AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[p2prada]

^^^ That's why i questioned ex ACM's words.

The Russians are expecting the PAKFA to replace all their medium and heavy aircraft with just one type.

We obviously don't know much about PAKFA to comment about it, maybe Major can since he knows something we don't.

See we already have USAV project up and running, so i guess if ex ACM had any such intention he could have said "With the USAV in pipeline, the need for AMCA is debatable".

To me it would have made more sense (with regard to your conclusion/assessment) because AMCA is being developed primarily for strike missions/requirements and USAV is being developed specifically for strike requirements.

AMCA has moved from strike aircraft to an air superiority aircraft. The diamond-delta wing shape conforms to the change for an agile air superiority aircraft rather than a low flying striker. It helps reduce drag at speeds over mach 1. Apart from that we need to see the level of wing loading to determine if it will be dedicated to air superiority or strike needs or something in between, like Rafale/MKI. Higher the wing loading, higher is the chance it is designed F-35 style. For me it is something like Rafale/MKI, low wing loading with excellent slow speed capabilities.

USAV is a tiny thing compared to AMCA. USAV is feasible by the end of the decade, but a 6th gen AMCA is something we can look forward to only beginning from the end of the decade.

If the AMCA ends up being the same as PMF, only a little bit lighter, then it won't form part of the lo-hi complement since the flight profiles will end up being the same with just minor differences in endurance, altitude and some other capabilities.

It will be like the Mig-21 to the MKI or Mig-27 to the Jaguar, rather than MKI to the Jaguar.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I am going to leave some points :

1. Russia haven't shown any other 5th generation fighter apart form PAK-FA but that doesn't mean they wont, Russia always had 5th generation MIG in sight and in future they will come up with that, Just like US too using F-22 as well as F-35 in combo & China following the same suit, India is doing just fine with FGFA /PMF and AMCA..

2. In recent days Rafale CAS shown very precious bombing needless to go at very low altitude in that sense AMCA wing design does not effect its capability to provide CAS /SEAD etc..

3. 6th Gen UACV will be working with 5.5gen / 6th generation fighters, It will take more time may be another 50 years after 6th generation fighter to have dedicated self aware AI commanding UACV of different task, that is still very sketchy..

 

[p2prada]

Russia has only two planned 5th gen aircraft. PAKFA and a 5th gen Su-25 replacement.

No LMFS. All of Migs new designs were canceled. Only Mig-35 and Mig-29K are active as of today. Even MiG SKAT was canceled and work was transferred to Sukhoi.

Rafale conducted bombing from low altitude. Low altitude flight is necessary in order to identify and track targets apart from evading radar.

But, yeah, we may be comfortable with PMF/AMCA development. It would be nice if ADA thinks ahead, but more realistically, this time and incorporates more automation and integration than what will be available a few years from now, since we want the aircraft a decade after that.

Avionics have a very short shelf life.

 

[p2prada]

Perhaps a new aircraft project will happen for 6th gen fighters after 2020 for service after 2035, apart from the 5th gen AMCA. Most likely for strike requirements.

 

[Crusader53]

Which, is why I think India should scrap the Rafale and instead purchase the PAK-FA and F-35 in the short-term. Then India can partner with one of the latter and jointly design and build a New 6th Generation Fighter.

 

[p2prada]

Which, is why I think India should scrap the Rafale and instead purchase the PAK-FA and F-35 in the short-term. Then India can partner with one of the latter and jointly design and build a New 6th Generation Fighter.

The F-35 was supposedly rejected, after internal studies, in favor of the PMF. US and India are not so comfortable as to engage in a joint development effort of such scale.

F-35 isn't short term. It will most probably be available to India by the middle of the next decade. By then we will already have all 126 Rafales.

If we are to buy F-35s in place of Rafale or PMF, then forget it. There is ZERO chance today for the F-35 to see service in the IAF. We already have 5 major projects running now, no need to add a 6th.

If F-35s are offered for the naval tender, then yeah, it is a possibility.

 

[Rahul Singh]

There is no definitive picture of 6th generation combat aircraft, from what i can see.

To me next generation UCAVs are ideal candidates for 6 generation designation. And USAV MK-X will be our candidate in that league.

It is only logical to say the level of automation will be considerably higher/advance or at least contemporary, no matter whenever or on whichever date AMCA enters service.

Putting question on need for AMCA* with regard to induction of FGFA is sheer rediculation of IAF logic for putting requirement for M-MRCAs despite having option of buying new Sukhois (Super 30) in whatever quantity it needs them.

* Even if AMCA will be lighter analog of PMFA (though it will go same distance with lesser payload or lift same payload for lesser distance) its requirement is only logical as per IAF M-MRCA logic. So to me ex ACM words are either speaking of change in IAF's stand or he is being hypocritical. Won't speak of latter but if the case is former then IAF is rediculating its own logic despite not having inducted even first example.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Ok guys, you carry on, i am out again. Happy discussions!

