AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Novice]

What does the 4th feature mean? Does that give us any clue about engine?

 

[sasi]

Livefist: VIDEO: Official Promo Film On India's AMCA Fighter Concept

 

[A chauhan]

The reality is if we don't start the work on the K-10 now or start negotiations for a suitable engine for AMCA then this project will also be delayed by at least 3-4 years.

 

[Payeng]

What does the 4th feature mean? Does that give us any clue about engine?

If you mean the Super Maneuverability and Thrust vectoring feature, they helps when a BVR engagement do not occur/fails and close combat happens, it is termed as dog fight. Super maneuverability is attained through improved aerodynamic design such as the reverse sweep like wing design and vectoring the engine thrust in a desired/ diverted direction with the help of flexi nozzle type engine exhaust end, which is termed as Thrust Vector.

Close combat/Dog fight scenario demand highly agile and high maneuverable fighter jets so the fourth feature.

Another thing related to this is High Thrust to weight ratio of the fighter, this is not mentioned in the list but is a vital requirement for a fighter jet agility.


Regarding the engine, I think the factor of super cruise gives some clue about the engine specification

 

[Defcon 1]

AERO INDIA: Advanced medium combat aircraft first flight likely in 2020

New Delhi has adopted a go-slow approach for its planned Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), which is in the early stages of being designed by India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).

"We plan on finalising the configuration by 2018, with a first flight in 2020," says an ADA representative. "The AMCA will draw from what we learn with the [Hindustan Aeronautics-built] Tejas MkI and Tejas MkII."

The 20t AMCA is envisaged as a twin-engined fighter with similar stealth characteristics to the Lockheed Martin F-35. For the first time, the ADA displayed a model of the proposed design for the future fighter at the Aero India show. Outwardly, the aircraft resembles the F-35, with twin canted tails and shaping optimised for low observability.

It will be powered by a future variant of the indigenously developed Gas Turbine Research Establishment Kaveri engine. The Kaveri was originally intended as the powerplant for the Tejas, but was detached from the programme owing to weight and performance issues.

AERO INDIA: Advanced medium combat aircraft first flight likely in 2020

 

[A chauhan]

AERO INDIA: Advanced medium combat aircraft first flight likely in 2020

New Delhi has adopted a go-slow approach for its planned Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), which is in the early stages of being designed by India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).

"We plan on finalising the configuration by 2018, with a first flight in 2020," says an ADA representative. "The AMCA will draw from what we learn with the [Hindustan Aeronautics-built] Tejas MkI and Tejas MkII."...
AERO INDIA: Advanced medium combat aircraft first flight likely in 2020

By that time 6th gen fighters will be there in the scenario !

 

[Defcon 1]

By that time 6th gen fighters will be there in the scenario !

But atleast the timeline isn't unrealistic anymore. Also, it mentions that the aircraft will be 20t. Does anyone know if they are talking about empty weight or MTOW?

 

[Apollyon]

But atleast the timeline isn't unrealistic anymore. Also, it mentions that the aircraft will be 20t. Does anyone know if they are talking about empty weight or MTOW?

Empty Weight ?
Then it would be even heavier than F-22, make no sense when we already have a heavy 5th gen fighter (PMF) under-development.

 

[A chauhan]

But atleast the timeline isn't unrealistic anymore. Also, it mentions that the aircraft will be 20t. Does anyone know if they are talking about empty weight or MTOW?

There are talks of MCA and then AMCA from 2006, today is 2013, Indian govt is really slow in its approach, at least the final configuration should have been finalised till now but this further delay.

edit: Someone please update the wiki page!

 

[p2prada]

First flight in 2020 would mean an IOC in 2029 and FOC in 2031. That's around the time USN will have their first 6th gen aircraft with USAF to follow up with a 6th gen F-22 replacement undergoing testing.

Well, I suppose that's plenty for us. We will have to start working on a PAKFA replacement by then too. So, another HAL-Sukhoi partnership for a heavy UCAV. Or we may go for it on our own.

But atleast the timeline isn't unrealistic anymore. Also, it mentions that the aircraft will be 20t. Does anyone know if they are talking about empty weight or MTOW?

MTOW of course.

As a matter of fact, MTOW is expected to be equivalent to that of the F-16 B60.

So, we can expect a 9 tonnes empty weight, 5 tonnes fuel load, 2 tonnes internal weapons and 2x90KN engines. Add another 5 tonnes of external weapons load to the mix. That's plenty in terms of T/W at loaded weight and will be better than all our other aircraft except for the PMF(FGFA) when it comes to performance.

 

[Defcon 1]

First flight in 2020 would mean an IOC in 2029 and FOC in 2031. That's around the time USN will have their first 6th gen aircraft with USAF to follow up with a 6th gen F-22 replacement undergoing testing.

Well, I suppose that's plenty for us. We will have to start working on a PAKFA replacement by then too. So, another HAL-Sukhoi partnership for a heavy UCAV. Or we may go for it on our own.



MTOW of course.

As a matter of fact, MTOW is expected to be equivalent to that of the F-16 B60.

So, we can expect a 9 tonnes empty weight, 5 tonnes fuel load, 2 tonnes internal weapons and 2x90KN engines. Add another 5 tonnes of external weapons load to the mix. That's plenty in terms of T/W at loaded weight and will be better than all our other aircraft except for the PMF(FGFA) when it comes to performance.

