF9's small form factor with the XA100 VCE's versatility and the RR's revolutionary high electrical power generation capability. Lets see which approach is taken. It won't be easy or cheap.
There is no middle ground in either case.

The Brits have been inviting us for a long time to join Project Tempest or at least ask GTRE to collaborate on the next-generation engine with Rolls Royce.

If we can create India-specific requirements with them, that means we would have joint access to the IP of the engine (without American say over it, in case things get sour in the future). Our government has to be cognizant of future sanctions by the US for both our fighter fleet as well as our transport fleet.

UK to invite India to co-develop Sixth Generation Tempest Fighter Aircraft


Right now it is a tough fight between RR & Snecma.

Though personally, I am batting fully for the French.

 

[Trololo]

The Brits have been inviting us for a long time to join Project Tempest or at least ask GTRE to collaborate on the next-generation engine with Rolls Royce.

If we can create India-specific requirements with them, that means we would have joint access to the IP of the engine (without American say over it, in case things get sour in the future). Our government has to be cognizant of future sanctions by the US for both our fighter fleet as well as our transport fleet.

UK to invite India to co-develop Sixth Generation Tempest Fighter Aircraft


Right now it is a tough fight between RR & Snecma.

Though personally, I am batting fully for the French.

UK foreign policy is fully under US control. One grrr by the us government and all cooperation will cease.

 

[Spitfire9]

UK to invite India to co-develop Sixth Generation Tempest Fighter Aircraft

That was 2019. I think that Tempest project definition was agreed between partners by the end of last year. If India wanted any input, time to get involved was before now. However, it promises to be a very expensive project. I would think that if India is interested, the Tempest partners would be pleased to discuss Indian participation.

What would not be helpful to Tempest would be a partner that cannot make decisions without enormous delays, so slowing the project down.

 

[Tshering22]

That was 2019. I think that Tempest project definition was agreed between partners by the end of last year. If India wanted any input, time to get involved was before now. However, it promises to be a very expensive project. I would think that if India is interested, the Tempest partners would be pleased to discuss Indian participation.

What would not be helpful to Tempest would be a partner that cannot make decisions without enormous delays, so slowing the project down.

Well, the AMCA and Tempest are two completely different projects with different priorities. Based on the information available online, Sweden is the main partner for the UK on this project, while Turkey has been trying its best to get access to the project (merging their TF-X concept with Tempest if some reports are to be believed).

India's main interest would most likely be a custom-built engine, in a joint collaboration. A 6th gen engine would be a future-proof investment for the AMCA.

 

[Spitfire9]

India's main interest would most likely be a custom-built engine, in a joint collaboration. A 6th gen engine would be a future-proof investment for the AMCA.

On 6th gen engine joint collaboration: what knowhow could DRDE bring to the party? There needs to be something joint about a joint venture.

 

[Super Flanker]

Are MiG-21's going to be retained in service post-2025? There will not be enough Mk1A's to replace the venerable MiG's until way past 2025.

highly Doubt that we will Keep operating MIG-21s up till post 2025. It's already time we retire the Mig-21 from Active Service, it's a flying coffin with a terrible (and when I say Terrible, I mean it!) Crash Record.
We are Losing so many Pilots to this Aircraft. So I don't think so we will operate this Aircrafts post 2025-2026 ,Not happening in my opinion.
Anyways it's not that we have to Replace our Current number of MIG-21s with the Exact Number of Tejas mk1a, Tejas mk1a is more Advanced and Modern than the Mig-21 Aircraft. Let's say 1 Tejas mk1a is equal to 3 MIG-21 BISON Aircrafts.

Indian airforce has approximately 125 MIG-21s which are of Bison standard, so 83 Tejas mk1a will be able to Replace all of these Aircrafts effectively from my personal point of view.

 

[Tshering22]

On 6th gen engine joint collaboration: what knowhow could DRDE bring to the party? There needs to be something joint about a joint venture.

GTRE you mean. They have developed an engine before, but that's not been so successful. My guess is that it would be more about capital and implementing the improvements they have learned from the testbeds developed after the Kaveri project while honing RR's expertise in this area and 50:50 capital share.