Which, is why I think India should scrap the Rafale and instead purchase the PAK-FA and F-35 in the short-term. Then India can partner with one of the latter and jointly design and build a New 6th Generation Fighter.

If we scrap Rafale then we will either buy more PAK-FA or more SU-30S30s or both of them in varying quantity. F-35 fits no where considering what our needs are and what plans we have in action. Only chance for F-35 is cancellation AMCA which is not going to happen because we have to take our capability forward and especially not repeat the mistake of not carrying forward work beyond HF-24. That's more or less a fact.

 

[ersakthivel]

first of all we should know what is the RCS of FGFA of PAKFA, if it is more than F-22 and J-20 then IAF should reject it outright,

and ask SUKHOI to deliver a more stealthier version for the 20 billion dollar indian tax payer money that is going to be funneled into it's bank accounts.

it is useless to introduce a so called 5th gen stealth fighter that has more RCS than what chinese J-20 and J-31,

Because with improvement in all bands of ASEA radar tech, a beach ball sized RCS of FGFA won't be of much use to be called as true blue 5th gen fighter,

This point is often glossed over, we are not buying PAKFA to have a compromise of super agility and stealth,

if FGFA is going to have a bigger RCS than AMCA , then what will be india's premier fighter?

 

[WMD]

Stealth Air superiority configuration of the Indian Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) with 3x Beyond Visual Range Air to Air Missile (BVRAAMs) and 4x Short Range Air Air Missile (SRAAM)

Stealth ground attack superiority configuration of the Indian Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)

Non-Stealth weapon configuration of the Indian Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)

Weapon Configurations of Indian Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft ~ Global Military Review

 

[lookieloo]

Which, is why I think India should scrap the Rafale and instead purchase the PAK-FA and F-35 in the short-term.

Have to disagree with you there. There's no way India would get the ToT/offset deals with the F-35A that they got with the Rafale (and are likely to get with FGFA). The days of India buying a large number of fighters straight from someone else's factory are over. As for lower volumes...

 

[p2prada]

Putting question on need for AMCA* with regard to induction of FGFA is sheer rediculation of IAF logic for putting requirement for M-MRCAs despite having option of buying new Sukhois (Super 30) in whatever quantity it needs them.

IAF was looking at technology from the MRCA deal. It was just delayed for so long that the MKI will end up coming at similar levels.

* Even if AMCA will be lighter analog of PMFA (though it will go same distance with lesser payload or lift same payload for lesser distance) its requirement is only logical as per IAF M-MRCA logic. So to me ex ACM words are either speaking of change in IAF's stand or he is being hypocritical. Won't speak of latter but if the case is former then IAF is rediculating its own logic despite not having inducted even first example.

I doubt AMCA will go the same distance. Even DRDO's brochure puts the AMCA at medium range. I don't know if you remember, but there was a picture released with LCA, AMCA and FGFA dropping stuff at different ranges. Gave 300Km for LCA, 600Km for AMCA and 1000+ for FGFA, IIRC, or something of this sort.

Anyway, there may be a major change in perceptions within armed force personnel. Have a look at @Decklander 's post in the INS Vishal thread.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...al-iac-ii-aircraft-carrier-11.html#post682544

Pls understand that whatever is atmosphere bound is going to be history soon. We need to put money in space based weapons now to reap the rewards. Stealth etc are going to be obselete in next 15-20 yrs.

We might have to start working on new propulsion technologies for the future in order to breach the atmosphere, at least looking at his post.

We may not know everything, but there is a chance AMCA may also become obsolete along with other birds that we call modern today, by the time it is inducted.

 

[p2prada]

Have to disagree with you there. There's no way India would get the ToT/offset deals with the F-35A that they got with the Rafale (and are likely to get with FGFA). The days of India buying a large number of fighters straight from someone else's factory are over. As for lower volumes...

IAF has always assembled aircraft at home. This is true for a lot of aircraft that we purchased.

But, the work carried out will be much more from here on out.

In the future it will be JVs or own projects, depending on funding and technological capability.

 

[JAISWAL]

Different configurations of AMCA

 

[ersakthivel]

If amca is obsolete, by the same token each and every single so called 5th gen stealth will be obsolete in 2030.

Because none of them are going to exceed the AMCA in stealth ,or payload in stealth mode ,or TWR ,in any significant margin.
A light to medium weight nimble fighter with robust stealth and TWR is not going to go out of fashion so soon.

Since it is going to be made in India according to IAF's specific needs , it will suit indian theater of combat more with high number of fighter due to the low locally manufacture cost.

