AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Kunal Biswas]

Features :

 

[lookieloo]

Features :...

In other words, an F-35~+, meaning it will weigh/cost at least as much. This project'll be fun to watch, like a state-school grad student who gets to write his thesis after spending two years of critiquing the works of ivy-league tenured professors.

 

[ersakthivel]

Once again there are some baseless views about LCA's weight is being aired here with no relation to the discussion on hand.
The weight increase of Tejas is due to the fact that IAF wanted longer range heavier air to air missiles for Tejas ,

With each missile weighing 100 plus kgs more than the shorter range lighter missiles of previous generation and tejas has to carry 6 air to air missiles (long and short range combined ) weight increase was inevitable.It was not a design mistake as it is made out to be rather it is due to the tunnel vision of IAF is the right reason.

Not only that these heavier missiles will separate from pylons at much higher speed thus more strengthening was needed on the wing section to cater to the impact loading. It is an open source information and posted many times on this forum.If anyone still harbors any doubts they can go to the following link and get them clarified.

http://www.hindu.com/2008/03/09/stories/2008030955051000.htm

Comments appeared in the media in 2001 quoting IAF sources to the effect that what the ADA had achieved was just a flying machine that was yet to be weaponised. Considering the nature and scope of the approval accorded in 1993, what else was to be expected? Using the money sanctioned for two TDAs, the ADA built four. Full-scale development, for which another Rs.2,000-plus crore was finally sanctioned, thus started only in late-2001. Some 1,200 hours of flight testing was to be undertaken to secure Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) from the IAF.

At that point, apart from the weaponisation requirements the project had to undergo extensive redesign to accommodate an air-to-air missile chosen by the IAF, which was considerably heavier and longer than what had been specified till 2000. The IAF had again changed its mind. This necessitated the complete redesign of the wing structure, using only composite materials in order to keep the weight within limits. The period of this redesign was also utilised to upgrade the avionics, to a completely open architecture.

Consequently, in "generational terms" the LCA is a fourth generation-plus aircraft with full networking capabilities. This made it more than comparable to anything the IAF had, and possibly would have, even after it acquires the 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) now on tender, with first deliveries due eight years hence.

If at all IAF had any vision for the future it could have asked the government to design a twin engined version of Tejas along the single engine version ,

After seeing the TDs the IAF should have had the vision to realize it's potential and asked ADA to design a twin engined variant along with the present one.If that decision was taken there would have been no need to shell out 20 billion dollars for the RAFALE deal and realization of AMCA too would have been much quicker.

Even for AMCA the IAF did not finalize it's requirements for the past seven years, knowing full well chinese are developing the J-20 and 31 and both of them will be sold to PAF.

They could have shown some vision and speed with which they changed the tender requirement for Agusta Westland helo deal
in finalizing the specs for AMCA .

 

[ersakthivel]

Mr. Parthasarathy was the Science Advisor in the Indira Gandhi government.

Vice-Admiral Raman Puri was Chief of Integrated Defence Staff to the Chairman, Committee of Service Chiefs, remaining closely involved with the inter-service weapons acquisition process from October 2003 to February 2006.

Since he was the top weapons procurement head for India as late as Feb. 2006, his is not just any other ordinary writer ,
what we read in the article is the "accurate analysis " of India's MMRCA procurement program, and not a simple opinion piece.

Thus, his statement that Tejas mk-1 is nearly equivalent to a Mirage-2000 holds 'unquestioning' authority, and is not a personal an opinion. He probably said that because he knows it is so, being privy to it in his official capacity.


He has detailed what the MRCA originally was, (Mirage-2000 upgrade) and what it eventually "developed into " .

 

[Libertarian]

Different configurations of AMCA

^Looks like the LCA and YF-23 had a baby together. It's very sleek looking. I like it.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

The wings surely looks like yf23 but the front looks like f22(in the video) and the rear section looks like pakfa.Seems amca designers are choosing the best aspect of various 5th gen designs rather than going for rediscovery of wheel which would take 10-15 years just to develop a prototype.Anyways someone can throw some light about the stealth aspect of round nozzles since f-22 and and f-35 have flat nozzles but pakfa and j20,j31 have round nozzles which they say will ensure grater thrust than american fighter engines.

