AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

Twinblade

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Sorry, but F-35 capability comes with F-35 heft; it can't be conjured out of thin air.
Your math is correct, but you are wrong in assuming that the specs would be similar to JSF. F-35 comes with a massive fuel capacity of 8.7 tons, range of a flanker and MTOW of an F-15. AMCA is smaller, much much smaller, with two 75/110 KN engines. About 4 tons internal fuel and much lesser MTOW (link). We are talking about much lesser wing area, much thinner profile and a much lighter structure. Couple that with replacing all the massive interface cables with fiber optics and you are looking at a much lighter airplane. So going by your math:

25% more empty than Rafale (9.5 tons) :- ~ 11.85 tons
Add to that 4-5 tons of internal fuel : 16.85 tons
Add about 2-2.5 tons of internal weapons: 19.35 tons
and about 5-6 tons of external weapons: 25.35 tons

Which falls right around the MTOW of a Rafale.

PS: Learn to use metric system like literate people. Trust me it's easy.
PPS: Sorry to hear about your nephew. Does it run in the family ?
 
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SilentKiller

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Whatever, i will always prefer twin engine fighter over single.
one for safety reason and another reliability.
 

lookieloo

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@Twinblade @p2prada

MTOW is a fanboy metric (rarely used in real life). Engines run on fuel (lots and lots of it), not good intentions. Internal weapons need bays, which are essentially holes in the airframe; and in the parlance of aircraft engineers "holes are heavy." Any idiot who's ever handled fiber optic cables knows why they have limited utility in the tight confines of a fighter plane.
 
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p2prada

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Twinblade p2prada
MTOW is a fanboy metric (rarely used in real life).
It is not a fanboy metric. It is a real figure and is very important when designing an aircraft.

Engines run on fuel (lots and lots of it), not good intentions.
Rafale has 4.5 tonnes of fuel. EF has 5 tonnes of fuel. Mig-29M has 4.5 tonnes of fuel. F-16 B52 has 3.1 tonnes of fuel. LCA Mk1 has 2.45 tonnes of fuel.

AMCA will have 4 tonnes of fuel (on paper).

How about going out there and reading a bit before posting your views.

Among heavier aircraft. F-35 has between 8.3 and 8.8 tonnes of fuel. Eagles have 6 tonnes of fuel. Flankers have between 9.5 tonnes and 13.5 tonnes of fuel, depending on variant. F-22 has 8.3 tonnes of fuel. Hence a greater size and weight.

Internal weapons need bays, which are essentially holes in the airframe; and in the parlance of aircraft engineers "holes are heavy."
Don't get your point.

Any idiot who's ever handled fiber optic cables knows why they have limited utility in the tight confines of a fighter plane.
OFCs are lighter than copper wires. They have greater utility in aircraft that current methods of data transfer. Fly by light is the next generation of FCS compared to the previous generation of fly by wire.
 

ersakthivel

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The reason for such heavy loads of fuel on F-35 is they are going to operate from bases far away from home and far away from the area of fighting.
There is no enemy of the US who is present in the north American continent.infact if you see the american fighters they never had to fight near their borders and home bases.

Same is the case with Russia. Since when did a russian airforce or USSR airforce fighters headed into battle just off their home bases?

But in India ,china ,Pak theater is exact opposite of the US. Once fighters get off their base they head straight into combat. SO such a long range and heavy fuel loads are not needed for AMCA or LCA.


SO comparing the flanker range and F-35 range is irrelevant here.

When these ranges are needed by IAF,only to patrol the seas to ward off a future chinese navy,Those days are far off.Even if the need arose we are getting flankers and FGFA for that purpose. For defending the hinterland the fuel load and range of LCA and AMCA will do in more than 80 percent of the occasions.
 