The assumption is based on the progress made that is available in public space. I could be wrong or inadequate here.

 

[Super Flanker]

The Brits have been inviting us for a long time to join Project Tempest or at least ask GTRE to collaborate on the next-generation engine with Rolls Royce.

The Brits have been inviting us for a long time to join the Project, because Particularly they need funding for This project, I have heard that Britain has a lack of Funds for These type of projects so hence they need a country which can Fund lot of money for the program, a country like India.
Anyways I don't think so we should enter any project to Co-develop any kind of 5-6 gen Aircraft considering how The Russian FGFA project turned out to be a failure.
Watch this video :

 

[Tshering22]

highly Doubt that we will Keep operating MIG-21s up till post 2025. It's already time we retire the Mig-21 from Active Service, it's a flying coffin with a terrible (and when I say Terrible, I mean it!) Crash Record.
We are Losing so many Pilots to this Aircraft. So I don't think so we will operate this Aircrafts post 2025-2026 ,Not happening in my opinion.
Anyways it's not that we have to Replace our Current number of MIG-21s with the Exact Number of Tejas mk1a, Tejas mk1a is more Advanced and Modern than the Mig-21 Aircraft. Let's say 1 Tejas mk1a is equal to 3 MIG-21 BISON Aircrafts.
View attachment 124724
Indian airforce has approximately 125 MIG-21s which are of Bison standard, so 83 Tejas mk1a will be able to Replace all of these Aircrafts effectively from my personal point of view.
View attachment 124723

Not to forget the follow-on order of MK1As which is more likely since MK2 is most likely going to get axed in favor of speeding up the AMCA based on the new Air Chief's statement. IAF is keen on getting the 114 jets ASAP and does not want an MK2 based on a jet that is not even there for a demonstration. While MoD has the final say, most likely they will give in for political reasons since AMCA will be expedited.

HAL has almost completed the third new plant. This would speed up the production of Tejas.

 

[Super Flanker]

Not to forget the follow-on order of MK1As which is more likely since MK2 is most likely going to get axed in favor of speeding up the AMCA based on the new Air Chief's statement. IAF is keen on getting the 114 jets ASAP and does not want an MK2 based on a jet that is not even there for a demonstration. While MoD has the final say, most likely they will give in for political reasons since AMCA will be expedited.

HAL has almost completed the third new plant. This would speed up the production of Tejas.

I agree with you

 

[Tactical Doge]

Let's say 1 Tejas mk1a is equal to 3 MIG-21 BISON Aircrafts.

Indian airforce has approximately 125 MIG-21s which are of Bison standard, so 83 Tejas mk1a will be able to Replace all of these Aircrafts effectively

I don't think that is the right approach
Numbers matter where numbers matter, LCA was envisaged to replace the MiGs themselves

 

[Super Flanker]

I don't think that is the right approach
Numbers matter where numbers matter, LCA was envisaged to replace the MiGs themselves

I have just shared what I believe from my personal side. Yes LCA was envisaged as a replacement for The MIG-21 Aircraft but it has become much more than that in my opinion. What was envisaged back in day and what is today is different (this is my Personal Perspective About it)

 

[Tshering22]

I don't think that is the right approach
Numbers matter where numbers matter, LCA was envisaged to replace the MiGs themselves

Tejas has come a long way from being a point defence fighter since 2001. There have been constant updates made to it. It has everything a modern 4.5 gen fighter needs - FBW, glass cockpit, composite structures, smaller radar signature, capable of shooting BVRAAMs, and is on track to get the Mayavi EW suite and Uttam AESA radar soon.

A lot of this will be applied to AMCA as well. The only place where we currently lag and badly need foreign support is the engines. GE F-414 is a big gamble as it can render our fighter fleet useless on the mere whim of the Americans.

The deal for F-414s ordered for Tejas has already been signed so we can't do anything about it in the future. But AMCA will be the bleeding edge of the IAF in the future and we cannot let it be so vulnerable.

 

[MonaLazy]

since MK2 is most likely going to get axed in favor of speeding up the AMCA based on the new Air Chief's statement. IAF is keen on getting the 114 jets ASAP and does not want an MK2 based on a jet that is not even there for a demonstration.

