AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Rahul Singh]

I don't think the tech input that we can get from MKI will match the Rafales simply because of the massive advancement we will see in our production capabilities. MKI uses a very old form of production, France will bring in robotics. Something we currently don't have in a large scale.

Such capabilities will see direct results for future projects.

I won't comment on how much we will gain in terms of critical technology (say like SPECTRA - as we know it) because it will be early to say so. However entirely ruling out apprehensions is not possible because nobody hands over their golden key, especially one established seller whose future depends on our requirements, that apart from our previous experiences. I just leave it to this.

With regard to manufacturing. Well, yes, Rafale deal would teach us better manufacturing methodology than one in practice ( it just disgusts me when i see HAL still practicing static assembly line concept) . This however not to say that this is only option. Considering how much we are buying from Boeing, if we want, then we can make Boeing teach advance aircraft assembly skills as part of offset requirements. And since SMITH aerospace (now owned by GE) is biggest suppler of pre-fabricated and pre-assembly structure for Boeing products it is obvious to say it will too be asked for teaching us advance manufacturing skills.

Now, since we have already conveyed loud and clear to whole world that we won't buy fighters ordered in bulk in fly away condition, i see no reason for reluctance on part of Boeing or any.

Moreover, from what i am aware of, automated crafting and assembling machines popularly referred to as industrial robots are still limited to fabrication of parts besides having limited foot prints in assembling when we talk about manufacturing of combat aircraft. Nevertheless, we don't have them (at HAL, private players already have these in some form as we speak) and need them asap. I believe once we have upgraded our knowledge about advance manufacturing, we can source these robots as custom build products from Japan anytime we want.

As for Rafele. Well, If we cancel Rafale deal and order 126 plus SU-30 S30s, then ideally HAL will take the role of final assembler while private players like Mahindra Aerospace and TATA ADVANCED SYSTEMS shall undertake works like parts fabrication and sub- assembly.

This way not only IAF will get fillers far quickly but our industry will also advance to a stage where they can confidently take on future challenges and complete them efficiently. That apart from fact that saved money would then go towards futuristic projects instead of french R&D depository.

 

[p2prada]

With regard to manufacturing. Well, yes, Rafale deal would teach us better manufacturing methodology than one in practice ( it just disgusts me when i see HAL still practicing static assembly line concept) . This however not to say that this is only option. Considering how much we are buying from Boeing, if we want, then we can make Boeing teach advance aircraft assembly skills as part of offset requirements. And since SMITH aerospace (now owned by GE) is biggest suppler of pre-fabricated and pre-assembly structure for Boeing products it is obvious to say it will too be asked for teaching us advance manufacturing skills.

Why would anybody "teach" us how to manufacture?

It's different coming from a 126 aircraft fighter deal. But the only way to create new manufacturing techniques is to first order something to create it.

As for Rafele. Well, If we cancel Rafale deal and order 126 plus SU-30 S30s, then ideally HAL will take the role of final assembler while private players like Mahindra Aerospace and TATA ADVANCED SYSTEMS shall undertake works like parts fabrication and sub- assembly.

If you are looking for new manufacturing techniques, then Su-30 won't do. It is ancient

 

[Apollyon]

I don't think the tech input that we can get from MKI will match the Rafales simply because of the massive advancement we will see in our production capabilities. MKI uses a very old form of production, France will bring in robotics. Something we currently don't have in a large scale.

I think the correct word should be Automation in Manufacturing and Process Control.
Even though we might be just a generation behind the leader in Fighter Aircraft Technology but the gap between manufacturing tech is easily 2 generations and that's what have held us back even in Shipbuilding.

 

[Crusader53]

Have to disagree with you there. There's no way India would get the ToT/offset deals with the F-35A that they got with the Rafale (and are likely to get with FGFA). The days of India buying a large number of fighters straight from someone else's factory are over. As for lower volumes...

I never said India would get a better TOT/offset deal with the F-35A as it will with the Rafale. Yet, the latter will be vastly outclassed by several 5th Generation Types entering service in the first half of the next decade. So, what is it gaining? In addition while it is important for India to gain technology and develop its own Defense Industry. Nonetheless, it can't forget that it must have the capability to defend itself until he can produce equipment at least equal to contemporaries.


In my opinion as I have stated before. I think India should purchase 5th Generation Designs for the US and Russia. Which, would compete against each other to give India the best deal. They would also provide India with unmatched Air Superiority and Strike Aircraft that China cannot likely counter. Then India can focus not a 5th Generation Type but leap frog to a 6th Generation. Which, India could get in on the ground floor.


What I see is India spending vast resources on a 4.5 Generation Strike Fighter that will be outclassed in another 10-15 years. Then developing a 5th Generation Fighter that will again be behind its contemporaries with it enters service in another 20-25 years.

Remember, Europe countered 4th Generation Types (F-15's, F-16's, Mig-29's, Su-27's, etc. etc.) with the Typhoon, Rafale, and Gripen. (i.e. 4.5 Gen) While, the US and Russia leaped frogged with 5th Generation Fighters.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Isn't this AMCA thread ?

I never said India would get a better TOT/offset deal with the F-35A as it will with the Rafale. Yet, the latter will be vastly outclassed by several 5th Generation Types entering service in the first half of the next decade. So, what is it gaining? In addition while it is important for India to gain technology and develop its own Defense Industry. Nonetheless, it can't forget that it must have the capability to defend itself until he can produce equipment at least equal to contemporaries.