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Twinblade

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A pretty good article on the AMCA project and the technologies that are being aimed at by SP's aviation.
A summary of the article:-

- The FSED* phase begins within one year.
- Touch screen and voice command based interface
- HMDS that makes Heads up display redundant
- Triplex fly by light instead of quadruplex fly by wire system
- Distributed architecture instead of centralised architecture as on Tejas.
- Distributed flight control system with smart remote units capable of interaction with sensors on their own, instead of centralised digital flight control system as on Tejas.
- Optical air data sensors, optic fiber communication buses.
- Electro-hydrostatic** actuators instead of electro hydraulic actuators.
- Higher degree of Sensor fusion than what is being attempted on Tejas (obviously).
- MIL-STD-1553B and RS 422 connections to get replaced by high speed fiber channel bus based on IEEE-1394BSTD. Data transfer rates of 400Mb/sec.
- Algorithms that would provide decision aids to the pilot compared to none on Tejas.

SP's Aviation - SP’s Exculsive
----------------------------
* FSED: Full scale engineering design. The system life cycle has seven phases: (1) discovering system requirements, (2) investigating alternatives, (3) full-scale engineering design, (4) implementation, (5) integration and test, (6) operation, maintenance and evaluation and (7) retirement, disposal and replacement.
** Electro-hydrostatic actuators are basically high power stepper motors.
 

Libertarian

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But in India ,china ,Pak theater is exact opposite of the US. Once fighters get off their base they head straight into combat. SO such a long range and heavy fuel loads are not needed for AMCA or LCA.
But it wouldn't hurt to have that capability. India needs to look beyond the Pak/China scenario.
 

p2prada

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But it wouldn't hurt to have that capability. India needs to look beyond the Pak/China scenario.
As you said, we need high range. What most people don't realize is that high range also translates to greater endurance. IAF needs aircraft that can stay in the air forever. Since that is not possible, the next best would be something like Rafale and MKI which can stay in the air from 2 hours to 10 hours (16 hours for Rafale) at a time with air to air refueling. Primarily for CAP.

There is nothing better than having an aircraft in the air than on the ground. The longer it stays in the air the better and more capable the aircraft.

Even strike aircraft need greater endurance since they are expected to engage and disengage depending on the situation and a green signal by escorts and air superiority aircraft.

1000 km range is pitiful. Even Mig-29 has a range of 1500 km. I don't like it.
I don't know what you are referring to. Range or combat radius. Combat radius is half of range.

An aircraft like the Mig-29K has a range around of 2200Km, same with aircraft like Rafale. Combat radius comes down to 1100Km. Drop tanks increase this. Both have 4.5 tonnes of fuel.

Flanker has a range between 3000Km (MKI) and 3600Km(Su-35BM). That's a combat radius between 1500 and 1800Km. MKI carries 9.5 tonnes of fuel and BM carries 11.5 tonnes of fuel.

F-22 has a range of around 2000Km and a combat radius of around 1000Km.
F-35 has a range of 2200Km for F-35A, 2500Km for F-35C. F-22 carries 8.3 tonnes of fuel and F-35 carries around 8 to 9 tonnes of fuel depending on the version.

If AMCA is built for a range around 2000Km and combat radius of around 1000Km, that's more than plenty for an aircraft of this size. 4 tonnes of fuel.

Each of them has an internal fuel endurance of 2.5 hours to 4 hours. Drop tanks are used to increase range and hence endurance. Mid air refueling obviously helps.
 

Libertarian

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I don't know what you are referring to. Range or combat radius. Combat radius is half of range.
Not sure... I got it from wiki:
Wiki said:
Range: 1,430 km (772 nmi, 888 mi) with maximum internal fuel[152]
Ferry range: 2,100 km (1,300 mi) with 1 drop tank
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-294

And 2000 Km range for AMCA is fine. Wiki claims the range (not combat range) is 1000 km, which is why I was a little confused.


For that we have RAFALE, FGFA(T-50),SUKHOI-30 MKI
Yeah, but India shouldn't have to depend on foreign nations, to have its military needs met.
 