Mk2 is NOT getting axed- there is an ASQR in place that ADA is aiming to meet with that design. How to nullify that process which has a momentum of its own? Can IAF walk away saying we don't want a plane that conforms to our own requirements and we want to push imports? That's against the grain of aatmanirbharta. Once the ASQR is submitted IAF steps back from the program temporarily, while the plane is realised, only to come back around the time ground trials are started. It's just that IAF is worried about axing of MRFA and the small capability increment it brings over Mk2 (for a whole lot more money) besides adding quality and quantity to squadron numbers. This is an old discussion of why no more Mk1As- IAF wants a more capable airframe beyond the 123 Mk1s.

In fact, by now Mk2 should be at an advanced stage of production.

I'll be worried about Mk2 only if the political leadership endorses MRFA over Mk2 otherwise it is above the air chief's pay grade to kill that program.

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Tejas has come a long way from being a point defence fighter since 2001.
A lot of this will be applied to AMCA as well.

Then why throw it all away?? Why not a Mk2A program to pull ahead of the Rafale F3R standard? 4 & 5 gen are mutually complimentary and likely to operate side by side. Director ADA had himself said they need Mk2 as a stepping stone to AMCA - as a necessary validation of all the tech that has matured so far

The only place where we currently lag and badly need foreign support is the engines. GE F-414 is a big gamble as it can render our fighter fleet useless on the mere whim of the Americans.

Of course but I remember reading that engine supply from US has never been a problem even when we were under sanctions for nuke tests.

The deal for F-414s ordered for Tejas has already been signed so we can't do anything about it in the future. But AMCA will be the bleeding edge of the IAF in the future and we cannot let it be so vulnerable.

There's a deal for 404s for Mk1A, not 414s of Mk2.

 

[Trololo]

Mk2 is NOT getting axed- there is an ASQR in place that ADA is aiming to meet with that design. How to nullify that process which has a momentum of its own? Can IAF walk away saying we don't want a plane that conforms to our own requirements and we want to push imports? That's against the grain of aatmanirbharta. Once the ASQR is submitted IAF steps back from the program temporarily, while the plane is realised, only to come back around the time ground trials are started. It's just that IAF is worried about axing of MRFA and the small capability increment it brings over Mk2 (for a whole lot more money) besides adding quality and quantity to squadron numbers. This is an old discussion of why no more Mk1As- IAF wants a more capable airframe beyond the 123 Mk1s.

In fact, by now Mk2 should be at an advanced stage of production.

View attachment 124733

I'll be worried about Mk2 only if the political leadership endorses MRFA over Mk2 otherwise it is above the air chief's pay grade to kill that program.

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Then why throw it all away?? Why not a Mk2A program to pull ahead of the Rafale F3R standard? 4 & 5 gen are mutually complimentary and likely to operate side by side. Director ADA had himself said they need Mk2 as a stepping stone to AMCA - as a necessary validation of all the tech that has matured so far



Of course but I remember reading that engine supply from US has never been a problem even when we were under sanctions for nuke tests.



There's a deal for 404s for Mk1A, not 414s of Mk2.

No 99 414s have been ordered AFAIK for the Mk2.

 

[flanker99]

No 99 414s have been ordered AFAIK for the Mk2.

Not ordered but under negotiation...orders will only be placed after IAF signs a deal with HAL

 

[MonaLazy]

No 99 414s have been ordered AFAIK for the Mk2.

How can you order engines when the Mk2 contract is not out yet? How can you contract for Mk2 when it has not even flown yet? How can it fly when it has not even been fully fabricated yet?

There is a strictly sequential process at work here and it will play out similar to Mk1/A but with fewer stages.

So far GE F414s have been only selected to power Mk2 and GE will be manufacturing the engines in India whenever the dotted line gets inked.

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[Tshering22]

I'll be worried about Mk2 only if the political leadership endorses MRFA over Mk2 otherwise it is above the air chief's pay grade to kill that program.

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PM Modi is keeping his hands away from defence deals for now after the Rafale issue. I don't know why but it is a sign of weakness. I don't like that attitude of softness shown towards those who want to screw the deal.