 

[p2prada]

Anyways someone can throw some light about the stealth aspect of round nozzles since f-22 and and f-35 have flat nozzles but pakfa and j20,j31 have round nozzles which they say will ensure grater thrust than american fighter engines.

In the RF spectrum, round or flat doesn't make a difference. In the IR spectrum, it does, a little bit.

The reason F-35 is considered to be less stealthy than the F-22 from the rear hemisphere is because the F-22's engine is equipped with radar blocker while the F-35 isn't. Has nothing to do with the shape of the nozzles.

As for IR stealth, the greater the surface area of the nozzle, the greater is the dissipation of heat and lower is the IR signature. That's why a flat nozzle is better in this case. However there are various other methods to cool the exhaust, some we know and some we don't. An example would be to allow some of the inlet air to bypass the engine through a different area and release it along with the exhaust. Inlet air is cool and will mix with the exhaust gases to further cool it.

Most people forget that the SR-71 is a stealth aircraft, but has round nozzles.

It is silly to believe all stealth aircraft in the F-22 class should look like the F-22 to be stealthy.

 

[Somreet Bhattacharya]

Well, adding to that the flat nozzles work only when there is no afterburner on the F22

 

[p2prada]

In other words, an F-35~+, meaning it will weigh/cost at least as much.

I will repeat this. AMCA isn't in the F-35 weight class. It will be 3-4 tonnes lighter, more in the F-16 B60/Rafale weight class.

As for costs, it is subjective since labor costs in India is significantly cheaper.

This project'll be fun to watch, like a state-school grad student who gets to write his thesis after spending two years of critiquing the works of ivy-league tenured professors.

Don't know what makes you say that. No one in India has criticized the F-35 program, rather nobody has felt the need for criticizing it. In fact, IN sent a RFI to Lockheed Martin many years ago. It is merely good to know about the problems the program is facing along with the cost overruns.

Well, adding to that the flat nozzles work only when there is no afterburner on the F22

That's why the F-22 supercruises, without the use of afterburners.

 

[rahulrds1]

GTRE plans to develop engine for AMCA in collaboration with global engine house Dr. C P Ramanarayanan,Director , GTRE.

Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) is presently finalising the specification and technology requirement of a >100kN thrust class engine to be developed for the future twin engine powered Indian Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). This engine development programme and subsequent production will be pursued in collaboration with a reputed international engine house, says GTRE Director Dr. C P Ramanarayanan in this interview to Aeromag Asia.

Page No. 46 from the pdf by NAL(national aerospace laboratories)
http://www.nal.res.in/pdf/AM 1- 2013.pdf

further in the interview it is mentioned,

"the Kaveri dry engine is planned to be used as a power plant for an experimental autonomous air vehicle for disaster management. " ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If true it will be one unique platform in the world helping out people in disasters..

further in the interview it is mentioned,

"the Kaveri dry engine is planned to be used as a power plant for an experimental autonomous air vehicle for disaster management. " ?

 

[sayareakd]

"the Kaveri dry engine is planned to be used as a power plant for an experimental autonomous air vehicle for disaster management. " ?

quite a big experimental air vehicle...............if you consider UAV standards in Indian context.

 

[Libertarian]

In other words, an F-35~+, meaning it will weigh/cost at least as much. This project'll be fun to watch, like a state-school grad student who gets to write his thesis after spending two years of critiquing the works of ivy-league tenured professors.

I don't really consider DRDO incapable of developing the AMCA. The work involved really isn't out of their league and the only issue I foresee, is in the engine department. Other than that, AMCA is suppose to be a twin engined, stealthier version of the LCA.

 

[p2prada]

Other than that, AMCA is suppose to be a twin engined, stealthier version of the LCA.

Nope. Not even close. It's like saying the F-35 is a fatter version of the F-16.

Heck, they don't even look alike. Rather, the F-15 and F-22 look more alike and so does Su-27 and PAKFA, from some profiles, like the front view for PAKFA and the side view for F-22.

AMCA is a unique design as far as ADA is concerned. There's nothing on it that looks even remotely close to the LCA. From any angle.