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p2prada

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That's the basic Mig-29A. There are various versions of the Mig-29. Wiki gave figures for 3 tonnes of fuel.

Mig-29Ks come with 4.5 tonnes of fuel. Hence greater range.

Yeah, but India shouldn't have to depend on foreign nations, to have its military needs met.
There is a difference between depending because we can't and depending even though we can.

As of today, we are depending on them because we can't.

We are still 20-30 years away from being a fully indigenous country. Until then we have to keep depending on foreign sources for a lot of crucial requirements.
 

Libertarian

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There is a difference between depending because we can't and depending even though we can.

As of today, we are depending on them because we can't.

We are still 20-30 years away from being a fully indigenous country. Until then we have to keep depending on foreign sources for a lot of crucial requirements.
If China can do it, then I don't see why India can't. I honestly can't figure out what's holding India back...

And three decades is totally unacceptable.
 

p2prada

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If China can do it, then I don't see why India can't. I honestly can't figure out what's holding India back...
They do have much larger indigenous programs which developed over a much greater time period than Indian programs. So they are reaping the benefits now. In some areas they are at par with us, some areas they are ahead by 10 years and some others they are ahead by 20.

Both India and China are overhyped as military industrial powers anyway. Still China has the capacity to improve at a much greater rate.

Nothing's holding India back in the strictest sense. These things simply take time and money.

The US did not become a superpower in a few years. They worked 30 years for it and decades consolidating it. Compared to that both China and India are relatively young countries with far greater problems.

To give you a proper comparison, today China is exactly where the US was during WW2 and India is where the US was during WW1.

And three decades is totally unacceptable.
Need to suck it up and live with it. That's a fact.

It will take both China and India at least five decades to match the US militarily, especially the Navy. China would be a bit faster than India in modernization.
 

ersakthivel

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If China can do it, then I don't see why India can't. I honestly can't figure out what's holding India back...

And three decades is totally unacceptable.
china does it because the west is not offering cutting edge tech to it. So they are doing it on their own and reaping the benefits. And their army and airforce are not succumbing to the desease of asking everything they see in Jane's defence weekly after the project is through mid way. Their military accepts the indigenous products with original design specs and improvement is done in phases.

In india defence import deals are very lucrative.So the itch is always to buy abroad and walk away with huge bribes. that is why even good products that were developed according to original requirements by the user are not ordered in feasible quantities.But foriegn equipments with so many defects that are not customized for Indian environment are blindly bought in huge quantities.

Take T-90 the trial was conducted in Russia , not in Indian desert conditions.A huge quantity runnning into thousands is ordered knowing fully well , the tank will need heavy customization for desert condition. But even after the successful completion of gruelling trials for ARJUN MBT in Indian desert condition only 124 is ordered.

take the case of FGFA. It is touted as joint R &D effort. But the design was frozen even before India entered into joint venture with no design work share for HAL.net result we paid billions of dollars in advance and commited another 20 billion dollars to afighter whose stealth RCS won't match the one of F-22 which entered production 20 years before FGFA. SO what is the hurry to pay so much in advance?

The comedy is in critical ballistic missiles , anti ballistic missile defence system, SLBM carrying nuclear submarine and in many more civilian nuclear fields where the western nations impose heavy technological sanctions , all the technology is developed here in India. But when it comes to tanks and fighters , it is not the case.

The officialdom never backs this programs wholeheartedly. they will rather see them fail than commit resource to it.Thats why a country that has 100 space launches to its credit is simply struggling to induct a main battle tank of it's own, even though it ranks among the best in the world. The fig leaf is we don't have the support structure in place. We are ready to import 20 billion dollar worth of RAFALE and another 20 billion dollar worth of FGFA and create all the support structures for them.

But we won't create support structures for a superior MBT ARJUN because it is a local product and no hefty commission is on offer.When LCA project is delayed people criticize ADA severely even without knowing when the funds were released for two tech demos,but the IAF has taken a long seven year time to freeze the specs for AMCA.