Then why throw it all away?? Why not a Mk2A program to pull ahead of the Rafale F3R standard? 4 & 5 gen are mutually complimentary and likely to operate side by side. Director ADA had himself said they need Mk2 as a stepping stone to AMCA - as a necessary validation of all the tech that has matured so far

If it was all about cost and technology, then don't you think India would have been making our own fighters 3 decades back itself?

It is always political in India. Simple.

Of course but I remember reading that engine supply from US has never been a problem even when we were under sanctions for nuke tests.

You need to read more about what happened to the Tejas program after 1998. We could not even take the design details that were submitted to Boeing which was the property of India. Basically, Boeing kicked our officials out without giving us our own stuff and threatened action under the freshly imposed sanctions. This was mentioned by the director of Tejas program some years back in a detailed TOI interview.

The F-404s that were already with India were used to test the Tejas jets. Though sanctions were removed after 9/11 due to increased collaboration, ISRO was the worst to suffer as US did a lot of damage to our indigenous space program by colluding with Yeltsin's Russia. This resulted in ISRO tightening its belt and becoming self-reliant. Today, it only cooperates on projects where there is equal share of work or the scope of learning something is there. Otherwise it is mostly self-reliant.

Why I mentioned ISRO here is because the entire aerospace industry is affected. US sanctions means that no third party can guarantee any availability. That's the ONLY reason why India did not kill Tejas in favour of JAS-39 Gripen, even under the corrupt UPA regime. Sweden has no control over the export of licensed GE engines.

There's a deal for 404s for Mk1A, not 414s of Mk2.

GE F-414 engines selected to power India's Light Combat Aircraft Program

While this was selected for Tejas Mk2, if the government simply decided to scrap it in favour of MRFA and order more Mk1As, where do you think that the engines go? Into the current variants of Tejas. 99 engines, that could include some reserve engines as well.

This is all good till there are no sanctions. The confidence with which we are playing both sides is almost as if we could re-manufacture the F-414s if Biden-Harris sanction us for future Russian deals. I sure hope our tech industry & politicians have the spine to ignore all IP clauses and start copying the engines into something meaningful if sanctions happen again.

 

[Spitfire9]

The confidence with which we are playing both sides is almost as if we could re-manufacture the F-414s if Biden-Harris sanction us for future Russian deals. I sure hope our tech industry & politicians have the spine to ignore all IP clauses and start copying the engines into something meaningful if sanctions happen again.

Then I think India could wave goodbye to any joint ventures with RR or SAFRAN (or supplies of systems with protected IP). Have you forgotten that India has yet to succeed in developing a fast jet engine approaching the performance of what US and Europe developed decades ago?

PS While I see no justification for US sanctions for buying S-400, I would see every reason for US sanctions if India started abusing IP agreements with US companies.

 

[Tshering22]

Then I think India could wave goodbye to any joint ventures with RR or SAFRAN (or supplies of systems with protected IP). Have you forgotten that India has yet to succeed in developing a fast jet engine approaching the performance of what US and Europe developed decades ago?

PS While I see no justification for US sanctions for buying S-400, I would see every reason for US sanctions if India started abusing IP agreements with US companies.

This is only in the case that sanctions are imposed. Not otherwise.

There is a considerable study of jet propulsion technology going on in our labs already which means that there is a prior knowledge and application history of how to make them. It will then be about refining them to the level that is available in the West and progressively take it from there.

I truly hope that there are no sanctions, but we all know what the US foreign policy is like.

British don't feel much heat because of your alliance with them, but with an aggressive China on our borders, a US sanction would be a direct threat to our national security. The last thing you want is with half of your combat capability downed due to a flimsy excuse.

Remember we have most of our airlift capabilities that are American in the form of C-130s and C-17s. All that gets hit as well as several GE-powered ships in the Navy. All these would be rendered weaker due to lack of assurance of future spare parts. Politics aside, it threatens our stability.

Tell me, do you really think if CAATSA is imposed on us unilaterally, we will worry about future collaborations or securing our interests against a belligerent China? At that time, the priority will be securing immediate interests. IP protection is a part of the agreement that there won't be any disruption of defence or national security due to uninformed unilateral decisions made. Once that is done and the customer is exposed, IP does not really hold much candle.