Even the earliest MCA concepts did not look anything like LCA. Including the model released during AI-09. As a matter of fact, these models were all to do with fulfilling the strike role.

It is like trying to find similarities between Mirage-2000 and Rafale.

 

[Libertarian]

Nope. Not even close. It's like saying the F-35 is a fatter version of the F-16.

Heck, they don't even look alike. Rather, the F-15 and F-22 look more alike and so does Su-27 and PAKFA, from some profiles, like the front view for PAKFA and the side view for F-22.

AMCA is a unique design as far as ADA is concerned. There's nothing on it that looks even remotely close to the LCA. From any angle.

Even the earliest MCA concepts did not look anything like LCA. Including the model released during AI-09. As a matter of fact, these models were all to do with fulfilling the strike role.

It is like trying to find similarities between Mirage-2000 and Rafale.

No-one said that AMCA isn't a unique design, but the designers are not going to throw away everything they learned building the LCA and reinvent the wheel here. Also, as far as the design of the craft, the MCA model from early 2000 was a twin engine, tail-less version of the LCA:

Moreover, while the F-22 isn't exactly derived from the F-16, Russian Pak Fa does in-fact, give off Sukhoi-30 vibes and the same deal with J-10 and J-20.

 

[p2prada]

No-one said that AMCA isn't a unique design, but the designers are not going to throw away everything they learned building the LCA and reinvent the wheel here. Also, as far as the design of the craft, the MCA model from early 2000 was a twin engine, tail-less version of the LCA:

This was just one of the many designs and not the only one. It just hasn't been released for public consumption yet.

Moreover, while the F-22 isn't exactly derived from the F-16,

F-15, not the F-16. The F-22 clearly gives away a F-15 look.

 

[lookieloo]

I will repeat this. AMCA isn't in the F-35 weight class. It will be 3-4 tonnes lighter, more in the F-16 B60/Rafale weight class.

And I will repeat this: That is not physically possible given the requirements listed and the design-demands of internal weapons/fuel. If the payload requirements are kept to an absolute bare minimum (say, limited to a few A2A/light A2G weapons), I could see it MAYBE weighing slightly less than the F-35; but I'll be a monkey's uncle if the normal loaded weight is anything less than 40,000lbs (about 25% more than Rafale). Sorry, but F-35 capability comes with F-35 heft; it can't be conjured out of thin air.

 

[p2prada]

And I will repeat this: That is not physically possible given the requirements listed and the design-demands of internal weapons/fuel. If the payload requirements are kept to an absolute bare minimum (say, limited to a few A2A/light A2G weapons), I could see it MAYBE weighing slightly less than the F-35; but I'll be a monkey's uncle if the normal loaded weight is anything less than 40,000lbs (about 25% more than Rafale). Sorry, but F-35 capability comes with F-35 heft; it can't be conjured out of thin air.

Can you list out the math for what you assume is AMCA's requirements and compare it to the F-35's?

 

[lookieloo]

Can you list out the math for what you assume is AMCA's requirements and compare it to the F-35's?

Tell ya what... no math necessary; just watch the program. Remember, 40,000lbs normal-loaded-weight was my monkey's-uncle number; expect closer to 50,000lbs given all the features wanted by the IAF. The real fun will come when HAL goes to pick engines. If they are really planning to do better than the F-35, they're gonna need something about the size of an F414 that puts out ~25,000lbs of thrust. Of course, no such engine exists for the time being... though I suppose HAL could just step out on faith and hope one materializes.

 

[p2prada]

Tell ya what... no math necessary; just watch the program. Remember, 40,000lbs normal-loaded-weight was my monkey's-uncle number; expect closer to 50,000lbs given all the features wanted by the IAF. The real fun will come when HAL goes to pick engines. If they are really planning to do better than the F-35, they're gonna need something about the size of an F414 that puts out ~25,000lbs of thrust. Of course, no such engine exists for the time being... though I suppose HAL could just step out on faith and hope one materializes.

Right, no math is necessary.

And where did you get the figure for 40000lbs normal weight or even 50000lbs?

Do you even know what 40000lb and 50000lb equate to in Kilograms?

At best, can you list out the empty weight, normal weight and MTOW for both Rafale and F-35? Just finding these figures will answer your questions.