If at all a twin engined 4.5th gen fighter development was initiated side by side along with tejas LCA in the 1990s we need not buy RAFALE now.But no one took any steps towards that end even though they knew fully well India will need a lot of twin engined fighters in 2010.

If the original ASR was frozen in 2003 a tet flight will be arond the corner in 2015 just seven years after J-20. But since the ASR finalization has taken a sweet seven year time frame and funds were released only last year the first flight will be delayed by seven years.

China is ahead of india because whether it be J-10 or J-20 or type-99 they are going to induct the first tranch with original specs and will go for improvement only later in tranches. This way they save tens of billions in foreign exchange and plough them back into local R&D.

I don't believe that it will take 30 years for India to match a F-22 and LEO or Abrams if proper steps are taken in time. When Philips and Siemens were household names whoever heard of the names like NOKIA and SAMSUNG?Now after 20 years are Philips and Siemens leading these two new giants with the same tech gap?

Much worse than that midway during the project people will change the ASR once again to make it even more delayed.
 
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Crusader53

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china does it because the west is not offering cutting edge tech to it. So they are doing it on their own and reaping the benefits. And their army and airforce are not succumbing to the desease of asking everything they see in Jane's defence weekly after the project is through mid way. Their military accepts the indigenous products with original design specs and improvement is done in phases.

In india defence import deals are very lucrative.So the itch is always to buy abroad and walk away with huge bribes. that is why even good products that were developed according to original requirements by the user are not ordered in feasible quantities.But foriegn equipments with so many defects that are not customized for Indian environment are blindly bought in huge quantities.

Take T-90 the trial was conducted in Russia , not in Indian desert conditions.A huge quantity runnning into thousands is ordered knowing fully well , the tank will need heavy customization for desert condition. But even after the successful completion of gruelling trials for ARJUN MBT in Indian desert condition only 124 is ordered.

take the case of FGFA. It is touted as joint R &D effort. But the design was frozen even before India entered into joint venture with no design work share for HAL.net result we paid billions of dollars in advance and commited another 20 billion dollars to afighter whose stealth RCS won't match the one of F-22 which entered production 20 years before FGFA. SO what is the hurry to pay so much in advance?

The comedy is in critical ballistic missiles , anti ballistic missile defence system, SLBM carrying nuclear submarine and in many more civilian nuclear fields where the western nations impose heavy technological sanctions , all the technology is developed here in India. But when it comes to tanks and fighters , it is not the case.

The officialdom never backs this programs wholeheartedly. they will rather see them fail than commit resource to it.Thats why a country that has 100 space launches to its credit is simply struggling to induct a main battle tank of it's own, even though it ranks among the best in the world. The fig leaf is we don't have the support structure in place. We are ready to import 20 billion dollar worth of RAFALE and another 20 billion dollar worth of FGFA and create all the support structures for them.

But we won't create support structures for a superior MBT ARJUN because it is a local product and no hefty commission is on offer.When LCA project is delayed people criticize ADA severely even without knowing when the funds were released for two tech demos,but the IAF has taken a long seven year time to freeze the specs for AMCA.

If at all a twin engined 4.5th gen fighter development was initiated side by side along with tejas LCA in the 1990s we need not buy RAFALE now.But no one took any steps towards that end even though they knew fully well India will need a lot of twin engined fighters in 2010.

If the original ASR was frozen in 2003 a tet flight will be arond the corner in 2015 just seven years after J-20. But since the ASR finalization has taken a sweet seven year time frame and funds were released only last year the first flight will be delayed by seven years.

China is ahead of india because whether it be J-10 or J-20 or type-99 they are going to induct the first tranch with original specs and will go for improvement only later in tranches. This way they save tens of billions in foreign exchange and plough them back into local R&D.