In my opinion as I have stated before. I think India should purchase 5th Generation Designs for the US and Russia. Which, would compete against each other to give India the best deal. They would also provide India with unmatched Air Superiority and Strike Aircraft that China cannot likely counter. Then India can focus not a 5th Generation Type but leap frog to a 6th Generation. Which, India could get in on the ground floor.


What I see is India spending vast resources on a 4.5 Generation Strike Fighter that will be outclassed in another 10-15 years. Then developing a 5th Generation Fighter that will again be behind its contemporaries with it enters service in another 20-25 years.

Remember, Europe countered 4th Generation Types (F-15's, F-16's, Mig-29's, Su-27's, etc. etc.) with the Typhoon, Rafale, and Gripen. (i.e. 4.5 Gen) While, the US and Russia leaped frogged with 5th Generation Fighters.

 

[Patriot]

Isn't this AMCA thread ?

This bugger will never listen except his F-35 rant in each & every thread.

 

[lookieloo]

Isn't this AMCA thread ?

On that matter, what is this thing supposed to weigh? The Wiki numbers seem unrealistically light, bent as it were to give a loaded T2W ratio in excess of 1:1 with just ~40,000lbs of thrust total. Getting that much power from two engines doesn't provide the same weight margin as the same thrust from just one; so HAL either needs to go to a single engine design (using the *super-duper* Saturn that Russia is promising for the FGFA), or they need to find engines that can put out ~50,000lbs per pair (like GE's notional EPE design). All the other powerplants I can think of would either necessitate a much larger design (negating weight advantage), or don't offer supercruise.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

One must request to erase such details as AMCA is in development stage and no info is yet given except its architecture..

On that matter, what is this thing supposed to weigh? The Wiki numbers seem unrealistically light, bent as it were to give a loaded T2W ratio in excess of 1:1 with just ~40,000lbs of thrust total. Getting that much power from two engines doesn't provide the same weight margin as the same thrust from just one; so HAL either needs to go to a single engine design (using the *super-duper* Saturn that Russia is promising for the FGFA), or they need to find engines that can put out ~50,000lbs per pair (like GE's notional EPE design). All the other powerplants I can think of would either necessitate a much larger design (negating weight advantage), or don't offer supercruise.

 

[WMD]

One must request to erase such details as AMCA is in development stage and no info is yet given except its architecture..

this pic doesn't say anything abt a2g missiles, just smart munitions,
what abt its a2g missile capability?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You can have variety of A2G missiles, LGB, GPS bombs etc falls in A2G munition..

You can place Russian / Isreali / US A2G missiles just like LCA can do with KH-59, IAI Popeye and so on..

this pic doesn't say anything abt a2g missiles, just smart munitions,what abt its a2g missile capability?

 

[nrj]

this pic doesn't say anything abt a2g missiles, just smart munitions,
what abt its a2g missile capability?

We don't know the specific missiles for AMCA yet. But I guess Nirbhay will make its way on AMCA and maybe brahmos (in few units carried externally ofcourse).

Armament config really depends on how much share engine itself is going to consume out of weight restriction not to exceed 20tons. Advanced material lab is up for a biggest challenge here.

 

[lookieloo]

One must request to erase such details as AMCA is in development stage and no info is yet given except its architecture..

Meeting that wish-list of features you posted is going to result in something rather larger than "medium."

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If you call KH-59 & IAI Popeye large, then what one should call PJ-10 and Nirbhay as NRJ suggested ?

Meeting that wish-list of features you posted is going to result in something rather larger than "medium."

 

[lookieloo]

If you call KH-59 & IAI Popeye large, then what one should call PJ-10 and Nirbhay as NRJ suggested ?

What's with the list of missiles? You've lost me.

 

[p2prada]

On that matter, what is this thing supposed to weigh? The Wiki numbers seem unrealistically light, bent as it were to give a loaded T2W ratio in excess of 1:1 with just ~40,000lbs of thrust total. Getting that much power from two engines doesn't provide the same weight margin as the same thrust from just one; so HAL either needs to go to a single engine design (using the *super-duper* Saturn that Russia is promising for the FGFA), or they need to find engines that can put out ~50,000lbs per pair (like GE's notional EPE design). All the other powerplants I can think of would either necessitate a much larger design (negating weight advantage), or don't offer supercruise.

It should be between F-16 Block 60 and Rafale weight class.

ADA revealed info that the AMCA will have 4 tonnes of fuel, 2 tonnes of internal weapons capacity and a MTOW that is around 18 tonnes. Of course, empty weight will be a secret until the program matures to a certain level.

A new engine development program will be undertaken with a foreign partner in a JV. At first we planned on getting it done through France. But GTRE decided to release a tender instead. So we can expect a new engine development tender pretty soon.

Should be powered by at least 2 90KN powerplants, but it is yet to be seen.

You can say it is of the F-16 Block 60 weight class but with thrust that matches the Super Hornet.

Super-duper Item 30 won't be possible for AMCA. While the engine alone is supposed to weigh around 1000 Kg (estimated from claims that it is 30% lighter than 117), the other dimensions won't match and will be too big. That's why it is super-duper. Other engines like F-135 and F-119 are above 1700 Kg.

 

[lookieloo]

It should be between F-16 Block 60 and Rafale weight class.

Oh my god...........are they planning to make it out of mithril?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Then use this :

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What's with the list of missiles? You've lost me.

 

[lookieloo]

Then use this :

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But I neither said nor asked anything about missiles.

 

[Crusader53]

Isn't this AMCA thread ?

Sorry, I forgot to include AMCA. When I was speaking about leap frogging from a 5th to 6th Generation Fighter. Which, I will correct,

 

[Crusader53]

This bugger will never listen except his F-35 rant in each & every thread.

I think it's you that is not listening.


Respectfully