By 2030 I think India will also get closer to the west in engine tech, even if Indian Engines are a bit low in TWR than western ones the lesser weight lesser range AMCA will still compensate for this sight lag in engine tech enabling AMCA to stand shoulder to shoulder with other 5th gen stealth fighters.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

amca is a good project for indian establishment but it should have started 5-7 years ago.anyhow i don't think there will be any 6th gen fighter at least by 2040 and 6th gen would mean ucavs with high degree of automy.as far as manned fighter goes these will be the last generation and in the next 20-30 years we will see more refined versions of these fifth gen planes with future electronics.

 

[Rahul Singh]

IAF was looking at technology from the MRCA deal. It was just delayed for so long that the MKI will end up coming at similar levels.

Well delays in our system is like choli daaman. Anyway, if we are not gaining technology, significantly, from this MMRCA program (which i seriously doubt) then we will make complete mockery of ourselves by buying a X-times costly hardware in place of tried and tested and almost perfected 1/x times cheaper alternative for requirement which as now is nothing more than of 'filler'. Even more so because saved money would have then gone to more important programs like FGFA and AMCA together or just FGFA if IAF decides to standardize on just one platform.

IMO there is no point in loosing money just because we think we can't be politically bold. Cancelling Rafale, buying more Sukhois and re-assigning allocated budget to futuristic programs would probably be bold and only sensible decision.

I doubt AMCA will go the same distance. Even DRDO's brochure puts the AMCA at medium range. I don't know if you remember, but there was a picture released with LCA, AMCA and FGFA dropping stuff at different ranges. Gave 300Km for LCA, 600Km for AMCA and 1000+ for FGFA, IIRC, or something of this sort.

Although not much conclusive is known about AMCA, but there is general perception that it will be a 20-22 ton MTOW fighter. Considering expected MTOW in equation, i seriously doubt AMCA will have just 600 radius even at MTOW. It just don't make any sense.

Anyway, there may be a major change in perceptions within armed force personnel. Have a look at @Decklander 's post in the INS Vishal thread.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...al-iac-ii-aircraft-carrier-11.html#post682544

I would when time permits. But for now i guess* it has something to do with 'standardization' (on one type)? Well i can't say much, IAF is best placed to frame up doctrines. That said, i don't get why IAF would change philosophy and yet stick with at same time?

*If my guessing is wrong just discard what i said.

 

[Rahul Singh]

first of all we should know what is the RCS of FGFA of PAKFA, if it is more than F-22 and J-20 then IAF should reject it outright,

and ask SUKHOI to deliver a more stealthier version for the 20 billion dollar indian tax payer money that is going to be funneled into it's bank accounts.

it is useless to introduce a so called 5th gen stealth fighter that has more RCS than what chinese J-20 and J-31,

Because with improvement in all bands of ASEA radar tech, a beach ball sized RCS of FGFA won't be of much use to be called as true blue 5th gen fighter,

This point is often glossed over, we are not buying PAKFA to have a compromise of super agility and stealth,

if FGFA is going to have a bigger RCS than AMCA , then what will be india's premier fighter?

Wild assumption. PAK-FA or FGFA is a honey trap and is to yield money for working on originally planned fifth generation fighter for Russian Air Force!

Frankly why just Russia, no one would sell us equally capable fifth generation fighter. The only way to having any equivalent system is developing one ourselves.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Anyway, there may be a major change in perceptions within armed force personnel. Have a look at @Decklander 's post in the INS Vishal thread.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...al-iac-ii-aircraft-carrier-11.html#post682544

Space travelling fighters.

Well I can't say much about it. But i do believe, it will be bit exaggeration to say endo-atmospheric fighters will have lived past their life starting 2030. From what i see, US is the only operator of fifth generation fighter with rest of the world being 5-10 years away from catching it.

However it is entirely other thing that both DRDO and ISRO is conceptualizing even developing sub-systems for such flying objects. And i am saying so because their is lot of hike to be scaled. Even an UCAV like 'UCAV 'Tin Man' EDI' (from movie Stealth and minus artificial intelligence) is a bit distant dream.

 

[p2prada]

IMO there is no point in loosing money just because we think we can't be politically bold. Cancelling Rafale, buying more Sukhois and re-assigning allocated budget to futuristic programs would probably be bold and only sensible decision.

I don't think the tech input that we can get from MKI will match the Rafales simply because of the massive advancement we will see in our production capabilities. MKI uses a very old form of production, France will bring in robotics. Something we currently don't have in a large scale.

Such capabilities will see direct results for future projects.

Although not much conclusive is known about AMCA, but there is general perception that it will be a 20-22 ton MTOW fighter. Considering expected MTOW in equation, i seriously doubt AMCA will have just 600 radius even at MTOW. It just don't make any sense.

I don't support that view either. It was an amateurish attempt on their part.