I don't believe that it will take 30 years for India to match a F-22 and LEO or Abrams if proper steps are taken in time. When Philips and Siemens were household names whoever heard of the names like NOKIA and SAMSUNG?Now after 20 years are Philips and Siemens leading these two new giants with the same tech gap?

Much worse than that midway during the project people will change the ASR once again to make it even more delayed.

Which, is why I have said India should forget the MMRCA. (i.e. Rafale). In my personal opinion I think India should cancel the former. Then in the Short-Term continue with the LCA MKII. Which, would mainly be twin seat models for the IAF and Indian Navy used as Advance Trainers. With a secondary role as a light strike fighter. The main fleet would comprise FGFA's in Air Superiority and F-35's in Strike Missions. I would also place F-35's on India's New Carriers. Pushing the Mig-29K's to the Air Force until the F-35's could replace the other Mirage 2000's and older Mig-29A's.

Finally, after the FGFA and F-35 enter service and settle down. India could partner with Russia or a Western Country to jointly develop the AMCA or whatever they call it. From the ground floor not like the PAK-FA. Which, was a Russian Design frozen before India ever joined the program.
 

Libertarian

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They do have much larger indigenous programs which developed over a much greater time period than Indian programs. So they are reaping the benefits now. In some areas they are at par with us, some areas they are ahead by 10 years and some others they are ahead by 20.
You make it sound as if India had no choice, when the reality of it all is that- India is in the position she is, because of a lack of initiative taken, because of a lack of strategic foresight and because of faulty leadership. But all of this is still our doing. Blaming others or blaming the system or circumstances is a pathetic attempt at bending the truth. Fact is, had India been serious about closing the gap in technology (as-well as serious in other areas such as poverty, corruption, nepotism, population control, etc..), the situation would certainly have been different and India might have been on par or even ahead of China.


Both India and China are overhyped as military industrial powers anyway. Still China has the capacity to improve at a much greater rate.
The Chinese defense establishment does not suffer from bureaucratic lag, the way India does and they also make a bigger effort by throwing more money at it. China had several Combat Aircraft development projects running (JF-17, J-10 and J-20), while India was/is content taking baby steps with the LCA. Even so, the J-10 isn't noticeably more advanced than the Tejas- it just has a different mission profile. Incompetent as they are, the DRDO is fully capable of making a bigger, heavier version of the Tejas (a counterpart, if you will, to the J-10).

Where a gap truly exists, is the strategic Ballistic Missile technology of India and China. The Chinese have had ICBM's (true Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles- unlike the short legged quasi-ICBM- Agni V) for some time now, while Indian development of such missiles have been at snails pace. Even Agni VI will supposedly add a 500 Km range increment to its predecessor- which is silly. I really don't understand why India is lagging in this particular area.


To give you a proper comparison, today China is exactly where the US was during WW2 and India is where the US was during WW1.
Not really. World War I era technology is a century old. Even India isn't that far behind.

We are ready to import 20 billion dollar worth of RAFALE and another 20 billion dollar worth of FGFA and create all the support structures for them.

But we won't create support structures for a superior MBT ARJUN because it is a local product and no hefty commission is on offer.When LCA project is delayed people criticize ADA severely even without knowing when the funds were released for two tech demos,but the IAF has taken a long seven year time to freeze the specs for AMCA.

If at all a twin engined 4.5th gen fighter development was initiated side by side along with tejas LCA in the 1990s we need not buy RAFALE now.But no one took any steps towards that end even though they knew fully well India will need a lot of twin engined fighters in 2010.
^This is precisely what I meant when I claimed that the military planners in India are lacking in strategic foresight!
DRDO is fully capable of making a bigger, heavier, twin engine version of the LCA. Had they gone ahead with it (keep in mind the the LCA's first flight was in 2001 and no substantial changes have been made to the Tejas since then), then there would have been no need to purchase the Rafale. (This is what China did with the JF-17 and J-10 and it worked out perfectly for them.)
 
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