Why is our testing period so long? PAK FA will enter service only in 6 years after the first flight. We would have gained experience on Tejas already.

 

[p2prada]

Why is our testing period so long? PAK FA will enter service only in 6 years after the first flight. We would have gained experience on Tejas already.

Lack of experience. Twinblade explained that in the LCA thread. HAL was talking about the same. Had they gone alone on PMF, they would still be testing the aircraft 15 years after first flight.

With the level of experience and technical know how the Russians will transfer to us we can test the PMF in 4-5 years. PMF needs 5000 hours of flight testing. ADA has taken 10 years to reach 1000 hours on LCA out of 2000 required. Huge difference there.

According to ADA, design stage to first flight is 7 years followed by test flights for 9 years before the induction process starts. That's another 3-4 years. 20 years from scratch to full operational clearance.

With better experience, perhaps we will be able to achieve Russian targets for flight tests.

 

[Twinblade]

Doesn't seem to be a particularly large bird. More like 15 to 16 meters length, tops. More in the vicinity of Rafale and F-16 than EF, MiG-29 or SH. MTOW too falls in the same category of 20-23 tons.

 

[Twinblade]

By that time 6th gen fighters will be there in the scenario !

Yeah they are already contemplating to fit 6th gen elements into it

Since it was planned to have the first flight in seven years, certain concepts of the 6 {+t} {+h} generation combat aircraft would also be incorporated. It was likely to be 10 years for it to get into production for replacing MIG-29 and Mirage fighters.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-andhrapradesh/article2664570.ece

 

[sayareakd]

Lack of experience. Twinblade explained that in the LCA thread. HAL was talking about the same. Had they gone alone on PMF, they would still be testing the aircraft 15 years after first flight.

With the level of experience and technical know how the Russians will transfer to us we can test the PMF in 4-5 years. PMF needs 5000 hours of flight testing. ADA has taken 10 years to reach 1000 hours on LCA out of 2000 required. Huge difference there.

According to ADA, design stage to first flight is 7 years followed by test flights for 9 years before the induction process starts. That's another 3-4 years. 20 years from scratch to full operational clearance.

With better experience, perhaps we will be able to achieve Russian targets for flight tests.

P2P they dont have experience, but still with all those LCA flying they can easily get carried away and increase the testing to such an extent that they are going to make mistake and lose LCA resulting in closer of programme.

Other have spend time money and gain experience, we are just new kid in the block, before running we need to take baby steps first. We are getting their make no mistake.

 

[Shirman]

Some how i always feel this bird is a desi version of YF-23 BLACK WIDOW. I MEAN THE DIAMOND SHAPE WINGS DO REMIND ME OF THE SAME........

How long will it take for HAL to Fly a full scale version like HOW P.R.C. did with J-31.... I would say it should happen at 2014-15

2020 is way too long.......

 

[rahulrds1]

"Nano Material" will be used in AMCA

9:17 sec - Status Of Current Indian Military Development Projects & Road Ahead - Dr Saraswat [Aero India 2013] - YouTube

"Nano Material" - Nanomaterials - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[A chauhan]

...
According to ADA, design stage to first flight is 7 years followed by test flights for 9 years before the induction process starts. That's another 3-4 years. 20 years from scratch to full operational clearance.

With better experience, perhaps we will be able to achieve Russian targets for flight tests.

Can't they shorten that extra 9 years period ? can't we use LCA's testing experience in AMCA ?

 

[p2prada]

P2P they dont have experience, but still with all those LCA flying they can easily get carried away and increase the testing to such an extent that they are going to make mistake and lose LCA resulting in closer of programme.

Other have spend time money and gain experience, we are just new kid in the block, before running we need to take baby steps first. We are getting their make no mistake.

Any LCA crash will not affect the overall program. Especially this far into the program.

LCAs flight envelope is yet to be opened, as of today it is a bus compared to other fighter aircraft.

Most crashes happen during this particular phase because opening a flight envelope has far more risks involved than what has been happening over the last 12 years of flight testing.

Can't they shorten that extra 9 years period ? can't we use LCA's testing experience in AMCA ?

There will be massive differences in testing a twin engine aircraft compared to single engine aircraft.

LCA's experience will not see direct replication of similar techniques but the scientists will know what may be wrong and what may be right right from the design stage instead of getting it right on a trial and error basis.

For eg: It was decided last year that the LCA's entire internal estate is faulty starting with the fuel tanks to the avionics bays. They spent a year redesigning and fixing these issues. The same may not be repeated with AMCA.

So, what's taken 15 years for first flight + 15 years (what could be) for FOC on LCA (irrespective of the small financial related delays of 2-3 years) will be halved to 7 years and 9 years for AMCA.

At least the Air Chief of the time won't come up and say, "We have been dreaming about it since the last 30 years!" when AMCA comes up for induction. He will say 16 instead.

16+2 years is excellent considering even PAKFA has been a 15 year program from design to the planned FOC stage. 2002-04 to 2017-19. Even they had financial issues which delayed the program.

 

[A chauhan]

LCA's experience will not see direct replication of similar techniques but the scientists will know what may be wrong and what may be right right from the design stage instead of getting it right on a trial and error basis.

Something I wanted to hear